Why did Wisconsin get Las Vegas over us???

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MplsGopher said:
Last para: OK, I buy that.

I don't buy that if we finished 9-3, even if ranked in 20-25, that the Big Ten would've (arbitrarily, I think) "lifted" the Outback up into a special tier with the Citrus and only allowed those two to selected between Iowa and Gophers.


That's essentially what it would have to be, for you and Maxy to be correct.


I can't disprove it. Just seems far-fetched to me.
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What? The Outback Bowl is already considered in a tier with the Citrus Bowl. It's not arbitrary. At 9-3....either of Purdue or Wisconsin at 8-4 could have jumped the Gophers, but not Iowa at 10-2. Penn State could jump Purdue or Wisconsin, pushing them to the Guaranteed Rate/Pinstripe....but not the Gophers.

Much like in 2014....the Gophers were 8-4 and went to the Citrus Bowl over a 9-3 Nebraska team who were sent to the Holiday Bowl. Under the two game rule....neither Maryland or Iowa at 7-5 could have gone to the Citrus Bowl.
 

I don't know that "we" the common people know what the bowl tiers are. But what I think is clear is there are tiers vs. rankings. So you have:
- CFP (Tier A across conferences)
- NY6 (Tier B across conferences)
- NYD (Tier 1 for conference) - Citrus and Outback
- Mid-bowls (Tier 2 for conference) - Vegas, Nashville, NYC, Phoenix, and I assume Detroit

MD couldn't jump us to go Outback and had we won 9 games, allegedly neither could have PSU. However, within the tier any team can be placed for any number of reasons (win rules aside). They chose to try and maximize attendance:
- WI to Vegas : travels extremely well, have experience with WI and basketball, biggest name left
- Purdue to Nashville: drivable
- MD to NYC: proximity, know no one is coming to this game from anywhere else
- MN to Phoenix: large alumni base in Phoenix and warm destination (vs. Nashville or NYC)

Given the B1G's control over placement, I don't think they "see" any hierarchy in those bowls below NYD. They're all just a pot of bowls to put teams in and they did so like they thought would drive best gate ($$$). Instead of "we got the #8 bowl" it's "we got a tier 2 bowl same as others".

I'm less angry today. It's not a great process because it makes for bad matchups when other conferences still fill via ranking and performance and really takes away from the prestige of getting a NYD bowl when you can have a losing conference record. Upside, we can't go back to this bowl for some time (if they follow their rules about repeats).
 

stocker08 said:
What? The Outback Bowl is already considered in a tier with the Citrus Bowl.
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So you're saying they only allowed the Citrus and Outback to select from Iowa ..... and Penn State?

Come on ....


You only get to have it one of two ways:

a) Citrus and Outback are in the special highest tier, and only get to select from the two best teams remaining

or

b) Outback is with Vegas and Music City, and can select from any remaining teams after Citrus.


I'm going with b, unless you can prove otherwise.


I can't disprove any of your hypotheses. They're all valid, without any further evidence.
 

One other factor that I could believe would play a roll:

if there are teams ranked in the final CFP rankings, those ranked teams have to be selected first, in order, and then the rest of the eligible unranked teams are a free-for-all.


That I could buy.
 

MplsGopher said:
So you're saying they only allowed the Citrus and Outback to select from Iowa ..... and Penn State?

Come on ....


You only get to have it one of two ways:

a) Citrus and Outback are in the special highest tier, and only get to select from the two best teams remaining

or

b) Outback is with Vegas and Music City, and can select from any remaining teams after Citrus.


I'm going with b, unless you can prove otherwise.


I can't disprove any of your hypotheses. They're all valid, without any further evidence.
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How dense are you? The Citrus/Outback Bowl had to take Iowa. Two more wins than anyone not in the NY6 games. But at 7-5, the Penn State team was able to jump any of the 8-4 teams.

You only need to be able to add/subtract two. What the hell is your issue?
 


stocker08 said:
The Citrus/Outback Bowl had to take Iowa.
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So this special tier of two bowl games only had to consider one team first .... because? They had 9+ wins? At 9+ wins, you hit a special threshold where the top two non-NY6 bowls have to consider you specially, first, before being allowed to reach down into the "open pool" of non-9+-win teams?

You're just making shit up out of thin air.
 

MplsGopher said:
So this special tier of two bowl games only had to consider one team first .... because? They had 9 wins? At 9 wins, you hit a special threshold where the top two non-NY6 bowls have to consider you specially, first, before being allowed to reach down into the "open pool" of non-9-win teams?

You're just making shit up out of thin air.
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Iowa had 10 wins. And adding/subtracting two from the remaining teams is not a difficult task. Seems as though you need help from a medical professional or some other type of specialist to help with your neurosis.
 

stocker08 said:
Iowa had 10 wins.
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Yes, I edited the post to say 9+, but you're too fast.

stocker08 said:
And adding/subtracting two from the remaining teams is not a difficult task.
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This is your scenario.

Citrus/Outback - special top non-NY6 bowls
Have to select from 9+ wins teams first (note: it has to be 9+, because that's how it was said in the original post for how the Gopher would've moved up), with Citrus choosing first then Outback next:
Iowa 10-3

Citrus goes first, must select Iowa.

