Why did Wisconsin get Las Vegas over us???

Donate To GopherHole
Word said:
They are different, that's for sure. Vegas is bigger, more expensive, and has gambling. Nashville is geared toward live music (most of it really good, and I don't even like country). If you just mean Vegas is bigger, sure, it has the advantage. Otherwise I'd say Nashville is every bit as much of a party town, if not more so. I do like Vegas too. The architecture is amazing and there are some great restaurants and shows.

You should give Nashville a try. You may enjoy yourself.
Click to expand...
I've done Nashville, the music is amazing. Austin, TX as well.
 

discochris said:
Would they have been allowed? Possibly.
Would they have chosen MN over IA? No, of course not.
Click to expand...
Why not? We beat Wisconsin, which was impressive according to the Las Vegas bowl CEO, and Iowa was coming off an embarrassing loss to Michigan, and had lost to Wisc earlier. (As well as Purdue)

Do Iowa fans also travel really well?
 


MGGopher said:
If MN had 9 wins they couldn't have been "jumped" by PSU
Click to expand...
I buy that this can be a factor or consideration. One of many.

I don't buy that it is a hard and fast rule that can't be broken. If someone can show an official Big Ten document saying as such, I will admit I was wrong.

Daily Gopher can just cite "sources" and dead end you that way. Very easy way for them report what they think is right, without having to actually back it up.
 



MplsGopher said:
Why not? We beat Wisconsin, which was impressive according to the Las Vegas bowl CEO, and Iowa was coming off an embarrassing loss to Michigan, and had lost to Wisc earlier. (As well as Purdue)

Do Iowa fans also travel really well?
Click to expand...
I suspect because even though they got pounded, Iowa was still in the B1G championship game, which does make them higher profile to a bowl selector, at least this year. So while yes, had the Gophers won an additional game, the Citrus could have chosen us over Iowa, it seems unlikely that they would.

I think Iowa fans do travel well, but I can't be certain.
 

Absolutely makes sense to me that the Gophers "let it be known" that if they weren't eligible or picked for the Citrus or Outback, they wanted Arizona.

1) it appeases/is an outright concession to, all the snowbirds/big boosters who go down to AZ for the winter
2) it "should be" the easiest bowl game to win, of the non-Citrus/Outback bowls.
(3) especially considering that we're going to lose some of our best players to Senior Bowl/NFL prep)


10 years from now, what are people going to look back most easily to and remember? The final W-L record. That is what will ultimately matter.

People aren't going to nitpick (or even likely remember) that we got to 9-4 based on winning the lowest bowl game.


Fleck wants the win, and to move on. And he may not even be "wrong" about that choice.
 

discochris said:
I suspect because even though they got pounded, Iowa was still in the B1G championship game, which does make them higher profile to a bowl selector, at least this year. So while yes, had the Gophers won an additional game, the Citrus could have chosen us over Iowa, it seems unlikely that they would.

I think Iowa fans do travel well, but I can't be certain.
Click to expand...
So other than the fan traveling part, your argument is just that they were in the Big Ten championship game.

Michigan State wasn't in the Big Ten championship game.


But if they had been ranked #13 at 10-2, while Iowa was #15 at 10-3 ... I would not at all be surprised that Mich St would be in the Citrus.


The only hill I'm ready to die on is: there is more to the story. There are many factors that go into it. It's not just a really simple thing of: 1) total wins, 2) "2 win rule" (that no one can officially source), 3) no same bowl in a five year span.
 

MplsGopher said:
Absolutely makes sense to me that the Gophers "let it be known" that if they weren't eligible or picked for the Citrus or Outback, they wanted Arizona.

1) it appeases/is an outright concession to, all the snowbirds/big boosters who go down to AZ for the winter
2) it "should be" the easiest bowl game to win, of the non-Citrus/Outback bowls.
(3) especially considering that we're going to lose some of our best players to Senior Bowl/NFL prep)


10 years from now, what are people going to look back most easily to and remember? The final W-L record. That is what will ultimately matter.

