Viramontes transferring

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John Galt said:
It’s too early to write the story on this. It clearly doesn’t look good and I wish VV was here if only for depth reasons. If the QB play is bad this year and we recruited a 3rd string JUCO who couldn’t beat out 2 bad QBs it’s an indictment on the staff. If the QB play is significantly improved and either Morgan or Annexstad look like the real deal, no one will care about this.
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That's a good point. I think in the offseason we are stuck trying to evaluate whether we agree with decisions and processes that we don't know how they will pan out. At the end of the day, once the games start we will either play well and Fleck deserves credit for his system/decisions, or play poorly and he will deserve blame.
 

I agree that we have to wait to write the story. Things could be fine if Annexstad or Morgan are decent or great.

However, it’s not even a knock on Fleck for taking a chance on VV, but given that he did not pan out, the chances of one or more years in the next three or four being a complete dumpster fire have risen. If Morgan or Annexstad don’t look great out of the chute, it’s basically all in on a grad transfer or another JuCo for Fleck to not be a disaster in year three (or two if you count zero). Even if one is solid, an injury could still destroy a season given that the odds of the other being a decent backup are probably low-ish.

I hope one of the two young guys is good and this then mostly goes out the window.
 

In the WCCO report that Son did today, Fleck said Green is available in an emergency.
 

FWIW - on the Sports Huddle today, Fleck addressed the depth issue. He said Green will stay at TE, but he would be available as an emergency QB. Fleck said the Gophers will recruit 2 QB's in the 2019 class. (more in my recap elsewhere).
 

RickDornsby said:
I agree that we have to wait to write the story. Things could be fine if Annexstad or Morgan are decent or great.

However, it’s not even a knock on Fleck for taking a chance on VV, but given that he did not pan out, the chances of one or more years in the next three or four being a complete dumpster fire have risen. If Morgan or Annexstad don’t look great out of the chute, it’s basically all in on a grad transfer or another JuCo for Fleck to not be a disaster in year three (or two if you count zero). Even if one is solid, an injury could still destroy a season given that the odds of the other being a decent backup are probably low-ish.

I hope one of the two young guys is good and this then mostly goes out the window.
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It’s not a knock on PJ for recruiting VV as he was the top rated JUCO. Begs the question of who’s evaluating JUCO QB’s though.

Stop with the year zero nonsense. It was his first year, he set a tone for the program during that year. Everything counted including the 5-7 record. Just as many new coaches meet or surpass the coach they took over for or were within a game. PJ wasn’t and shouldn’t get a pass in the season just because he thinks he needs one.

Year two is going to depend on two things and that is the development and health of the two QB’s. If either of them play ok and show improvement throughout the year then there is some reason for optimism. If not then that would be two years in a row with no QB development and that would be troubling and the timeframe to return to relevance within the BIG just gets stretched further out.


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It's just not that hard to figure out, one winter in Minnesota had this California kid longing for some sunshine and warmer temperatures.
 

GFBfan said:
It’s not a knock on PJ for recruiting VV as he was the top rated JUCO. Begs the question of who’s evaluating JUCO QB’s though.

Stop with the year zero nonsense. It was his first year, he set a tone for the program during that year. Everything counted including the 5-7 record. Just as many new coaches meet or surpass the coach they took over for or were within a game. PJ wasn’t and shouldn’t get a pass in the season just because he thinks he needs one.

Year two is going to depend on two things and that is the development and health of the two QB’s. If either of them play ok and show improvement throughout the year then there is some reason for optimism. If not then that would be two years in a row with no QB development and that would be troubling and the timeframe to return to relevance within the BIG just gets stretched further out.


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Top rated? Who cares. It is on the coaches that a recruit he talked so highly of was not at all what was espoused when he was signed. Hopefully our coaches aren’t using external rankings to determine their offers. I would assume they base offers on their own evaluation, and just missed badly on this one - that happens with all coaches. Yet, not real often with good ones.


