Before you give up on Pitino...

[mcal24]

I think the reaction has been fairly tame for a team that is 2-7 in conference play and has now lost ALL SIX close games in conference play. I think there is a happy medium between "move along there's nothing to see here" and "Pitino sucks, get him out of here". As someone who was incredibly impressed with some of the things Pitino was able to do in year 1, I am somewhere between concerned and very concerned by what we've seen in year 2. The B1G is as bad as I can remember it being, there isn't a team outside of Wisconsin who I'd feel confident about advancing to the round of 32 in the NCAA's this year. The conference was considerably better last year, but the Gophers are considerably worse. Some people point to Austin Hollins, but Austin had a really bad stretch of B1G games last year and we all know we didn't have a healthy Andre Hollins post Wisconsin...and that team still went 8-10 in conference play and probably should have 10-8. I can say Andre Hollins' defense is noticeably improved this year and that Charles Buggs has made some strides, but beyond that? We've clearly seen regression from Mathieu and I'd argue we've seen it from Walker and Eliason too. I don't think a credible claim can be made that anyone outside of Buggs/Hollins has improved an aspect of their game in a noticeable way from last season.

The other side of the coin is that Pitino has put this team in position to win games, and guys have flat out choked. Repeatedly. It's not hard to look back at these 9 games and say that the team could/should be 6-3 or 5-4 right now. The fact is they are 2-7 and coaches that are 2-7 deal with an unhappy fan base.

I agree with almost everything you say. But I don't know that the Big Ten is that much worse than last year. There might be less elite teams, but I still think this conference is as good as it gets when you look at the middle of the pack teams.

 

[Dr.Don]

Howeda...Lately you have been nothing but negative.

You used to be better than this.

GO GOPHERS!!!

 

[bga1]

Pitino is going to be a great coach here. That said, I think Tubby, who I liked and then got really, really tired of, may well have done better with this year's low end talent team by playing plodding ball. Pitino needs better players than this to play the kind of fast paced game he is playing. Let's not forget why we got Pitino, who is learning on the job to some degree. He is going to recruit well using this style of play (every recruit says they love it) and he is full of desire to win and win big. This program is in great hands long term if we are willing to see this through. Add a couple of nice spring additions- a PF and a big wing and next year's team will be better than this one and we will have a smarter coach as well.

 

[cjbfbp]

Pitino is going to be a great coach here. That said, I think Tubby, who I liked and then got really, really tired of, may well have done better with this year's low end talent team by playing plodding ball. Pitino needs better players than this to play the kind of fast paced game he is playing. Let's not forget why we got Pitino, who is learning on the job to some degree. He is going to recruit well using this style of play (every recruit says they love it) and he is full of desire to win and win big. This program is in great hands long term if we are willing to see this through. Add a couple of nice spring additions- a PF and a big wing and next year's team will be better than this one and we will have a smarter coach as well.

Yes, as a former Washington State coach said, "Every player wants to play faster, even the slow ones." However, we play in the Big Ten and no matter how many new coaches say the same thing about bringing an up tempo style, the game always bogs down to a half court defensive slog. Actually, lots of players play well in a run and gun game. It's the tough half court game that separates the men from the boys. That's even the case in the pros. Bo Ryan seems to have understood this very early in his Big Ten career and that's why his teams are consistently successful.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

This season is a washout, it's not fun anymore and honestly I'll be relieved when it's over and we can go into full-on rebuilding mode next season. Morris, Joey and Buggs will play again next year, but the group of Mason, Bakary & Gaston, joined by Jarvis, Dorsey, McBrayer, Nwanko and whoever else we bring in will be a breath of fresh air. Yes, we're going to stink again, but I can live with losing when it's young, talented guys on the court who're learning together as a team. Frankly I don't expect to be great the following season either, I'm just looking for improvement, to show some heart and play entertaining basketball. When thing get ugly, I keep telling myself that a few years down the road we may think of this group the next 'Iron Five'

 

[station19]

Pitino will do just fine. Like most coaches he will probably be better at 42 than he was at 32.

He's changing the style of play and therefore must change the type of roster.

I've never seen GH so impatient. That itself is depressing.

Get off the ledge and give it some time.

And keep the fock off my lawn.

 

[justthefacts]

I agree with almost everything you say. But I don't know that the Big Ten is that much worse than last year. There might be less elite teams, but I still think this conference is as good as it gets when you look at the middle of the pack teams.

There were a lot of ugly losses in the non-conf that say your argument is incorrect. As do KenPom (Big Ten is 5th), Sagarin (4th), and RPI (4th). Big Ten was #1 in all of those last year.

 

[jamiche]

Pitino will do just fine. Like most coaches he will probably be better at 42 than he was at 32.

He's changing the style of play and therefore must change the type of roster.

I've never seen GH so impatient. That itself is depressing.

