Updates About Penn State Scandal UPDATED 6/12: PSU has spent $45.9M on scandal


I am having a hard time discerning who agreed to what as the "next steps" mentioned in the e-mail and where Paterno was in all this. Without reading more e-mails, the "we" that agreed to a wider involvement of authorities may have been Paterno and one of the Schultz, Spanier, Curley triumvirate or the triumvirate alone (and that the triumvirate was talked out of pursuing things further by Paterno).

My reading comprehension is pretty good, but I'm surprised that the exact nature of this smoking gun isn't spelled out more clearly here.
 

I am having a hard time discerning who agreed to what as the "next steps" mentioned in the e-mail and where Paterno was in all this. Without reading more e-mails, the "we" that agreed to a wider involvement of authorities may have been Paterno and one of the Schultz, Spanier, Curley triumvirate or the triumvirate alone (and that the triumvirate was talked out of pursuing things further by Paterno).

My reading comprehension is pretty good, but I'm surprised that the exact nature of this smoking gun isn't spelled out more clearly here.

I'm expecting more to follow. This is the type of thing many people were 'expecting'.

Additional criminal cases and civil suits could go on for a long time.
 


Joe Pa's statue needs to come down in the same fashion as the one celebrating Saddam Hussein in a public spectacle.

I was 90 miles outside of State College, PA last Saturday, the day after the verdict was announced, and talked to a couple of guys in a liquor store (buying Yuengling) about the situation. Their take was that this is really polarizing in the sense that people are either more emboldened to passionately defend Paterno and Penn State and are seemingly willing to die for the case, or others are deeply distraught and bitter about the emperor having no clothes and disappointed that they bought into the illusion of virtue presented by the folks running Happy Valley.

How does the NCAA or the Big Ten let this go silently? This is exponentially worse than what warranted the SMU and Tulane death penalties.
 





I guess I don't see the problem invoking the generic ethics clause without another specific violation, as long as it is written openly enough that this fits (which it appears to be). To me, a case like this is exactly why you leave that clause open ended. While I understand your previous statements saying it's not an NCAA issue, I personally disagree. Members of the athletic department broke the law in order to protect the football legacy. They and the team benefitted by the information not coming out. It wasn't one member of the department getting a DUI. I would completely agree that something on that order isn't NCAA business. But this appears to be more of a coordinated attempt to commit a crime in order to benefit the program. I don't see how that isn't NCAA business assuming the evidence is solid enough to prove conspiracy.

If this involved Sandusky committing some other crime where the act of not reporting allegations isn't a crime, I would completely agree it's not NCAA business (sorry for all the "not" usage, didn't know how else to say it). The key for me is that they knowingly acted to commit a crime in order to benefit the football program.

Had they reported him right away, whether Sandusky was an employee at the time or not, I don't think it's NCAA business (other than potentially banning Sandusky). That is simply a case of one person breaking the law and the department following the law.

That being said, I don't think that the death penalty is appropriate. The people proven involved should be banned for life by the NCAA to whatever extent they can (mostly symbolic because I can't imagine anyone hiring them again), and assuming the various investigations don't find a pattern of cover-ups of violations, maybe lose a scholarship or two and no post season play for a year or two. If this happened when Sandusky was a coach and they kept him employed and covered it up, then I would push for the death penalty, because there is a significantly different level of benefit to the program.

I'm guessing we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I still think regardless of what the NCAA does that PSU would do themselves a favor by self-imposing punishment of some sort. But I would guess they want to hold off until the NCAA is done with their investigation.
 

The more I think about it, I think the Big Ten has the most at stake. What a nightmare it would have been if Penn State played in the title game last season, and it almost happened. I feel that Penn State owes it to the conference to pull out of post season play or conference title games for two years to preserve the brand of the conference.
 




The argument "it happened in the Penn St. football offices, therefore it is a Penn St. football issue" is silly and absurd. If I shoot someone in a restaurant, does that mean McDonald's and Smith & Wesson should be held liable?
 

dpodoll68 said:
The argument "it happened in the Penn St. football offices, therefore it is a Penn St. football issue" is silly and absurd. If I shoot someone in a restaurant, does that mean McDonald's and Smith & Wesson should be held liable?