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GFBfan said:
It’s not a knock on PJ for recruiting VV as he was the top rated JUCO. Begs the question of who’s evaluating JUCO QB’s though.

Stop with the year zero nonsense. It was his first year, he set a tone for the program during that year. Everything counted including the 5-7 record. Just as many new coaches meet or surpass the coach they took over for or were within a game. PJ wasn’t and shouldn’t get a pass in the season just because he thinks he needs one.

Year two is going to depend on two things and that is the development and health of the two QB’s. If either of them play ok and show improvement throughout the year then there is some reason for optimism. If not then that would be two years in a row with no QB development and that would be troubling and the timeframe to return to relevance within the BIG just gets stretched further out.


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People cross over the "year zero nonsense" from the men's basketball team where it seems it is always "year zero".

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HoustonTXGopher said:
It's just not that hard to figure out, one winter in Minnesota had this California kid longing for some sunshine and warmer temperatures.
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If this is his excuse, its pretty lame. Gophers take a chance on him, and this is how he repays them. Vic has a lot of growing up to do.
 

No point in crying over spilled milk. Maybe this opens up another chance for Seth Green, maybe it gives us another scholarship to work with. I think it's pretty clear that if he dipped behind a Freshman on the depth chart and then quit, he wasn't going to be a strong fit for the program. I'm looking forward to watching Morgan take the reins this season.
 

IMHO, his JC coach Tom Craft foreboded potential issues.

“I think [passing] is the area that he’s going to have to progress in is to learn more of a pro-style offense to go with his running ability. It’s just going to take a little time to learn the offense,” Craft said. “The big thing is the arm strength and he has that.”

I was just as excited as the next guy about VV. IMHO, he has talent but he needed to learn the offense real quick which he couldn't do well watching him in practice. He appeared like he was thinking too much instead of reacting.

Being homesick and being shell-shocked about not being able to move up the depth chart was too much for him. Fleck doesn't have the luxury to red shirt him.

I wish him lots of luck.

http://www.1500espn.com/gophers-2/2017/12/vic-viramontes-rowing-long-gophers-came-calling/ FIFY



The JC QB I wish the Gophers had was 2017 QB Jordan Ta'amu who ended up at Ole Miss.
https://247sports.com/player/jordan-taamu-46035515
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
Kinda seems like maybe all the folks responsible for ranking him as the best JUCO QB in the country may have whiffed a little too, eh?
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Yep, but none of them are the football coach at the U of MN. If you want to talk about the credibility of some of the folks evaluating, that's another discussion. PJ Fleck, the guy who gets paid a lot of money to be right on these players, was wrong on VV. The number of other people who were wrong doesn't really impact much for me.
 



Ozzy&Ray said:
Top rated? Who cares. It is on the coaches that a recruit he talked so highly of was not at all what was espoused when he was signed. Hopefully our coaches aren’t using external rankings to determine their offers. I would assume they base offers on their own evaluation, and just missed badly on this one - that happens with all coaches. Yet, not real often with good ones.


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Yep, forgot to add a sentence stating the U recruiters were equally as bad in their evaluation of him.
Can’t see Seth being a viable third option either. They made the switch to TE because he wasn’t in their plans to play QB. Asking him to switch back because of this doesn’t help his development as a TE.


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hungan1 said:
IMHO, his JC coach Tom Craft foreboded potential issues.

“I think [passing] is the area that he’s going to have to progress in is to learn more of a pro-style offense to go with his running ability. It’s just going to take a little time to learn the offense,” Craft said. “The big thing is the arm strength and he has that.”

