Viramontes transferring

[Bob_Loblaw]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Brennan Armstrong have some issues while in high school? I remember hearing that he got in trouble (underage?) and possibly lied to Fleck about it. Maybe that was just a rumor though.

If that was true, and given the bad publicity around our club when Fleck took over, maybe Fleck decided it was in our best interest to value character over talent?

I don't really blame him for Armstrong in particular. I blame Fleck for failing to add a scholarship QB to last year's recruiting class. He had his sites on Armstrong, that didn't work out. That's on Fleck.

 

[Urbandale]

It's easy to put blame on Fleck for some of these guys - -

Viramontes is absolutely a Fleck failure. He was the only scholarship QB on his first recruiting class (to an absolutely barren position). Yes, the fact that player was gone by June, that's on Fleck. The fact that he is playing another position at a JuCo by June 4th isn't a great example of an eye for talent.

Brennan Armstrong - We'll see how he turns out, but Brennan is more of a symbol of Fleck not being able to bring in depth, at all, with his first recruiting class. That was a failure of Fleck.

Demry Croft - The handling of Croft last year was bizarre. Fleck walked into a bad QB situation, but he handled it very odd last year (IMO).

So yeah, some of these are on him, some of them aren't.

I agree only partly with you here.

1. I think it's most likely that Viramontes enrolled expecting to be the starter. We have no idea if he was promised anything, but most coaches wouldn't put themselves out on a limb. I suspect he was promised an opportunity to compete.

2. I think it's obvious that he wasn't first on the depth chart after spring practices. He may even have been third.

3. Like so many players, especially quarterbacks, he immediately began looking for greener pastures because he didn't want to wait around.

4. If Viramontes had decided to compete for the job instead of leaving, and thus was still on the team, would you classify him as "absolutely a Fleck failure"? Probably not. There is only one starting job, and the other guy has a scholarship for a reason. Not every person who's not a starter is a failure. That's why there are 85 scholarship players and only 22 (plus a handful of special teams) starting positions.

5. It's the fact that he transferred that many are considering this a failure. But I've seen no evidence that that's a Fleck move. Has anyone else? It seems entirely the choice of Viramontes. And more power to him - it's his life, and if he doesn't wait around for a starting job that may never come he can certainly leave.

6. The fact that he's changing positions doesn't necessarily count as an indictment against Fleck's or anyone's talent evaluation. Sometimes players and coaches realize they would simply be better at another position. Down here at Iowa State last year, starting quarterback Joel Lanning switched to middle linebacker before his senior year. It doesn't mean he was a swing-and-a-miss as a starting quarterback - on the contrary, he was more than capable. There was no failure in talent evaluation. He realized that he had a better chance to play at the next level if he switched, and so he did.

I'll miss Viramontes from a depth perspective, because if we have quarterback injuries then we're screwed. But other than that, I have no problem with this.

 

[Governor Sibley]

This issue isn't difficult.

Fleck failed big time in evaluation.

It's 100% on him.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I agree only partly with you here.

1. I think it's most likely that Viramontes enrolled expecting to be the starter. We have no idea if he was promised anything, but most coaches wouldn't put themselves out on a limb. I suspect he was promised an opportunity to compete.

2. I think it's obvious that he wasn't first on the depth chart after spring practices. He may even have been third.

3. Like so many players, especially quarterbacks, he immediately began looking for greener pastures because he didn't want to wait around.

4. If Viramontes had decided to compete for the job instead of leaving, and thus was still on the team, would you classify him as "absolutely a Fleck failure"? Probably not. There is only one starting job, and the other guy has a scholarship for a reason. Not every person who's not a starter is a failure. That's why there are 85 scholarship players and only 22 (plus a handful of special teams) starting positions.

5. It's the fact that he transferred that many are considering this a failure. But I've seen no evidence that that's a Fleck move. Has anyone else? It seems entirely the choice of Viramontes. And more power to him - it's his life, and if he doesn't wait around for a starting job that may never come he can certainly leave.