If the manager, and the manager's manager of McDonald's tries to cover it up because it may hurt the reputation of the restaurant, than yes.
 

The argument "it happened in the Penn St. football offices, therefore it is a Penn St. football issue" is silly and absurd. If I shoot someone in a restaurant, does that mean McDonald's and Smith & Wesson should be held liable?

That all depends on the circumstances. There have been cases where employers have been held liable in civil suits for personal action. It is called 3rd party liability. If you hire a person and did not screen their background, which would have shown the employee had issues of hurting people at the previous employer, and that employee happened to work for Smith and Wesson, then Smith and Wesson could be held liable for the death of another employee by the new hire. There is substantial case law on this. You may go ahead and question the virtues of this liability, but nobody is immune from common sense actions that fail to be done at critical moments.

I totally understand your view, however.
 

By the way, this is one of my many predictions that have come true. The fall of Marcos. Reagan getting shot. JoPa being a dirty, underhanded coach. And, accurately predicting the fall of the USSR after the 1st Gulf war. My Nostradamus ways have long since dried up. Chalk it up to being lucky, I guess.
 



If the manager, and the manager's manager of McDonald's tries to cover it up because it may hurt the reputation of the restaurant, than yes.

Exactly.

Since we had links from the no-big-deal side, let's have links from the other side. Here's Dennis Dodd, from CBS Sports. Note that Dodd was once on dpo's side, thinking this was no big deal.
"I have turned 180 degrees since November. That's when I wrote that Emmert had overreached when he suggested Penn State violated NCAA bylaws.

But based on the damning emails between Penn State administrators, released by CNN, Emmert now has his evidence: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier, AD Tim Curley and then-vice president Gary Schultz seem to have had direct knowledge of Sandusky's crimes. "
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/19453429/emmert-ncaa-in-position-to-send-important-message-make-penn-state-pay


Also, see Dave Dye at Fox Sports.
http://www.foxsportsdetroit.com/07/02/12/Dye-Penn-State-deserves-highest-penalty/landing_msu.html?blockID=755170&feedID=3804

Dye contrasts what other programs who received the death penalty have done with what Penn St did.

Finally, check out Buzz Bissinger at the Daily Beast, http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/02/joe-paterno-s-lying-in-jerry-sandusky-abuse-case-further-taints-his-legacy.html


Let's all ask ourselves, "What does Lack of Institutional Control mean, really?" It means that the school has basically lost control of the football program. It means that the school no longer does what's right and what's fair and legal and best for society and the university, it does what's best for the football program, all other considerations be damned. If that doesn't describe Penn St, I don't know what does. This was not one guy off molesting kids on the side and nobody knew about it. Everybody knew about - everyone: the head coach, asst AD, AD, VP, President. They all knew. And what did they care about? The reputation of the football program. The entire school was corrupt and complicit to the core for years more - years - of grotesque child molestation and rape.

The bottom line is this, and I'm quoting from Dennis Dodd's article, "Penn State must pay if for no other reason than this, the same key point Emmert has raised regarding misconduct since he took office 2½ years ago: When will risk outweigh reward?"


If Penn St is not heavily punished, the next President to face a situation may make the same calculation that Penn St did, "Well, this is going to really hurt the football program if I expose this and that coach seems like a nice guy. So let's just sweep this under the rug." This kind of heinous behavior must not be tolerated.
 


Exactly.

Since we had links from the no-big-deal side, let's have links from the other side. Here's Dennis Dodd, from CBS Sports. Note that Dodd was once on dpo's side, thinking this was no big deal.
"I have turned 180 degrees since November. That's when I wrote that Emmert had overreached when he suggested Penn State violated NCAA bylaws.

But based on the damning emails between Penn State administrators, released by CNN, Emmert now has his evidence: Former Penn State president Graham Spanier, AD Tim Curley and then-vice president Gary Schultz seem to have had direct knowledge of Sandusky's crimes. "
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/19453429/emmert-ncaa-in-position-to-send-important-message-make-penn-state-pay


If Penn St is not heavily punished, the next President to face a situation may make the same calculation that Penn St did, "Well, this is going to really hurt the football program if I expose this and that coach seems like a nice guy. So let's just sweep this under the rug." This kind of heinous behavior must not be tolerated.