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Craft should have an idea he is a former SD State HC and his son played some QB for UCLA too. On the other hand evaluating a QB is a guess in most cases. Who is to say how they will adjust to the hyper-competitive nature of big time college football? What NFL scouts evaluated Ryan Leaf, Todd Blackledge, Tim Couch, Brady (the Notre Dame guy)...These guys were heavily evaluated, drafted and were not able to make the step from college to the pros. The idea is similar to the step from jc or high school to college. You don't know until they get there. In the case of VV we just found out really fast. Like all of you I am waiting for that QB who is up to the challenge and leads us to many glorious victories. Its just that we have been waiting for so long. Recruiting is obvioulsy not a science, I just wish that we would get lucky once in a while. Go Gophers
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Players do not fail on their own. Certainly coaches share responsibility at the very least. Just seems odd our most physically athletic candidates to play quarterback can't function in the system...maybe some flexibility to the system is required until you get the perfect candidate you are looking for? Neil McLaurin, Mark Williams, Demry Croft, Seth Green, Jaran Roste (6-3 235lbs 5500 yards passing, 56 TD passes 1700 yards rushing) they thought they could develop him, and of course Vic Viramontes all encouraged to move on because they don't fit the system/culture...hmm That's six guys before we play a game in year one. And that doesn't count our only QB recruit at the time moving on in Brennan Armstrong because we also re-evaluated him to make seven QB candidates no longer in PJ's QB plans.
 

denguegopher said:
hungan1 said:
IMHO, his JC coach Tom Craft foreboded potential issues.

“I think [passing] is the area that he’s going to have to progress in is to learn more of a pro-style offense to go with his running ability. It’s just going to take a little time to learn the offense,” Craft said. “The big thing is the arm strength and he has that.”

xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Craft should have an idea he is a former SD State HC and his son played some QB for UCLA too. On the other hand evaluating a QB is a guess in most cases. Who is to say how they will adjust to the hyper-competitive nature of big time college football? What NFL scouts evaluated Ryan Leaf, Todd Blackledge, Tim Couch, Brady (the Notre Dame guy)...These guys were heavily evaluated, drafted and were not able to make the step from college to the pros. The idea is similar to the step from jc or high school to college. You don't know until they get there. In the case of VV we just found out really fast. Like all of you I am waiting for that QB who is up to the challenge and leads us to many glorious victories. Its just that we have been waiting for so long. Recruiting is obvioulsy not a science, I just wish that we would get lucky once in a while. Go Gophers
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ahh Brady Quinn... add Tebow and a 100 other guys. I do believe most people need the right coach to succeed/flourish. Sure, some are so talented they succeed in spite of their environment. Hard to do though, most people need love and trust between the coach and player. Like Zimmer says his most important task this off season is building a relationship with Kirk Cousins, so they can talk freely.
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GFBfan said:
Yep, forgot to add a sentence stating the U recruiters were equally as bad in their evaluation of him.
Can’t see Seth being a viable third option either. They made the switch to TE because he wasn’t in their plans to play QB. Asking him to switch back because of this doesn’t help his development as a TE.


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Oh no, not the QB to TE discussion. Up next, Jerry Kill's quote “I won’t recruit another quarterback from the state of Minnesota.” It's been a mess for so long I don't know what to think.
 

60's Guy said:
Players do not fail on their own. Certainly coaches share responsibility at the very least. Just seems odd our most physically athletic candidates to play quarterback can't function in the system...maybe some flexibility to the system is required until you get the perfect candidate you are looking for? Neil McLaurin, Mark Williams, Demry Croft, Seth Green, Jaran Roste (6-3 235lbs 5500 yards passing, 56 TD passes 1700 yards rushing) they thought they could develop him, and of course Vic Viramontes all encouraged to move on because they don't fit the system/culture...hmm That's six guys before we play a game in year one. And that doesn't count our only QB recruit at the time moving on in Brennan Armstrong because we also re-evaluated him to make seven QB candidates no longer in PJ's QB plans.
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So you're blaming Fleck for not developing the following at QB?

McLaurin - who didn't go to class and changed postitions to a WR at his former JUCO
Mark Williams - who was already a WR when Fleck got here
Demry Croft - who was awful all of last year and transferred to a FCS school
Seth Green - who decommitted from Oregon because they wanted him to become a TE, and he's now a TE here
Jaran Roste - a walk on, who transferred to a division III school
Viramontes - transferring back to his former JUCO to change positions
Brennan Armstrong - who never came close to making it to campus, and we have no idea how good he is.