People aren't going to nitpick (or even likely remember) that we got to 9-4 based on winning the lowest bowl game.


Fleck wants the win, and to move on. And he may not even be "wrong" about that choice.
Click to expand...
I'm starting to agree with this assessment as well. Just win the game.
 



Another thing is, they can use this to try to motivate the players.

"They disrespected you!!! Let's show them they were wrong!!"

When the whole time it was asked for.
 

MplsGopher said:
So other than the fan traveling part, your argument is just that they were in the Big Ten championship game.

Michigan State wasn't in the Big Ten championship game.


But if they had been ranked #13 at 10-2, while Iowa was #15 at 10-3 ... I would not at all be surprised that Mich St would be in the Citrus.


The only hill I'm ready to die on is: there is more to the story. There are many factors that go into it. It's not just a really simple thing of: 1) total wins, 2) "2 win rule" (that no one can officially source), 3) no same bowl in a five year span.
Click to expand...
https://s3.amazonaws.com/bigten.org/documents/2019/10/7/2019_Bowl_Determination_Procedures.pdf

Here is what I found on selection. It's as simple as they group pods/tiers and then assign based on the criteria. In your example, MSU and IA would have been in a tier and offered to Citrus and Outback with 10 wins.
 

MplsGopher said:
:ROFLMAO:

The Daily Gopher is the same thing as an official Big Ten document, now. Good to know
Click to expand...

The Daily Gopher has more connections and better info than you....a random chud with nothing.
 

SEC bowls are interesting. Not many of those locations that I would love to go to.

Like the B1G they got 3 teams into the CFP/NY6 Alabama, Georgia, Ole Miss.

Then they have 9-3 Kentucky playing 10-3 Iowa

8-4 Texas A&M gets 10-3 Wake in Jacksonville
8-4 Arkansas gets 7-5 Penn State in Orlando
7-5 Miss. St. gets 6-6 Louisville in Dallas
7-5 Tenn. gets 8-4 Purdue in Nashville
6-6 Missouri get 8-3 Army in Fort Worth
6-6 Florida gets 8-4 UCF in Tampa
6-6 Auburn gets 11-2 Houston in Birmingham
6-6 South Carolina gets 6-6 North Carolina in Charlotte
6-6 LSU gets 7-5 Kansas State in Houston

Good thing they got 4 non-conference games to get to 6-6 and fill bowl games.

At the P5 level:

14 Teams won 10+ games
3 Teams won 9 games
27 teams won 6-8 games
 



MaxyJR1 said:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/bigten.org/documents/2019/10/7/2019_Bowl_Determination_Procedures.pdf

Here is what I found on selection. It's as simple as they group pods/tiers and then assign based on the criteria. In your example, MSU and IA would have been in a tier and offered to Citrus and Outback with 10 wins.
Click to expand...
Apologies for delay in responding to this.

Thanks for this link. How did you find this??

I'm certain that, somewhere, the exact same document exists for 2021 as well. Maybe even somewhere on bigten .org's AWS hosting, but the address certainly doesn't show up on Google search and going to bigten .org and searching there doesn't show it either.

I think it's reasonable to assume the 2021 version is quite similar, just updated with the new bowls for this cycle of contracts over 2020-2025 (details here: https://bigten.org/news/2019/6/4/fo...st-11-different-bowls-across-the-country.aspx )

The last paragraph of that link:
The Big Ten’s 2020-25 bowl lineup will also feature the same selection process that has been used since 2014 to ensure outstanding bowl matchups and fresh postseason destinations. Each bowl partner will work with the Big Ten to create the best possible matchup based upon an agreed set of parameters, with final approval by the conference office for all team selections. The Citrus, Outback, Music City, New Era Pinstripe, Cheez-It Guaranteed Rate, Redbox and Quick Lane Bowls will feature a Big Ten team in each year of the agreement, while the Las Vegas and Belk Mayo Bowls will rotate annually and each feature three teams over the six-year agreement.