6. The fact that he's changing positions doesn't necessarily count as an indictment against Fleck's or anyone's talent evaluation. Sometimes players and coaches realize they would simply be better at another position. Down here at Iowa State last year, starting quarterback Joel Lanning switched to middle linebacker before his senior year. It doesn't mean he was a swing-and-a-miss as a starting quarterback - on the contrary, he was more than capable. There was no failure in talent evaluation. He realized that he had a better chance to play at the next level if he switched, and so he did.

I'll miss Viramontes from a depth perspective, because if we have quarterback injuries then we're screwed. But other than that, I have no problem with this.

I understand how the whole thing went down, but it should have been somewhat foreseeable. We should have added another QB in the class if we thought it was plausible that a guy like Vic wasn't going to turn out. Our QB depth chart is essentially two FR. One scholarship and one walk-on true FR. That's insanely bad. If VV was so far behind Morgan and Annexstad after three weeks of practice that he had to go elsewhere, it was a miss on talent evaluation (a crucial miss because he was the only scholarship QB on the roster).

VV staying on the team and competing for a spot would have been considerably better. It would put PJ's talent evaluation less in question (VV likely would have been closer to actually competing for PT). He would have added depth. And who knows, players improve. Additionally, let's say Morgan is our starting QB and he gets knicked up for 10-15 players, wouldn't it be nice to keep that RS on Annexstad if possible?

We had an atrocious QB situation last season. We added 1 scholarship QB who was off the team by June 1st. Our depth chart is essentially two FR QBs. I can't believe people don't have a problem with this.

 

[hello-world]

This issue isn't difficult.

Fleck failed big time in evaluation.

It's 100% on him.

It doesn't matter if we win. We can lose 100 QBs but if the one on the field plays well, all is well.

 

[Rescooter]

One Recruiter got it right

If predicting QB performance was that easy, colleges would only bring in one recruit every other year and Kill would have been able to stumble upon one in his years at the U. It is not only projecting how their talent will translate at the P5 level, it is how well can he learn the offense, read defenses, react under pressure, handle school work, stay out of trouble, mesh with teammates, etc, etc, etc... that is why ALL major schools bring in 2-3 hot shot QB’s every year. Everyone of them is the guy when they step onto campus. So one of PJ’s guys bails early, I look at that as a positive because they made the evaluation early enough that a kid didn’t waste his college career riding the pine and the U didn’t have to use a scolly on someone who wasn’t going to play much.


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The guy that got it right was Zack Annexstad. He was sitting back and saw everything playing out. He knew he had the talent to at least be a back-up as opposed to riding the pine and took that chance. My guess is we will see him starting at the end of the year. The kid's got Moxie.

On a note about the above excellent comment: PJ handled this well. Why waste a kids career as a 3rd stringer. Best thing to do is cut bait. It's best for Vic and for the program.

 

[Urbandale]

I understand how the whole thing went down, but it should have been somewhat foreseeable. We should have added another QB in the class if we thought it was plausible that a guy like Vic wasn't going to turn out. Our QB depth chart is essentially two FR. One scholarship and one walk-on true FR. That's insanely bad. If VV was so far behind Morgan and Annexstad after three weeks of practice that he had to go elsewhere, it was a miss on talent evaluation (a crucial miss because he was the only scholarship QB on the roster).

VV staying on the team and competing for a spot would have been considerably better. It would put PJ's talent evaluation less in question (VV likely would have been closer to actually competing for PT). He would have added depth. And who knows, players improve. Additionally, let's say Morgan is our starting QB and he gets knicked up for 10-15 players, wouldn't it be nice to keep that RS on Annexstad if possible?

We had an atrocious QB situation last season. We added 1 scholarship QB who was off the team by June 1st. Our depth chart is essentially two FR QBs. I can't believe people don't have a problem with this.