First of all Dpo, myself and others have never said it was 'no big deal' - poor choice of words(must be a politician).

If the NCAA ends up doing nothing, does that mean Sandusky, all those involved in a cover-up and Penn State itself would go 'unpunished?

The NCAA needs to keep an eye on whether PSU actually committed NCAA violations.
 

I agree with both of Dean S's excellent posts (they are excellent because he wrote them, not because I agree with them).

There was always something in the way Paterno carried himself that made me think that he was a megalomaniacal little pr*ck and what looks like his role in the cover-up of this sordid, vile affair only bears that out.

I agree with the Spencer Hall piece to some extent as I don't know what the NCAA getting involved actually accomplishes after the fact. On the other hand, the argument that there was a lack of institutional control over the football program also resonates. Hall's recognition of the Nancy Gracepoint is valid, however, and should alert us that getting angry just to get angry doesn't solve much of anything. The anger needs to lead to concrete action, but then again, no actions will likely be sufficient to make a subset of the pathologically angry less angry.

The NCAA is walking a very fine line here. Can't remember the commentator (I think it was Frank Deford) who predicted that the NCAA will be defunct by the end of the decade and whatever direction they go here is going to raise someone's ire.
 

Since we had links from the no-big-deal side, let's have links from the other side.
Oh jeebus. Get off your high horse. Those of us who are pushing for the NCAA to have actual rules violations in play before dropping the hammer aren't calling this no big deal. We're saying it's a huge deal that the NCAA has no real authority over. What Sandusky did was just evil. But the criminal justice system has handled him. Everyone who covered it up deserve to be punished. And the criminal justice system will handle them too. And Penn State is going to spend years and untold millions of dollars cleaning up the civil litigation that they are completely and rightfully liable for. Last but not least, there is a very good chance that the US Dept of Education could levy fines, penalties, or even without some/all federal funding for PSU because the actions of Curley, Schultz, and Spanier likely broke federal laws regarding the reporting of crime on a campus.

All of these responses are a good thing and all of them have one thing in common. They all fall within clearly written and already existing legal/statuatory frameworks. At best, all the NCAA has to fall back on is the "catch all" clause. I'm sorry, but I am not in favor of giving the thumbs up to an organization that already has power trip issues to go ahead and use a "we can make up the rule as we go" clause to punish players and coaches who had no part in this mess for actions that arguably didn't help the football program as a whole. What the cover up did do was keep Paterno, Curley, (and possibly Spanier and Schultz) from getting fired. But had they reported it, the program wouldn't have been crippled. Just like it isn't crippled now.

Dye contrasts what other programs who received the death penalty have done with what Penn St did.
There some important distinctions to make. Those other schools were A) repeat offenders and B) were clearly breaking actual, explicit NCAA rules. The NCAA was not forced to make up a ruling using a vaguely worded (i.e. would get struck down as unconstitutional if it were a criminal statue) catch-all provision. Their violations also had a clear link to benefiting the program in question.

Let's all ask ourselves, "What does Lack of Institutional Control mean, really?" It means that the school has basically lost control of the football program. It means that the school no longer does what's right and what's fair and legal and best for society and the university, it does what's best for the football program, all other considerations be damned. If that doesn't describe Penn St, I don't know what does.
Except, that's not how the NCAA describes it. The NCAA definitions of LOIC talk heavily about whether there are appropriate compliance procedures in place to catch NCAA rules violations and whether those procedures were enforced properly. That's kind of a problem here because the horrible illegal acts that took place here do not fall under the NCAA rulebook or the purview of the compliance department. The compliance officers aren't out there trying to make sure staff aren't raping kids or to make sure admins aren't covering up for the rapist. That's because this is a criminal legal issue, not an NCAA issue. What you describe is certainly accurate and it is fair to say that Penn State as an institution failed. But that is a criminal legal issue, a civil legal issue, and a federal statue issue. Not an NCAA issue.

This was not one guy off molesting kids on the side and nobody knew about it. Everybody knew about - everyone: the head coach, asst AD, AD, VP, President. They all knew. And what did they care about? The reputation of the football program. The entire school was corrupt and complicit to the core for years more - years - of grotesque child molestation and rape.
Interesting. I didn't know 4 people constituted the entireity of the school. And in the end it these horrible, evil acts are only NCAA violations if the NCAA uses a vaguely worded catch all rule to issue punishments in a way it's never been used before.