You just can't make up the inane logic on this board most days...
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
So you're blaming Fleck for not developing the following at QB?

McLaurin - who didn't go to class and changed postitions to a WR at his former JUCO
Mark Williams - who was already a WR when Fleck got here
Demry Croft - who was awful all of last year and transferred to a FCS school
Seth Green - who decommitted from Oregon because they wanted him to become a TE, and he's now a TE here
Jaran Roste - a walk on, who transferred to a division III school
Viramontes - transferring back to his former JUCO to change positions
Brennan Armstrong - who never came close to making it to campus, and we have no idea how good he is.

You just can't make up the inane logic on this board most days...
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That was a bad take by 60's guy, especially concerning Williams and for the most part McLaurin.
With Croft, PJ can take some blame for not developing him in the year they were together. There was a bad dynamic between the two and blame can be equally shared by both of them.
Green didn't fit their plans - I like the switch to TE as he is athletic and could be a good player there. Don't like that he might have to be the 3rd stringer as any time away from the TE position will hurt his development there.
Roste and Annexstad are or were walk ons. Roste has left the team to go elsewhere and we have no idea on how good Annexstad will be.
For Viramontes and Armstrong, PJ and staff should receive no blame for QB development, but they certainly have some problems evaluating QB talent as they are two of three recruited QB's and neither of them are here anymore. We also still have no idea on Morgan.
 

per RandBall:

The Gophers' Vic Viramontes leaves no lasting impression

Three thoughts from the weekend in sports:

1 The latest confirmation that the seduction of possibility often leads a harsh reality in sports arrives this weekend with the news that quarterback prospect Vic Viramontes is transferring from the Gophers football program.

Even by the standards of Minnesota sports — and particularly Gophers football and especially that program’s star-crossed QB history — this love affair was brief and unsatisfying.

Viramontes enrolled in January as a highly touted junior college transfer and was the presumed front-runner in a quarterback battle thin on experience. A few months later, he was clearly third-string and reportedly on his way back to California to be a linebacker.

Chalk it up as a recruiting miss on P.J. Fleck’s part, but more so as a lesson learned for those of us who continue to buy into the hype before a real down, inning, period or quarter are played.

We will have more chances this month to temper our enthusiasm when the Twins (on Monday) as well as the Wild and Wolves (later in June) make selections in their respective drafts.

I’m sure none of us will be seduced by potential ever again.

http://www.startribune.com/the-gophers-vic-viramontes-leaves-no-lasting-impression/484434051/

Go Gophers!!
 

short ornery norwegian said:
FWIW - on the Sports Huddle today, Fleck addressed the depth issue. He said Green will stay at TE, but he would be available as an emergency QB. Fleck said the Gophers will recruit 2 QB's in the 2019 class. (more in my recap elsewhere).
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He also referred to that 2019 class as "year 2." SMH!!!!!!!!
 


I heard that Annexstad has looked very good so far in practices. Not sure how reliable the source is, but it's very possible, he jumped Vic on the depth chart, if he wasn't ahead of him already, and coupled with maybe some homesickness, Vic came to a realization that QB isn't working out for him? If he has plans of trying to play D1 LB somewhere, might as well get out now, before having to burn a year of eligibility to do so.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
So you're blaming Fleck for not developing the following at QB?

McLaurin - who didn't go to class and changed postitions to a WR at his former JUCO
Mark Williams - who was already a WR when Fleck got here
Demry Croft - who was awful all of last year and transferred to a FCS school
Seth Green - who decommitted from Oregon because they wanted him to become a TE, and he's now a TE here
Jaran Roste - a walk on, who transferred to a division III school
Viramontes - transferring back to his former JUCO to change positions
Brennan Armstrong - who never came close to making it to campus, and we have no idea how good he is.

You just can't make up the inane logic on this board most days...
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Exactly!


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GopherWeatherGuy said:
So you're blaming Fleck for not developing the following at QB?