Don't misunderstand me - like I said, I wish Viramontes was around for depth reasons if nothing else. But it seems as if everyone is desperate to assign blame for Viramontes leaving. Well, Viramontes is the one who decided to go. He could have been here for the next three years - maybe he would have earned a starting spot, maybe not. Either way, it wouldn't have been a "miss" or a "failure" on the coaching staff any more than it would be a "miss" or a "failure" on the coaching staff if Morgan didn't earn the starting spot and was a backup.

I wish he would have stayed. But if the kid sees an easier path somewhere else, then he's gotta do what he's gotta do.

 

[alchemy2u]

Yeah, especially with our depth at QB. It's always a good thing when your only scholarship QB recruit is off the team by June. Great thing!

Zack is a scholarship quality recruit. How much a player is going to contribute is based upon how they play not on they are predicted to play.


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[PMWinSTP]

I agree only partly with you here.

1. I think it's most likely that Viramontes enrolled expecting to be the starter. We have no idea if he was promised anything, but most coaches wouldn't put themselves out on a limb. I suspect he was promised an opportunity to compete.

2. I think it's obvious that he wasn't first on the depth chart after spring practices. He may even have been third.

3. Like so many players, especially quarterbacks, he immediately began looking for greener pastures because he didn't want to wait around.

4. If Viramontes had decided to compete for the job instead of leaving, and thus was still on the team, would you classify him as "absolutely a Fleck failure"? Probably not. There is only one starting job, and the other guy has a scholarship for a reason. Not every person who's not a starter is a failure. That's why there are 85 scholarship players and only 22 (plus a handful of special teams) starting positions.

5. It's the fact that he transferred that many are considering this a failure. But I've seen no evidence that that's a Fleck move. Has anyone else? It seems entirely the choice of Viramontes. And more power to him - it's his life, and if he doesn't wait around for a starting job that may never come he can certainly leave.

6. The fact that he's changing positions doesn't necessarily count as an indictment against Fleck's or anyone's talent evaluation. Sometimes players and coaches realize they would simply be better at another position. Down here at Iowa State last year, starting quarterback Joel Lanning switched to middle linebacker before his senior year. It doesn't mean he was a swing-and-a-miss as a starting quarterback - on the contrary, he was more than capable. There was no failure in talent evaluation. He realized that he had a better chance to play at the next level if he switched, and so he did.

I'll miss Viramontes from a depth perspective, because if we have quarterback injuries then we're screwed. But other than that, I have no problem with this.

According to SON's summary of CCO's show Sunday, Fleck confirmed..."bottom" of the depth chart.

Sid: Vic V leaving - what's up with that?
PJ: I think it's a compliment in terms of Morgan and Annexstad. everybody got same amount of reps in spring camp, had an equal opportunity to win the starting job. I have not named a starter. but young people see they're at the bottom of the depth chart, want to go somewhere else where they have a chance to play. going into spring had 3 QBs, and they have not thrown a pass in a D1 game. we held an open spring battle. people got to see where they fit. if you don't see yourself as one of the top 2, then some people would rather go play somewhere else. we'll have 2 QB's on roster. Keep Seth at TE - he can be emergency QB. next year will add 2 more QB on scholarship. we're rebuilding the position. really excited about Tanner and Zach. Fans saw the spring game. we have two really good QBs. both very young. will be fun to watch them develop.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

In the end, the true impact of VV leaving cannot be known until after the season.

If Morgan or Annexstad seizes the QB job, plays well, and stays healthy, VV will be a footnote in Gopher history.

But, if neither Morgan or Annexstad play well, or if one or both is injured, then having another body makes a difference. In that scenario, we're talking about Seth Green at QB, or VV. It's clear the Coaches don't think Green's future is at QB. At least VV had some success playing the position at a level higher than high school.

I am not trying to beat up on Fleck and/or his coaches. But somebody thought VV deserved a scholarship to play D1 FB - presumably at QB. That somebody apparently made a mistake in evaluation. One mistake does not sink a program. As long as it's just one mistake. If 1 mistake becomes 2, 3, 4 or more mistakes in evaluation, then you've got a problem.