And for what purpose? People talk about those responsible needing to be punished. The NCAA can't punish them. They will however be held responsible for the criminal charges and for the civil penalties. People talk about PSU needing to be punished. Sanctioning the football team pales in comparison to the massive civil lawsuits and possible loss of federal funding they face. Both of those are infinitely worse for PSU as an institution than the loss of football. People talk about making sure other schools won't perform similar cover ups. And that's the one that I think is the most ridiculous. If the massive criminal, civil, and federal penalties in play here (not to mention their own decency as human beings) won't dissuade other coaches and admins from hiding horrible criminal acts then NCAA penalties aren't going to help. The only people the NCAA will be punishing is the currently football players and coaches. And if they impose the death penalty on FB, you can add in all the non-revenue athletes and coaches who will be affected by the loss of FB revenue.

If Penn St is not heavily punished, the next President to face a situation may make the same calculation that Penn St did, "Well, this is going to really hurt the football program if I expose this and that coach seems like a nice guy. So let's just sweep this under the rug." This kind of heinous behavior must not be tolerated.
As already noted, Penn State WILL BE heavily punished. And there is no way in hell any future president at PSU would ever think of doing the same after the feds and civil litigants get through with PSU.
 

Oh jeebus. Get off your high horse. Those of us who are pushing for the NCAA to have actual rules violations in play before dropping the hammer aren't calling this no big deal. We're saying it's a huge deal that the NCAA has no real authority over. What Sandusky did was just evil. But the criminal justice system has handled him. Everyone who covered it up deserve to be punished. And the criminal justice system will handle them too. And Penn State is going to spend years and untold millions of dollars cleaning up the civil litigation that they are completely and rightfully liable for. Last but not least, there is a very good chance that the US Dept of Education could levy fines, penalties, or even without some/all federal funding for PSU because the actions of Curley, Schultz, and Spanier likely broke federal laws regarding the reporting of crime on a campus.

All of these responses are a good thing and all of them have one thing in common. They all fall within clearly written and already existing legal/statuatory frameworks. At best, all the NCAA has to fall back on is the "catch all" clause. I'm sorry, but I am not in favor of giving the thumbs up to an organization that already has power trip issues to go ahead and use a "we can make up the rule as we go" clause to punish players and coaches who had no part in this mess for actions that arguably didn't help the football program as a whole. What the cover up did do was keep Paterno, Curley, (and possibly Spanier and Schultz) from getting fired. But had they reported it, the program wouldn't have been crippled. Just like it isn't crippled now.


There some important distinctions to make. Those other schools were A) repeat offenders and B) were clearly breaking actual, explicit NCAA rules. The NCAA was not forced to make up a ruling using a vaguely worded (i.e. would get struck down as unconstitutional if it were a criminal statue) catch-all provision. Their violations also had a clear link to benefiting the program in question.


Except, that's not how the NCAA describes it. The NCAA definitions of LOIC talk heavily about whether there are appropriate compliance procedures in place to catch NCAA rules violations and whether those procedures were enforced properly. That's kind of a problem here because the horrible illegal acts that took place here do not fall under the NCAA rulebook or the purview of the compliance department. The compliance officers aren't out there trying to make sure staff aren't raping kids or to make sure admins aren't covering up for the rapist. That's because this is a criminal legal issue, not an NCAA issue. What you describe is certainly accurate and it is fair to say that Penn State as an institution failed. But that is a criminal legal issue, a civil legal issue, and a federal statue issue. Not an NCAA issue.


Interesting. I didn't know 4 people constituted the entireity of the school. And in the end it these horrible, evil acts are only NCAA violations if the NCAA uses a vaguely worded catch all rule to issue punishments in a way it's never been used before.