McLaurin - who didn't go to class and changed postitions to a WR at his former JUCO
Mark Williams - who was already a WR when Fleck got here
Demry Croft - who was awful all of last year and transferred to a FCS school
Seth Green - who decommitted from Oregon because they wanted him to become a TE, and he's now a TE here
Jaran Roste - a walk on, who transferred to a division III school
Viramontes - transferring back to his former JUCO to change positions
Brennan Armstrong - who never came close to making it to campus, and we have no idea how good he is.

You just can't make up the inane logic on this board most days...
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You're being generous calling his comments "logic." In the middle of the night we get two posts with the usual anti-Fleck BS, where he's convinced PJ is ruining countless careers and damaging psyches. Same guy who wanted Coyle to talk to the woman after she filed sexual assault charges against the players.
 

If predicting QB performance was that easy, colleges would only bring in one recruit every other year and Kill would have been able to stumble upon one in his years at the U. It is not only projecting how their talent will translate at the P5 level, it is how well can he learn the offense, read defenses, react under pressure, handle school work, stay out of trouble, mesh with teammates, etc, etc, etc... that is why ALL major schools bring in 2-3 hot shot QB’s every year. Everyone of them is the guy when they step onto campus. So one of PJ’s guys bails early, I look at that as a positive because they made the evaluation early enough that a kid didn’t waste his college career riding the pine and the U didn’t have to use a scolly on someone who wasn’t going to play much.


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GopherWeatherGuy said:
So you're blaming Fleck for not developing the following at QB?

McLaurin - who didn't go to class and changed postitions to a WR at his former JUCO
Mark Williams - who was already a WR when Fleck got here
Demry Croft - who was awful all of last year and transferred to a FCS school
Seth Green - who decommitted from Oregon because they wanted him to become a TE, and he's now a TE here
Jaran Roste - a walk on, who transferred to a division III school
Viramontes - transferring back to his former JUCO to change positions
Brennan Armstrong - who never came close to making it to campus, and we have no idea how good he is.

You just can't make up the inane logic on this board most days...
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It's easy to put blame on Fleck for some of these guys - -

Viramontes is absolutely a Fleck failure. He was the only scholarship QB on his first recruiting class (to an absolutely barren position). Yes, the fact that player was gone by June, that's on Fleck. The fact that he is playing another position at a JuCo by June 4th isn't a great example of an eye for talent.

Brennan Armstrong - We'll see how he turns out, but Brennan is more of a symbol of Fleck not being able to bring in depth, at all, with his first recruiting class. That was a failure of Fleck.

Demry Croft - The handling of Croft last year was bizarre. Fleck walked into a bad QB situation, but he handled it very odd last year (IMO).

So yeah, some of these are on him, some of them aren't.
 

alchemy2u said:
If predicting QB performance was that easy, colleges would only bring in one recruit every other year and Kill would have been able to stumble upon one in his years at the U. It is not only projecting how their talent will translate at the P5 level, it is how well can he learn the offense, read defenses, react under pressure, handle school work, stay out of trouble, mesh with teammates, etc, etc, etc... that is why ALL major schools bring in 2-3 hot shot QB’s every year. Everyone of them is the guy when they step onto campus. So one of PJ’s guys bails early, I look at that as a positive because they made the evaluation early enough that a kid didn’t waste his college career riding the pine and the U didn’t have to use a scolly on someone who wasn’t going to play much.


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Yeah, especially with our depth at QB. It's always a good thing when your only scholarship QB recruit is off the team by June. Great thing!
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Brennan Armstrong - We'll see how he turns out, but Brennan is more of a symbol of Fleck not being able to bring in depth, at all, with his first recruiting class. That was a failure of Fleck.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Brennan Armstrong have some issues while in high school? I remember hearing that he got in trouble (underage?) and possibly lied to Fleck about it. Maybe that was just a rumor though.

If that was true, and given the bad publicity around our club when Fleck took over, maybe Fleck decided it was in our best interest to value character over talent?
 

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