So let's examine this document.

- the words "tier", "pod", and "group" do not appear in the document
- the top three bullet points: the first is just marketing/boasting, but the second two are relevant:
• Selection parameters agreed to by the conference and bowls ensure fresh and diverse experiences and destinations for students and fans.
• Big Ten schools will not go to the same bowl in back-to-back years (except for Rose Bowl and CFP bowls), and restrictions on multiple and/or consecutive appearances within states or regions.

- then we have
BIG TEN BOWL SELECTION PROCEDURE
For all non-CFP partners, bowl will request a Big Ten school, subject to Conference approval based on selection parameters.

- then it lists the additional selection parameters that apply for each bowl (the CFP and Rose are what they are, no need for showing this here)
VRBO CITRUS BOWL (Orlando, Fla.) or CAPITAL ONE ORANGE BOWL (Miami, Fla.)
1. When not hosting national semifinal game, the Orange Bowl will select the highest-ranked team from the Big Ten, SEC or Notre Dame to face an ACC team.
2. Citrus Bowl will feature at least five different Big Ten schools over six-year agreement.
OUTBACK BOWL (Tampa, Fla.)
1. Will feature at least five different Big Ten schools during the six-year agreement.
SAN DIEGO COUNTY CREDIT UNION HOLIDAY BOWL (San Diego, Calif.)
1. Will feature at least five different Big Ten schools during the six-year agreement.
FRANKLIN AMERICAN MORTGAGE MUSIC CITY BOWL (Nashville, Tenn.) or TAXSLAYER GATOR BOWL (Jacksonville, Fla.)
1. Either Music City or Gator Bowl will select Big Ten school in 2019.
2. Big Ten will play in three Music City Bowls and three TaxSlayer Gator Bowls during the six-year agreement.
3. No Big Ten school will play in more than one Music City Bowl and one TaxSlayer Gator Bowl during the six-year agreement.
NEW ERA PINSTRIPE BOWL (New York, N.Y.)
1. Goal is to have eight different Big Ten schools participate in eight years, with a minimum of six different Big Ten schools playing in the Pinstripe Bowl during the eight-year agreement.
REDBOX BOWL (Santa Clara, Calif.)
1. Will feature at least five different Big Ten schools during the six-year agreement.
QUICK LANE BOWL (Detroit, Mich.)
1. Will select a Big Ten bowl-eligible school, subject to Conference approval.
SERVPRO First Responder Bowl (Dallas, TX)
1. Will select a Big Ten bowl-eligible school, subject to Conference approval.

- based on this and the link, it would seem perfectly reasonable to just make the following substitutions and assume the corresponding rules still hold for the 2020-2025 agreement:
Holiday Bowl --> Music City Bowl
Music City Bowl --> Las Vegas Bowl
Gator Bowl --> Mayo Bowl (was called Belk Bowl)
First Responder Bowl --> Guaranteed Rate Bowl (was called Cheez-It Bowl)

except:
- 2021 is a year the Orange is a semi-final, so that part wasn't on the table, it was just Citrus
- guessing parameter 1 for the MC/Gator was something very specific to 2019 as that was the last year of the previous agreement
- and it would seem that the Guaranteed Rate bowl jumped the Redbox and Quick Lane in selection order


Conclusions:
- there is nothing shown in the slightest about "tiers", either of bowl games or of teams
- there is nothing shown in the slightest about a "2-win rule"
- it does say not the same bowl in back to back years, but there were some bowls in 2020, so I assume that 2020 post-season did count
- the wording "Will feature at least five different Big Ten schools during the six-year agreement." does indeed seem to indicate that the selections over the 2014-2019 agreement are then irrelevant for the 2020-2025 agreement --> so that doubly would seem to indicate that our 2019 Outback selection would not have prevented a 2021 selection

- it seems quite simply that the bowls follow the selection order, and merely request the team they want.
- that would seem to indicate that the only team ineligible to be selected by the Citrus Bowl was Northwestern

- all the talk of tiers and 2-win rule is pretty much irrelevant. I suspect these may have been old rules prior to the 2014 season, and people tried to carry them over.