And for what purpose? People talk about those responsible needing to be punished. The NCAA can't punish them. They will however be held responsible for the criminal charges and for the civil penalties. People talk about PSU needing to be punished. Sanctioning the football team pales in comparison to the massive civil lawsuits and possible loss of federal funding they face. Both of those are infinitely worse for PSU as an institution than the loss of football. People talk about making sure other schools won't perform similar cover ups. And that's the one that I think is the most ridiculous. If the massive criminal, civil, and federal penalties in play here (not to mention their own decency as human beings) won't dissuade other coaches and admins from hiding horrible criminal acts then NCAA penalties aren't going to help. The only people the NCAA will be punishing is the currently football players and coaches. And if they impose the death penalty on FB, you can add in all the non-revenue athletes and coaches who will be affected by the loss of FB revenue.


As already noted, Penn State WILL BE heavily punished. And there is no way in hell any future president at PSU would ever think of doing the same after the feds and civil litigants get through with PSU.

Very well said.
 


GoAUpher said:
The only people the NCAA will be punishing is the currently football players and coaches. And if they impose the death penalty on FB, you can add in all the non-revenue athletes and coaches who will be affected by the loss of FB revenue.

Won't they also be punishing the University who relies on football Saturday driven donations, the boosters who pay $20k for a tailgate spot, the fans on lionhole.com, ... The message is loud and clear, "Don't let your football program get this big or we will take it away from you".
 

Won't they also be punishing the University who relies on football Saturday driven donations, the boosters who pay $20k for a tailgate spot, the fans on lionhole.com, ... The message is loud and clear, "Don't let your football program get this big or we will take it away from you".

1) The University will lose much more from the lawsuits and (possibly) the feds then they will from the temporary death of the football program. NCAA punishment is the least of their financial worries right now. If the DoE were to pull federal funding over this you're talking about the possible death of PSU as an institution and with the number of victims involved the lawsuits will easily dwarf the financial penalties of losing FB.
2) The boosters and fans had nothing to do with this.
3) The size of the football program has nothing to do with this horrible situation. The same thing could have happened at a tiny football program with equally morally bankrupt leadership. That message won't mean as much to the leaders of universities as "you'll go to jail" or "you're university will face lawsuits that will run into the hundreds of millions of dollars and may lose federal funding entirely." This also assumes that other programs are being led by such worthless human beings.
 

GoAUpher said:
3) The size of the football program has nothing to do with this horrible situation. The same thing could have happened at a tiny football program with equally morally bankrupt leadership.

That's absurd. What they stood to lose was EVERYTHING in this situation. Would you have us believe that if Joe Paterno witnessed a hit and run that he'd avoid calling it in because he is morally bankrupt (i.e. a situation where he has nothing to lose)?
 

That's absurd. What they stood to lose was EVERYTHING in this situation. Would you have us believe that if Joe Paterno witnessed a hit and run that he'd avoid calling it in because he is morally bankrupt (i.e. a situation where he has nothing to lose)?

It's absurd to think this could have happened anywhere? The problem here was not the size of the program. The problem here is that individuals in a position to put a stop to it chose not to. This could happen anywhere where people in power decide to do the wrong thing. The "why" they do the wrong thing can be completely varied. I think you're right that they stood to lose everything. But "everything" in this sense doesn't even have to relate to the program. Their jobs (at least Paterno's and Curley's but arguably Spanier's too) were on the line even if they did report this because of how they let Sandusky have access to FB facilities after he left his job. A D-III school with lots of tradition but a completely tiny program could have this happen. A non-BCS program with no tradition could have this happen. It could happen to protect a friend/colleague. It could happen for financial reasons. And on and on. Pretending that it could only happen at a school with a big football program is just plain stupid.

Your hit and run example is not applicable for the very reason you state...the situations aren't comparable.
 

If McDonalds gave you an after hours key, and you lured young boys with Happy Meals, I am guessing there would be some problems for McDonalds. Particularly if the person who had knowledge you had a key knew that you might not be just feeding hungry kids. A random shooting a McDonalds is a tragedy--this isn't that. This is not taking the keys from a friend who regularly drives drunk and he's been served at your party. Because it might be uncomfortable for you and him.

I am at the point where I don't care if the NCAA takes action or not. I might even be in agreement that they don't have authority. I can't agree that this had nothing to do with protecting Penn Staate football.
 