Maybe 2 or 3 years from now, if the Gophers are playing for a conference title, we'll look back at this and laugh. Or maybe, 2 or 3 years from now, if the Gophers are still struggling to win 6 games and qualify for the Motor City Bowl, we'll look back at this as an omen. Only time will tell.

 

[fraternity2017]

This issue isn't difficult.

Fleck failed big time in evaluation.

It's 100% on him.

Did he? We don’t know. If either Morgan or Annexstad are good options, which seems very possible, that’s not an indictment on Vic or PJ.

Vic wants to start and if Morgan is lighting it up in practice while Vic is still figuring everything out, he probably sees the writing on the wall for the coming season.

If Morgan and Annexstad both suck, then yes it’s a failure on PJ for not bringing in somebody better.


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[PMWinSTP]

The guy that got it right was Zack Annexstad. He was sitting back and saw everything playing out. He knew he had the talent to at least be a back-up as opposed to riding the pine and took that chance. My guess is we will see him starting at the end of the year. The kid's got Moxie.

On a note about the above excellent comment: PJ handled this well. Why waste a kids career as a 3rd stringer. Best thing to do is cut bait. It's best for Vic and for the program.

My sense is Annexstad might very well be the starter at the beginning of the season.

 

[PMWinSTP]

Did he? We don’t know. If either Morgan or Annexstad are good options, which seems very possible, that’s not an indictment on Vic or PJ.

Vic wants to start and if Morgan is lighting it up in practice while Vic is still figuring everything out, he probably sees the writing on the wall for the coming season.

If Morgan and Annexstad both suck, then yes it’s a failure on PJ for not bringing in somebody better.


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He's going back to CC to play a different position...

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

I don't really blame him for Armstrong in particular. I blame Fleck for failing to add a scholarship QB to last year's recruiting class. He had his sites on Armstrong, that didn't work out. That's on Fleck.

Annexstad is essentially a scholarship QB. If he would have said I'm going to Illinois, Pitt, or Cincinnati unless you give me a scholarship, Fleck would have given him a scholarship. Those schools and more offered him one. He turned them down because he doesn't need a scholarship, and he wanted to be at Minnesota.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Annexstad is essentially a scholarship QB. If he would have said I'm going to Illinois, Pitt, or Cincinnati unless you give me a scholarship, Fleck would have given him a scholarship. Those schools and more offered him one. He turned them down because he doesn't need a scholarship, and he wanted to be at Minnesota.

I get the entire Annexstad narrative, but the fact that he is a walk-on does change things. Because he is a walk-on, we could easily add other QBs to this class without having too allocate too many resources to the QB position. He was a blessing to the program, we should have been able to recruit the QB position in a way that would have fully taken advantage of the luxury his lack of a scholarship provides.

 

[CurveballJesus]

Annexstad is essentially a scholarship QB. If he would have said I'm going to Illinois, Pitt, or Cincinnati unless you give me a scholarship, Fleck would have given him a scholarship. Those schools and more offered him one. He turned them down because he doesn't need a scholarship, and he wanted to be at Minnesota.

How can you be sure? Have you personally witnessed him throw the ball more than 35 yards multiple times? Remember, highlight films don't count.

 

[hello-world]

I get the entire Annexstad narrative, but the fact that he is a walk-on does change things. Because he is a walk-on, we could easily add other QBs to this class without having too allocate too many resources to the QB position. He was a blessing to the program, we should have been able to recruit the QB position in a way that would have fully taken advantage of the luxury his lack of a scholarship provides.

Bob_Loblaw, are we on your lawn?