Get off the ledge and give it some time.

And keep the fock off my lawn.

I think part of the reason for the impatience is that in his public persona Pitino was a breathe of fresh air after Tubby. He came in full of energy. He answered questions in paragraphs and was often funny. He seemed pretty honest and there wasn't a lot of coach speak. Initially, he went after some of the top recruits in the country (not just the big three), so we figured he was a recruiting whiz who could make up for the U's deficiencies. All of that raised expectations. Now we are living with the reality of a young coach who recruiting about as well as his predecessors and who is struggling with an underachieving roster for which he bears some responsibility. He will learn and grow from this. I think he's very talented (and inexperienced) so I hope that we get to benefit from his growing pains.

 

[CourtneyJames4]

While we're having fun with numbers.

Coach A 1st 4 full years as a Head Coach:
14-19
19-16
13-19
23-12 NCAA Tournament


Coach A is.......Pat Knight. Might as well make some non Hall of Coach comparisons too.

 

[XMan]

we need him to go out and find a Juco power forward next year that can give us a ton of minutes. Easier said than done.

 

[BigGopherFan]

I'm not giving up in Pitino at this point, but the program is reaching new lows this season with a large core of players that won 20+ games last season. It would be idiotic to ask for Pitino's head, but this season's disaster is going to turn up the heat moving forward. This program doesn't have enough equity to expect Final 4 runs this early in his tenure, but still has enough pride expect progress. This is a major step back this season, and we aren't just talking about wins and losses. Pitino seems to have recruited several knucklehead players and their departures do not make the program look good, regardless of who's "fault" it was as to why they left.

 

[bga1]

I'm not giving up in Pitino at this point, but the program is reaching new lows this season with a large core of players that won 20+ games last season. It would be idiotic to ask for Pitino's head, but this season's disaster is going to turn up the heat moving forward. This program doesn't have enough equity to expect Final 4 runs this early in his tenure, but still has enough pride expect progress. This is a major step back this season, and we aren't just talking about wins and losses. Pitino seems to have recruited several knucklehead players and their departures do not make the program look good, regardless of who's "fault" it was as to why they left.

What Pitino did with last year's team was amazing in my view. That success is now weighing against him in a lot of people's minds. How could we go backwards? I for one was wrong about the loss of Austin and even Oto who were probably the two toughest kids on last year's team. It turns out that this team has zero toughness when adding the loss of McNeil who was also a physical player and Martin who was supposed to bring that element at the PF. At this point it is on Pitino to bring in guys who have a stronger mentality in this next class and the one to follow.

 

[book]

Is it time to start Buggs. Morris drives me nuts!

 

[BigGopherFan]

What Pitino did with last year's team was amazing in my view. That success is now weighing against him in a lot of people's minds. How could we go backwards? I for one was wrong about the loss of Austin and even Oto who were probably the two toughest kids on last year's team. It turns out that this team has zero toughness when adding the loss of McNeil who was also a physical player and Martin who was supposed to bring that element at the PF. At this point it is on Pitino to bring in guys who have a stronger mentality in this next class and the one to follow.

I agree that the loss of Austin is effecting this team. Not Oto, though. He would have been a pretty good D2 player. I never really think this season has anything to do Oto's absence.

 

[60's Guy]

bga1...I agree with your points in your last couple of posts

What Pitino did with last year's team was amazing in my view. That success is now weighing against him in a lot of people's minds. How could we go backwards? I for one was wrong about the loss of Austin and even Oto who were probably the two toughest kids on last year's team. It turns out that this team has zero toughness when adding the loss of McNeil who was also a physical player and Martin who was supposed to bring that element at the PF. At this point it is on Pitino to bring in guys who have a stronger mentality in this next class and the one to follow.

I was however, a little concerned last night. I thought Pitino was not very helpful to his team in last four minutes.
He dwelled on mistakes rather focusing on the next play. as a result, his fragile team spiraled. I think the pressure of knowing we needed that game to turn things around for real was too much for him at the crucial times.

In addition in the past he has put the players in position to win more so than last night. We did not counter Penn State's
gambling trapping pressure defense with any antidote I could determine other than turnovers. What was the plan?

Broken record: he identified the team weakness in the off-season as mental toughness. Probably a mistake in hindsight. Better left unsaid with this group because they just do not have the ability to perform at the end of games and now they know it. We need better players. The unexpected loss of McNeil is the difference in the season. His 5,6,7,8 points gets us wins in several of the losses. He had some toughness was clearly our best perimeter defender which also impacts the outcome of games.

 

[e.bigelow]

Not giving up on Pitino. We have had some really unfortunate games just not go our way. I mean, 6 out of 7 losses by two possesions or less? That is just crazy. We are also a really thin team as far as depth is concerned. It is getting better giving players some increased minutes getting ready for next year, but the rest of this season is probably lost.