The McDonald's analogy isn't a good one because the same things that would happen in the McDonald's example (criminal prosecution and civil lawsuits) has already happened/will be happening to Penn State and the individuals involved. There is no outside organization with some authority over McDonald's that could possibly apply other penalties. McDonald's corporate (or the franchise ownership) could close the store I suppose, but they don't need rules to be broken to do that. They can do so on a whim.

Not picking on you stpaulguy, you didn't start the analogy.
 

Hey, I'm proud how civil this conversation has been. Gopher fans are good people.
 

I always like the way non-compliance related folk describe the need that the rules have to be written down for the institution to get involved. Well, ethical violations, which this falls under, are sometimes found in common and are therefore not needed to be written down. They are as the founders would say, "self evident". Happy Independence Day, everyone!
 

GoAUpher said:
It's absurd to think this could have happened anywhere? The problem here was not the size of the program. The problem here is that individuals in a position to put a stop to it chose not to. This could happen anywhere where people in power decide to do the wrong thing. The "why" they do the wrong thing can be completely varied. I think you're right that they stood to lose everything. But "everything" in this sense doesn't even have to relate to the program. Their jobs (at least Paterno's and Curley's but arguably Spanier's too) were on the line even if they did report this because of how they let Sandusky have access to FB facilities after he left his job. A D-III school with lots of tradition but a completely tiny program could have this happen. A non-BCS program with no tradition could have this happen. It could happen to protect a friend/colleague. It could happen for financial reasons. And on and on. Pretending that it could only happen at a school with a big football program is just plain stupid.

Your hit and run example is not applicable for the very reason you state...the situations aren't comparable.

I'll concede the point that it could happen anywhere.

To me the question is, presuming that Joe &or Curley changed the direction and prevented the report, was this act something that benefitted the program? A person can have only three opinions on that question,

1. Suppressing the fact that your 30 year assistant is a pedophile is good for the program
2. Suppressing the fact that your 30 year assistant is a pedophile is bad for the program (i.e. it would help the program if it came out)
3. Adding up all of the pro's and con's of the public learning that your 30 year assistant is a pedophile it has a net neutral effect on the program

If you are in group #1, you'd hope for at least a self imposed penalty. You might be opposed to an NCAA penalty because you don't want them to break new ground. No reasonable person is in group #2. If you are in group #3, I don't think you've thought this through. If there are no pros, and only cons, how can it be a net neutral?

P.s. I'm using the proverbial you here, not referring to you AU.1
 

I'll concede the point that it could happen anywhere.

To me the question is, presuming that Joe &or Curley changed the direction and prevented the report, was this act something that benefitted the program? A person can have only three opinions on that question,

1. Suppressing the fact that your 30 year assistant is a pedophile is good for the program
2. Suppressing the fact that your 30 year assistant is a pedophile is bad for the program (i.e. it would help the program if it came out)
3. Adding up all of the pro's and con's of the public learning that your 30 year assistant is a pedophile it has a net neutral effect on the program

If you are in group #1, you'd hope for at least a self imposed penalty. You might be opposed to an NCAA penalty because you don't want them to break new ground. No reasonable person is in group #2. If you are in group #3, I don't think you've thought this through. If there are no pros, and only cons, how can it be a net neutral?

P.s. I'm using the proverbial you here, not referring to you AU.1

When assessing ethics, you do not use an economic equation. You ask was there wrong done or not. And, then you proceed from there. So, it does not fit the model you describe above. Again, I am amazed at how we think ethics has something to do with management, other than managements common obligation to abide by a common ethical structure and decision making process. I think most kids these days get the Officer (fill in the blank) lecture on thou shall not be touched by, mmmmmmm, the time they are in kindergarten. At least that is when my girls reported it to me -- in Kindergarten. At least that is how we teach kids in Northfield. Usually, I think B-School skips pedophilia since it has already been covered in Kindergarten. But, then again, that may have been forgotten by the time the MBAs roll out to the money making institutions of the land. It is no wonder why MBAs have a higher than average incarceration rate for white collar crimes. Then again, those with Masters usually have a higher rate of having a low ethical standard than just about every other educational demographic.

I have no idea who you are, but I am hoping you use other ethical decision making processes in every day life because the one you offered is bereft of any ethical structure, at least one that can be reasonably be discussed.
 




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