 

[Hockeytown]

Annexstad is essentially a scholarship QB. If he would have said I'm going to Illinois, Pitt, or Cincinnati unless you give me a scholarship, Fleck would have given him a scholarship. Those schools and more offered him one. He turned them down because he doesn't need a scholarship, and he wanted to be at Minnesota.

no, no he is not. don't take my response personally...it is my opinion

Last week i thought Fleck had a handle on this QB issue...now i am convinced the whole thing will tumble similarly to how Jerry Kill handled it.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

I get the entire Annexstad narrative, but the fact that he is a walk-on does change things. Because he is a walk-on, we could easily add other QBs to this class without having too allocate too many resources to the QB position. He was a blessing to the program, we should have been able to recruit the QB position in a way that would have fully taken advantage of the luxury his lack of a scholarship provides.

I get what your saying but it works both ways. Other QB commits know he's your traditional walk on either. Annexstad beat out a 4* QB recruit for the starting job on the 2nd best high school football team in the country. That could easily scare off a few recruits.

 

[balds]

The difficult conversation between he and PJ about the QB depth chart likely took place over breakfast.

 

[GopherJake]

The difficult conversation between he and PJ about the QB depth chart likely took place over breakfast.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

The difficult conversation between he and PJ about the QB depth chart likely took place over breakfast.

 

[Breakin' The Plane]

That ingredient list is missing generous amounts of baloney.

 

[John Galt]

I don't really blame him for Armstrong in particular. I blame Fleck for failing to add a scholarship QB to last year's recruiting class. He had his sites on Armstrong, that didn't work out. That's on Fleck.

It's ultimately on Fleck, but let's remember the details. Fleck targeted Armstrong early and got a commitment from him in March or April if I remember right. We had every intention of taking one QB in the 2018 class - BA. When Armstrong was asked or chose to look elsewhere in November, it didn't give us much time to react.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

I get what your saying but it works both ways. Other QB commits know he's your traditional walk on either. Annexstad beat out a 4* QB recruit for the starting job on the 2nd best high school football team in the country. That could easily scare off a few recruits.

Sitikowski is rated a 3 star. He lost his job halfway through the year and Annexstad took over. He didn't put up particularly impressive numbers. Obviously someone as raw as him could still develop into a good QB but generally past predicts present and future as far as potential. I'd be a lot happier with the situation if he had lit up the competition at a lower level- like Streveler at South Dakota for example.

 

[John Galt]

If VV would have stayed on the roster as the #2 behind Tanner Morgan and seen little to no action this year, would that have been a failure on Fleck's part? I'm guessing most would say no, assuming that we get good QB play out of Morgan.

So now, given that Annexstad has exceeded expectations and is solidly the #2, it means it is a failure? Is the answer that VV is that bad, or that Annexstad is that good? Until I know the answer to this, I don't have an opinion. Other than that I don't like have only 2 QBs and 1 scholarship QB on the roster.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

I don't think this will ever get old. Makes me laugh every damn time.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Sitikowski is rated a 3 star. He lost his job halfway through the year and Annexstad took over. He didn't put up particularly impressive numbers. Obviously someone as raw as him could still develop into a good QB but generally past predicts present and future as far as potential. I'd be a lot happier with the situation if he had lit up the competition at a lower level- like Streveler at South Dakota for example.

247 did downgrade him at the end of last season after being a 4* for a long time. ESPN kept him as a 4* though.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

If VV would have stayed on the roster as the #2 behind Tanner Morgan and seen little to no action this year, would that have been a failure on Fleck's part? I'm guessing most would say no, assuming that we get good QB play out of Morgan.

So now, given that Annexstad has exceeded expectations and is solidly the #2, it means it is a failure? Is the answer that VV is that bad, or that Annexstad is that good? Until I know the answer to this, I don't have an opinion. Other than that I don't like have only 2 QBs and 1 scholarship QB on the roster.

Agree it's too soon to know one way or another. I think the point some are making is VV is apparently dropping down to play LB after a very short audition. It's not ideal. If this were an unpopular coach the reaction would likely be different but PJ is still in the honeymoon phase for probably a solid majority and gets the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

You’re right he was downgraded at the end of last season after being a 4* for a long time.

So he wasn't a 4 star recruit for Rutgers. I can see why you and PJ see eye to eye. Just throw it against the wall.