I will admit, some of the losses, including last night, have been a painful brand of basketball to watch. Lots & lots of sloppy play. Hopefully that improves throughout the rest of the B1G Ten season.

 

[Golden_Sloth]

Recruiting

This season has been disappointing but I'm still happy with where the program is going. Not having McNeil, Martin, and Gaston just getting here is hurting us more than people realize I think. Those guys were supposed to play important roles that we aren't able to fill with our current roster. We don't have a physical 4, and we don't have a great perimeter defender.

As long as Pitino continues to recruit well, we will be a good team in the future. It takes time to transition to a completely new system, and frankly last year we overachieved a bit.

To illustrate how our recruiting has been improving, here are all of Pitino's recruits, in order of 247 composite rankings. The astute observer will notice that Pitino's best recruits haven't gotten here yet.

'15 Dorsey - .9404
'16 Hurt - .9217
'15 McBrayer - .8942
'15 Nwankwo - .8849
'15 Johnson - .8812
'14 Mason - .8775
'14 Morris - .8728
'14 Martin - .8565
'13 McNiel - .8523
'14 Konate - .8378
'13 Mathieu - .8300
'14 Diedhou - .8163
'13 King - NR
'13 Smith - NR

Mason has been a high impact player as a freshman, because he is our most talented recruit at this point that fit's Pitino's system. The '15 and '16 classes will bring more and more players like Mason. Frankly with a lot of our roster we're still fitting square pegs in round holes. If we're still under .500 in '16 and '17, that's when maybe I'll start doubting Pitino.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Not giving up on Pitino. We have had some really unfortunate games just not go our way. I mean, 6 out of 7 losses by two possesions or less? That is just crazy. We are also a really thin team as far as depth is concerned. It is getting better giving players some increased minutes getting ready for next year, but the rest of this season is probably lost.

I will admit, some of the losses, including last night, have been a painful brand of basketball to watch. Lots & lots of sloppy play. Hopefully that improves throughout the rest of the B1G Ten season.

"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action."

Blowing one or two late chances is unfortunate. When it happens as often and regularly as it does to us, it is not just something happening to us, it is something systemic. Whether it is a coaching issue, or a player issue, or a combination, there is some reason why our team is woefully ineffective in late games. I'd love to see us pick it up here, but we need to find a way to be tougher on the road, we need to find a way to drive the stake in the coffin with a late lead (we actually did do that a couple times), and we need to find the heart to battle through a close back and forth game and come out on top (preferably against a better team than Furman).

 

[howeda7]

Howeda...Lately you have been nothing but negative.

You used to be better than this.

GO GOPHERS!!!

What did I say that was negative in this thread? If the two seasons were reversed we'd feel better about things? I think that's true.

 

[Gopherboner]

Tough to see so many disgruntled posters. We're a few buckets and a couple of free throws away from being on top of this conference. Is it frustrating that we're 2-7, YES. But some poeple, need to calm down. Let's let coach get his guys in here that fit his system, give it a couple of years, and then judge... It doesn't happen in 18 months. I would bet that most Gopher fans would agree that Clem was one of the best coach's we've had here and his records in his first 2 seasons were 9-19 & 10-18. His 5th and 6th year were 12-16 & 16-16. Things can take time...

 

[scools12]

I think part of the reason for the impatience is that in his public persona Pitino was a breathe of fresh air after Tubby. He came in full of energy. He answered questions in paragraphs and was often funny. He seemed pretty honest and there wasn't a lot of coach speak. Initially, he went after some of the top recruits in the country (not just the big three), so we figured he was a recruiting whiz who could make up for the U's deficiencies. All of that raised expectations. Now we are living with the reality of a young coach who recruiting about as well as his predecessors and who is struggling with an underachieving roster for which he bears some responsibility. He will learn and grow from this. I think he's very talented (and inexperienced) so I hope that we get to benefit from his growing pains.

For me the recruiting will be interesting to follow over the next few seasons. We all probably thought the young energetic coach with an exciting brand of basketball style will be a draw to top high school players in the country. That still may happen but if recruiting remains about as well as the predecessors the program will continue to be a perennial bubble team.

 

[e.bigelow]

This season has been disappointing but I'm still happy with where the program is going. Not having McNeil, Martin, and Gaston just getting here is hurting us more than people realize I think. Those guys were supposed to play important roles that we aren't able to fill with our current roster. We don't have a physical 4, and we don't have a great perimeter defender.

As long as Pitino continues to recruit well, we will be a good team in the future. It takes time to transition to a completely new system, and frankly last year we overachieved a bit.

To illustrate how our recruiting has been improving, here are all of Pitino's recruits, in order of 247 composite rankings. The astute observer will notice that Pitino's best recruits haven't gotten here yet.