Unless you can find another actual BigTen document saying that they exist, I don't believe they do any more.
 

MplsGopher said:
Apologies for delay in responding to this.

Thanks for this link. How did you find this??

I'm certain that, somewhere, the exact same document exists for 2021 as well. Maybe even somewhere on bigten .org's AWS hosting, but the address certainly doesn't show up on Google search and going to bigten .org and searching there doesn't show it either.

I think it's reasonable to assume the 2021 version is quite similar, just updated with the new bowls for this cycle of contracts over 2020-2025 (details here: https://bigten.org/news/2019/6/4/fo...st-11-different-bowls-across-the-country.aspx )

The last paragraph of that link:
The Big Ten’s 2020-25 bowl lineup will also feature the same selection process that has been used since 2014 to ensure outstanding bowl matchups and fresh postseason destinations. Each bowl partner will work with the Big Ten to create the best possible matchup based upon an agreed set of parameters, with final approval by the conference office for all team selections. The Citrus, Outback, Music City, New Era Pinstripe, Cheez-It Guaranteed Rate, Redbox and Quick Lane Bowls will feature a Big Ten team in each year of the agreement, while the Las Vegas and Belk Mayo Bowls will rotate annually and each feature three teams over the six-year agreement.


So let's examine this document.

- the words "tier", "pod", and "group" do not appear in the document
- the top three bullet points: the first is just marketing/boasting, but the second two are relevant:
• Selection parameters agreed to by the conference and bowls ensure fresh and diverse experiences and destinations for students and fans.
• Big Ten schools will not go to the same bowl in back-to-back years (except for Rose Bowl and CFP bowls), and restrictions on multiple and/or consecutive appearances within states or regions.

- then we have
BIG TEN BOWL SELECTION PROCEDURE
For all non-CFP partners, bowl will request a Big Ten school, subject to Conference approval based on selection parameters.

- then it lists the additional selection parameters that apply for each bowl (the CFP and Rose are what they are, no need for showing this here)
VRBO CITRUS BOWL (Orlando, Fla.) or CAPITAL ONE ORANGE BOWL (Miami, Fla.)
1. When not hosting national semifinal game, the Orange Bowl will select the highest-ranked team from the Big Ten, SEC or Notre Dame to face an ACC team.
2. Citrus Bowl will feature at least five different Big Ten schools over six-year agreement.
OUTBACK BOWL (Tampa, Fla.)
1. Will feature at least five different Big Ten schools during the six-year agreement.
SAN DIEGO COUNTY CREDIT UNION HOLIDAY BOWL (San Diego, Calif.)
1. Will feature at least five different Big Ten schools during the six-year agreement.
FRANKLIN AMERICAN MORTGAGE MUSIC CITY BOWL (Nashville, Tenn.) or TAXSLAYER GATOR BOWL (Jacksonville, Fla.)
1. Either Music City or Gator Bowl will select Big Ten school in 2019.
2. Big Ten will play in three Music City Bowls and three TaxSlayer Gator Bowls during the six-year agreement.
3. No Big Ten school will play in more than one Music City Bowl and one TaxSlayer Gator Bowl during the six-year agreement.
NEW ERA PINSTRIPE BOWL (New York, N.Y.)
1. Goal is to have eight different Big Ten schools participate in eight years, with a minimum of six different Big Ten schools playing in the Pinstripe Bowl during the eight-year agreement.
REDBOX BOWL (Santa Clara, Calif.)
1. Will feature at least five different Big Ten schools during the six-year agreement.
QUICK LANE BOWL (Detroit, Mich.)
1. Will select a Big Ten bowl-eligible school, subject to Conference approval.
SERVPRO First Responder Bowl (Dallas, TX)
1. Will select a Big Ten bowl-eligible school, subject to Conference approval.