Outback has no one left to pick, drops down to the next tier and selects first from any of the remaining teams.

(If there had been no 9+ win teams, then Citrus would dropped down just the same and Citrus and Outback would select 1 and 2 of all remaining teams)



It's perfectly valid ..... assuming you believe that they would have a completely arbitrary 9+ win threshold.

I just think that's arbitrary to a silly degree. There's nothing at all special about having 9 wins.



What I would be much more willing to buy, is if they made a special pool for teams that were ranked in the final CFP rankings, having to get selected first, before the rest.

That I could buy.


Don't buy the 9+ thing, any farther than I can throw it.
 

Based on payout, the Quick Lane bowl is actually better than the Guaranteed Rate Bowl, if this site is correct.

www.collegefootballpoll.com

College Football Poll.com

College football rankings and accurate weekly picks. Exclusive content, features, and analysis.
www.collegefootballpoll.com www.collegefootballpoll.com
 



MplsGopher said:
Yes, I edited the post to say 9+, but you're too fast.


This is your scenario.

Citrus/Outback - special top non-NY6 bowls
Have to select from 9+ wins teams first (note: it has to be 9+, because that's how it was said in the original post for how the Gopher would've moved up), with Citrus choosing first then Outback next:
Iowa 10-3

Citrus goes first, must select Iowa.

Outback has no one left to pick, drops down to the next tier and selects first from any of the remaining teams.

(If there had been no 9+ win teams, then Citrus would dropped down just the same and Citrus and Outback would select 1 and 2 of all remaining teams)



It's perfectly valid ..... assuming you believe that they would have a completely arbitrary 9+ win threshold.

I just think that's arbitrary to a silly degree. There's nothing at all special about having 9 wins.



What I would be much more willing to buy, is if they made a special pool for teams that were ranked in the final CFP rankings, having to get selected first, before the rest.

That I could buy.


Don't buy the 9+ thing, any farther than I can throw it.
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At nine wins, Penn State at seven wouldn't have been able to jump the Gophers. Best they could have done would be the Music City or Vegas Bowls over the 8-4 Badgers or Boilermakers. Either of those teams could have jumped the Gophers, but the Gophers wouldn't have been able to fall below the Music City or Vegas bowls.....because that would have meant that Penn State jumped them with two less wins.

This isn't difficult. This is all VERY basic math.
 


stocker08 said:
At nine wins, Penn State at seven wouldn't have been able to jump the Gophers.
...
Either of those teams could have jumped the Gophers,
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Why? Says who?


Also, let's say that Mich St was just outside the NY6.

Both MSU and Iowa have 10 wins.


You're saying that Citrus would have been allowed to select Iowa over Mich St? Why? Says who?
 

The Daily Gopher has a long article detailing the bowl selection procedure.

a few points -

The B1G arranges its bowl-eligible teams in tiers. for this season
Michigan is a CFP team
next tier is OSU, MSU and IA
next tier is MN, Pur, WI
and then PSU and Mary

there is a "2-more-wins" rule. If the Gophers were 9-3, a 7-5 Penn State Team could not jump the Gophers. But, since the Gophers were 8-4, PSU is allowed to jump the Gophers.

Wisconsin has never played in the Las Vegas Bowl before. The B1G has a policy that calls for each of the affiliated bowls to feature 5 different B1G teams over a 6-year-period. Which also hurt the Gophers for Outback bowl consideration.

Music City wanted Purdue because of driving distance. the 3rd-highest attendance in Music City Bowl history had Purdue as a participant.

As noted, Maryland played WVU in non-conf, and the B1G wants to avoid rematches.

And, the "Gophers travel well" argument is a recent development.
 



short ornery norwegian said:
The Daily Gopher has a long article detailing the bowl selection procedure.

a few points -

The B1G arranges its bowl-eligible teams in tiers. for this season
Michigan is a CFP team
next tier is OSU, MSU and IA
next tier is MN, Pur, WI
and then PSU and Mary

there is a "2-more-wins" rule. If the Gophers were 9-3, a 7-5 Penn State Team could not jump the Gophers. But, since the Gophers were 8-4, PSU is allowed to jump the Gophers.

Wisconsin has never played in the Las Vegas Bowl before. The B1G has a policy that calls for each of the affiliated bowls to feature 5 different B1G teams over a 6-year-period. Which also hurt the Gophers for Outback bowl consideration.

Music City wanted Purdue because of driving distance. the 3rd-highest attendance in Music City Bowl history had Purdue as a participant.

As noted, Maryland played WVU in non-conf, and the B1G wants to avoid rematches.

And, the "Gophers travel well" argument is a recent development.
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These are conference tie-ins and tiers, it's weird to me that they wouldn't use conference record for this.
 

MplsGopher said:
Why? Says who?


Also, let's say that Mich St was just outside the NY6.

Both MSU and Iowa have 10 wins.


You're saying that Citrus would have been allowed to select Iowa over Mich St? Why? Says who?
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Two ten win teams? I don't see the problem. Seriously.....either you are trolling or you have some sort of disorder better left to professionals.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
The B1G arranges its bowl-eligible teams in tiers.
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Not correct.

It puts its bowl games in tiers, not its teams.

Bowls within tiers perhaps get to select first. But what is completely unknown and not understood, at this time, is the actual recipe for ordering teams to be selected.


There is an assertion about a vague rule regarding two wins. Would like to see this stated clearly on some Big Ten document.
 

stocker08 said:
Two ten win teams? I don't see the problem.
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Citrus selects before Outback, correct?

Clarify for me, in your opinion of how it works, if the Citrus would be allowed to select #15 10-3 Iowa over let's say #13 10-2 Michigan State.

Yes? If so, why. Because they both have 10 wins? That's it?

No? Why?
 

MplsGopher said:
Citrus selects before Outback, correct?

Clarify for me, in your opinion of how it works, if the Citrus would be allowed to select #15 10-3 Iowa over let's say #13 10-2 Michigan State.

Yes? If so, why. Because they both have 10 wins? That's it?

No? Why?
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Number of wins is the only thing that appears to have a guideline in place. I don't understand how you are having such a difficult time with this. This guideline doesn't appear to have been bastardized....so what's your problem?
 

stocker08 said:
Number of wins is the only thing that appears to have a guideline in place.
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I don't believe that.

Seems pretty silly, and my example likely proves there is more to the story than just that very simple ordering rule.


But, that could be the case. I can't disprove anything, because it's all a big secret and the Big Ten doesn't want fans to know how it truly goes down, quite obviously.
 

MplsGopher said:
I don't believe that.

Seems pretty silly, and my example likely proves there is more to the story than just that very simple ordering rule.


But, that could be the case. I can't disprove anything, because it's all a big secret and the Big Ten doesn't want fans to know how it truly goes down, quite obviously.
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Got it. So this entire meltdown is because you simply don't believe it. But since the guideline wasn't broken....you really have nothing to hang your hat on.
 

stocker08 said:
because you simply don't believe it.
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Correct.

I don't believe that 9-3 Gophers get selected over 7-5 Penn St.

That was entirely the premise of Maxy's post, that started this chain.


Glad we took 25 posts to get here. We can agree to disagree, I guess.

Or if you can actually disprove it, please do so with actual evidence.
 

MplsGopher said:
Correct.

I don't believe that 9-3 Gophers get selected over 7-5 Penn St.

That was entirely the premise of Maxy's post, that started this chain.


Glad we took 25 posts to get here. We can agree to disagree, I guess.

Or if you can actually disprove it, please do so with actual evidence.
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Don't need to disprove it.....because the Gophers didn't have nine wins and the "two game" guideline wasn't broken.
 


MplsGopher said:
Of course not, you're going to believe what you want to believe, without being able to supply evidence.
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I have evidence in that the guideline wasn't broken. You are the one with zero evidence.
 

MplsGopher said:
Not correct.

It puts its bowl games in tiers, not its teams.

Bowls within tiers perhaps get to select first. But what is completely unknown and not understood, at this time, is the actual recipe for ordering teams to be selected.


There is an assertion about a vague rule regarding two wins. Would like to see this stated clearly on some Big Ten document.
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Read the article I mentioned. it spells all of this out in great detail. I posted the entire article in a different bowl game thread.

and the 2-win rule is a fact.
 



MplsGopher said:
So you're saying they only allowed the Citrus and Outback to select from Iowa ..... and Penn State?

Come on ....


You only get to have it one of two ways:

a) Citrus and Outback are in the special highest tier, and only get to select from the two best teams remaining

or

b) Outback is with Vegas and Music City, and can select from any remaining teams after Citrus.


I'm going with b, unless you can prove otherwise.


I can't disprove any of your hypotheses. They're all valid, without any further evidence.
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I think it can change each year and B1G is able to dictate. Based on the records this year. Iowa was offered to Citrus and Outback was lumped with the rest of the bowls and given first choice. B1G likely gave a lot of the input to where teams would go and travel well. It all makes sense.

Had MN been 9-3 and ranked, Iowa and MN might have been offered to Citrus and Outback. They may have included Pur/WI in that conversation as well. Penn State may not have been included if there was a 9-3 team in there.

We will never know and people also need to realize that bowls and B1G don't care about standings past the Division champs when assigning bowls. They don't care that MN beat Pur/WI. They just look at records and lump teams into tiers and assign games.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
I think it can change each year and B1G is able to dictate. Based on the records this year. Iowa was offered to Citrus and Outback was lumped with the rest of the bowls and given first choice. B1G likely gave a lot of the input to where teams would go and travel well. It all makes sense.

Had MN been 9-3 and ranked, Iowa and MN might have been offered to Citrus and Outback. They may have included Pur/WI in that conversation as well. Penn State may not have been included if there was a 9-3 team in there.

We will never know and people also need to realize that bowls and B1G don't care about standings past the Division champs when assigning bowls. They don't care that MN beat Pur/WI. They just look at records and lump teams into tiers and assign games.
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This is a far, far more reasonable take.

Probably the best we'll be able to do. Appreciate it
 


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