'15 Dorsey - .9404
'16 Hurt - .9217
'15 McBrayer - .8942
'15 Nwankwo - .8849
'15 Johnson - .8812
'14 Mason - .8775
'14 Morris - .8728
'14 Martin - .8565
'13 McNiel - .8523
'14 Konate - .8378
'13 Mathieu - .8300
'14 Diedhou - .8163
'13 King - NR
'13 Smith - NR

Mason has been a high impact player as a freshman, because he is our most talented recruit at this point that fit's Pitino's system. The '15 and '16 classes will bring more and more players like Mason. Frankly with a lot of our roster we're still fitting square pegs in round holes. If we're still under .500 in '16 and '17, that's when maybe I'll start doubting Pitino.

Defintely agree with the bold, Golden_Sloth.

 

[HOOP DREAMS]

We don't have a physical 4

What are you talking about... just the way King puffs his chest out and holds his arms out wide from his body intimidates the hell out of the opposing PFs.

 

[bga1]

For me the recruiting will be interesting to follow over the next few seasons. We all probably thought the young energetic coach with an exciting brand of basketball style will be a draw to top high school players in the country. That still may happen but if recruiting remains about as well as the predecessors the program will continue to be a perennial bubble team.

The number of prospects who list us as showing interest is astounding by comparison to the Tubby years. I'd say that Pitino and staff have shown interest in 50-60 guys on those lists on a per year basis where you would find less than half that on a Tubby list. these guys are much more active. Will it pay? We'll see, but I don't think you could ask for a coaching staff to work it any harder than these guys do.

 

[Winasota Gopher]

The number of prospects who list us as showing interest is astounding by comparison to the Tubby years. I'd say that Pitino and staff have shown interest in 50-60 guys on those lists on a per year basis where you would find less than half that on a Tubby list. these guys are much more active. Will it pay? We'll see, but I don't think you could ask for a coaching staff to work it any harder than these guys do.

Could that be a byproduct of social media?

 

[Tim1406]

Not giving up on Pitino. We have had some really unfortunate games just not go our way. I mean, 6 out of 7 losses by two possesions or less? That is just crazy. We are also a really thin team as far as depth is concerned. It is getting better giving players some increased minutes getting ready for next year, but the rest of this season is probably lost.

Sometimes it reminds me of the timberwolves a few years back who would be leading through 3 quarters and then the other team decided to show up. I don't think this gophers team is like that. I think it is more closer to that Michigan state football team from 2012 which lost 6 games 5 of them by a total of 13 points. In 2013 they won the BIG ten with a new quarterback.

I'm not saying I think this team will win the big ten just saying that the close losses will do wonders for Mason, Buggs and Morris next year and beyond in terms of his mental toughness. Just wish we could win a few so losing those games doesn't become a habit.

Coach A 1st 4 full years as a Head Coach:
14-19
19-16
13-19
23-12 NCAA Tournament

Coach A is.......Pat Knight. Might as well make some non Hall of Coach comparisons too.

Anyway to the poster to put up the Pat Knight record. Pitino is doing better in this down year than Knight did in year 1 or 3. So there is that. Also Pat Knight coached his 4th year at Lamar and not at texas tech where he was to start.

 

[GophersInIowa]

I'm not giving up in Pitino at this point, but the program is reaching new lows this season with a large core of players that won 20+ games last season. It would be idiotic to ask for Pitino's head, but this season's disaster is going to turn up the heat moving forward. This program doesn't have enough equity to expect Final 4 runs this early in his tenure, but still has enough pride expect progress. This is a major step back this season, and we aren't just talking about wins and losses. Pitino seems to have recruited several knucklehead players and their departures do not make the program look good, regardless of who's "fault" it was as to why they left.

How is this even close to being true? It's been an extremely disappointing team but overall it has been much worse in the past.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

How is this even close to being true? It's been an extremely disappointing team but overall it has been much worse in the past.

Its on pace to be pretty ugly. Halfway through the B1G season, we are on pace to win one more conference game than Jim Molinari did in his forgettable season (and he had two less games to do it in). Obviously, the second half could be better for us, but it could also be worse.

 

[BleedGopher]

Not having McNeil, Martin, and Gaston just getting here is hurting us more than people realize I think. Those guys were supposed to play important roles that we aren't able to fill with our current roster. We don't have a physical 4, and we don't have a great perimeter defender.

I agree that the lack of contribution out of 4.5 scholarships every single game is huge issue. I think that in large part falls on Pitino. I disagree that "these guys were supposed to play important roles" - as it relates to Martin and Gaston. The only adjectives used with either of those guys were raw and potential. We recruited three guys who can best be described as raw, and one guy who had to RS this year but could also be described as higher risk, due to his past. The raw guys haven't developed quickly, one left and the higher risk recruit didn't make it to the first exhibition game.

Go Gophers!!

 

[bga1]

Could that be a byproduct of social media?

No.