- based on this and the link, it would seem perfectly reasonable to just make the following substitutions and assume the corresponding rules still hold for the 2020-2025 agreement:
Holiday Bowl --> Music City Bowl
Music City Bowl --> Las Vegas Bowl
Gator Bowl --> Mayo Bowl (was called Belk Bowl)
First Responder Bowl --> Guaranteed Rate Bowl (was called Cheez-It Bowl)

except:
- 2021 is a year the Orange is a semi-final, so that part wasn't on the table, it was just Citrus
- guessing parameter 1 for the MC/Gator was something very specific to 2019 as that was the last year of the previous agreement
- and it would seem that the Guaranteed Rate bowl jumped the Redbox and Quick Lane in selection order


Conclusions:
- there is nothing shown in the slightest about "tiers", either of bowl games or of teams
- there is nothing shown in the slightest about a "2-win rule"
- it does say not the same bowl in back to back years, but there were some bowls in 2020, so I assume that 2020 post-season did count
- the wording "Will feature at least five different Big Ten schools during the six-year agreement." does indeed seem to indicate that the selections over the 2014-2019 agreement are then irrelevant for the 2020-2025 agreement --> so that doubly would seem to indicate that our 2019 Outback selection would not have prevented a 2021 selection

- it seems quite simply that the bowls follow the selection order, and merely request the team they want.
- that would seem to indicate that the only team ineligible to be selected by the Citrus Bowl was Northwestern

- all the talk of tiers and 2-win rule is pretty much irrelevant. I suspect these may have been old rules prior to the 2014 season, and people tried to carry them over.

Unless you can find another actual BigTen document saying that they exist, I don't believe they do any more.
Click to expand...
I found this on the B1G site and google search. Could not find anything updated for 2020-2025.
Good breakdown.
 

Right.

And in fact if you Google "big ten bowls 2 win rule" .... the only link (granted I only looked at the first page) that even mentions a 2 win rule is ...... the article from TDG!


So I think TDG has some explaining to do here!

Of course, they can just dead end anyone who challenges them. "We got that info from an insider source in the Big Ten, and we will not reveal their name".
 


MaxyJR1 said:
SEC bowls are interesting. Not many of those locations that I would love to go to.

Like the B1G they got 3 teams into the CFP/NY6 Alabama, Georgia, Ole Miss.

Then they have 9-3 Kentucky playing 10-3 Iowa

8-4 Texas A&M gets 10-3 Wake in Jacksonville
8-4 Arkansas gets 7-5 Penn State in Orlando
7-5 Miss. St. gets 6-6 Louisville in Dallas
7-5 Tenn. gets 8-4 Purdue in Nashville
6-6 Missouri get 8-3 Army in Fort Worth
6-6 Florida gets 8-4 UCF in Tampa
6-6 Auburn gets 11-2 Houston in Birmingham
6-6 South Carolina gets 6-6 North Carolina in Charlotte
6-6 LSU gets 7-5 Kansas State in Houston

Good thing they got 4 non-conference games to get to 6-6 and fill bowl games.

At the P5 level:

14 Teams won 10+ games
3 Teams won 9 games
27 teams won 6-8 games
Click to expand...
3 games in FL
2 games in TX
1 in TN
1 in AL
1 in NC
All of those games are within their conference footprint (except Charlotte, NC....which is essentially the South as well). That's pathetic.
 

discochris said:
And the Redbox bowl appears to be no more.
Click to expand...
Interesting! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Bowl

At the end of July 2020, organizers cancelled the 2020 edition of the bowl due to concerns around the COVID-19 pandemic; at the same time, the 49ers released a statement noting that "the decision has been made to not renew the current agreement to host the game moving forward".[3]

On September 8, 2021, Brett McMurphy of The Action Network reported that the game had been canceled for the second consecutive year.[4] However, only four hours later, Stewart Mandel denied McMurphy's report via Twitter, adding that organizers were continuing to negotiate with the Pac-12 and Big Ten conferences for tie-ins and were trying to find a new naming rights sponsor and television partner. The game would return to the 2002–13 venue, which is now called Oracle Park. Two days later, Mandel retracted his earlier report, indicating that the San Francisco Bowl would indeed be scrapped for the 2021–22 bowl season, putting its long-term future in jeopardy.[5]


Big Ten obviously couldn't even put a team in the Quick Lane Bowl either. So maybe they don't need that many tie-ins, in the first place?
 

Although, this is the first year since the start of the Quick Lane in 2014 -- which aimed to be Big Ten vs ACC, with a MAC back-up -- that it won't feature any P5 team.
 

MplsGopher said:
Although, this is the first year since the start of the Quick Lane in 2014 -- which aimed to be Big Ten vs ACC, with a MAC back-up -- that it won't feature any P5 team.
Click to expand...

Much to the relief of all Power 5 teams. (y)
 

It did occur to me watching the debacle last weekend vs the Lions, just how poor -- already -- that Ford Field looks compared to the newer indoor NFL stadiums.

I guess it is almost 20 years old now! 😱
 


MplsGopher said:
It did occur to me watching the debacle last weekend vs the Lions, just how poor -- already -- that Ford Field looks compared to the newer indoor NFL stadiums.

I guess it is almost 20 years old now! 😱
Click to expand...
It's weird, because it has windows at the top, but always looks so dark on TV.
 

Let’s swap the result. We will take the axe victory and you can go to the Vegas Bowl.

These garbage bowls mean nothing. Nobody cares.
 

GVBadger said:
Let’s swap the result. We will take the axe victory and you can go to the Vegas Bowl.

These garbage bowls mean nothing. Nobody cares.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't go that far. Lots of sports wagering & Bowl Pick 'em pools alone means there are some people that care. Has to be some reason they all get put on the tube.

Having said that, with transfer portals, early opt outs, etc, I find myself caring less and less each year.
 

GopherGod said:
Minnesota should start by filling their home stadium every week to change the rhetoric on their level of fan support. When you don’t do that in one of the smallest stadiums in P5, hard to make an argument you support the program.
Click to expand...
Why, despite the improved and still-improving program, do we not fill the stadium? Tennessee, e.g. has not drawn fewer than 80k fans to a game since 1979. Arkansas averages 60k per game. What do small towns Knoxville and Fayetteville have that the TC Metro's fans don't have? Or is the question, what does the TC Metro have that they don't have?
 

FanSinceTheFifties said:
Why, despite the improved and still-improving program, do we not fill the stadium? Tennessee, e.g. has not drawn fewer than 80k fans to a game since 1979. Arkansas averages 60k per game. What do small towns Knoxville and Fayetteville have that the TC Metro's fans don't have? Or is the question, what does the TC Metro have that they don't have?
Click to expand...
A professional football team plus an NBA team, NHL franchise and a MLS team too. Same thing most College Teams in Urban areas have. Competition for loyalty and the sports dollar.

Thousands of people living in the TC also have other College loyalties. People who follow Wisconsin, North Dakota, Iowa, North Dakota State, St.Thomas, St.Cloud etc. loudly proclaim that the Gophers "are not their team!"

You can see that when they play the Gophers at Huntington Bank.
 
Last edited:

Iceland12 said:
A professional football team plus an NBA team, NHL franchise and a MLS team too. Same thing most College Teams in Urban areas have. Competition for loyalty and the sports dollar.

Thousands of people living in the TC also have other College loyalties. People who follow Wisconsin, North Dakota, Iowa, North Dakota State, St.Thomas, St.Cloud etc. loudly proclaim that the Gophers "are not their team!"

You can see that when the play the Gophers at Huntington Bank.
Click to expand...
Also going back years, it was never cool to be a Gopher fan. When I was in high school, you'd never be seen wearing Gopher gear, especially football, because they were considered "losers."
 


You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom