Updates About Penn State Scandal UPDATED 6/12: PSU has spent $45.9M on scandal

Dean S said:
When assessing ethics, you do not use an economic equation. You ask was there wrong done or not. And, then you proceed from there. So, it does not fit the model you describe above. Again, I am amazed at how we think ethics has something to do with management, other than managements common obligation to abide by a common ethical structure and decision making process. I think most kids these days get the Officer (fill in the blank) lecture on thou shall not be touched by, mmmmmmm, the time they are in kindergarten. At least that is when my girls reported it to me -- in Kindergarten. At least that is how we teach kids in Northfield. Usually, I think B-School skips pedophilia since it has already been covered in Kindergarten. But, then again, that may have been forgotten by the time the MBAs roll out to the money making institutions of the land. It is no wonder why MBAs have a higher than average incarceration rate for white collar crimes. Then again, those with Masters usually have a higher rate of having a low ethical standard than just about every other educational demographic.

I have no idea who you are, but I am hoping you use other ethical decision making processes in every day life because the one you offered is bereft of any ethical structure, at least one that can be reasonably be discussed.

Thanks professor. Please lay out your alternate framework and conclusions in detail. You've piqued my interest.

In case you haven't reviewed the thread in detail, the question being debated is, "Should the Penn State Football program suffer some competition related sanction, either self imposed, imposed by the conference, or imposed by the NCAA, because of the actions of their athletic staff and officers in the case of Jerry Sandusky"?
 

Good discussion here and I'll try to contribute without veering way off course. DeanS, how are things in Northfield? I grew up just east of there in Cannon Falls. Anyway, back at good old St. Ansgar's Lutheran, our post-confirmation Sunday School teacher posed a paradox one Sunday morning. It went like this. Billy is a high school kid whose father is dead and whose mother is incapacitated, meaning Billy needs to get a job (it's important to remember that this was the 1960s and government assistance was not as comprehensive as it is now). Billy proceeds to get a job at a grocery store. One of his jobs is to put apples in boxes (again, this is the 1960s and those of you who are not old enough to remember that you bought apples by the box back the, please bear with me). The grocer instructed Billy to put only "good" apples on top for the customer to see while placing "bad" apples underneath. Now Billy needs the job. It's the only job in town for which he is qualified to perform. His mother needs the money. What does Billy do? Needless to say, watching a bunch of 15 and 16 year olds grapple with this was not a pretty sight by any stretch.

What does this have to do with Penn State you ask? I realize it's a tortured comparison as the crimes committed by Sandusky are much greater than a couple of rotten apples in a box of Granny Smiths. But in Paterno's (and the PSU administration's) eyes, going public with this problem served little or no purpose as long as Sandusky was let go. The problem, of course, is that they allowed Sandusky to linger after he was no longer officially associated with PSU. And there is, as badgergopher points out, an economic angle to all of this and morals get consistently compromised by economics. JoePa reasoned (and I believe it was Kant who posited that the insane man reasons correctly from false premises) that dragging down the Penn State program by making Sandusky's actions and any subsequent punishment public would unfairly penalize those people who didn't do anything wrong and would be tarred by association. And economics played a huge role in that equation. Again, I'm not arguing right or wrong here, I just think the complications of the economic angle add a significant variable that clearly contributed to Penn State's lack of transparency and that could translate into complicity.

I can't remember the author, but I somewhat remember the quote that "the average German in the 1930s wasn't evil, he was merely self-interested." While, as in the case of my earlier example, this is a bit tortured, but the question here is should the entire Penn State community be punished for the actions of the few? Clearly those who either enabled or failed to adequately deal with Sandusky should be brought to justice, but does penalizing the unknowing in all of this accomplish much of anything.

As I said in an earlier post, the NCAA is in a really interesting spot with this crisis. The public pressure will be on it to obliterate Penn State regardless of whether or not it is in their mission to do that.

Anyway, I apologize for the ramble.
 

Gregg Doyel: Give Penn State liberty or give them death

I'm not a fan of Doyel, but I like his take on the Penn State scandal. I agree with Doyel that this is not a NCAA infractions issue (unless somewhere in the muck rule violations are uncovered), but IF the NCAA/Emmert decide to take this on, they best be prepared to go the distance vs. Penn State.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoo...penn-state-football-if-the-ncaa-gets-involved
 

SelectionSunday said:
IF the NCAA/Emmert decide to take this on, they best be prepared to go the distance vs. Penn State.

I tend to agree. That is why I don't think the NCAA would be likely to strengthen any self imposed penalty. I don't think we're talking about the so called 'death penalty' here. I think we're talking about a one year post season ban and two years of minor scholarship reductions along with the introduction of some stronger institutional controls. Indeed, the institutional controls may become a new standard nationally (i.e. some type of annual athletics review with board of trustees &or Sarbanes-Oxley type attestation by all officers with athletics oversight).

I'm still a little surprised they didn't skip the bowl last year like Miami did. I guess if they knew then where this appears to be going, they might have decided differently. That bowl game was a disaster, with an interim head coach, and few fans wanting to travel. Puzzling.
 

Keep in mind the the University and the individuals associated with this debacle will all pay a heavy price whether the ncaa imposes sanctions or not.

If the ncaa wants to impose some type of morality ruling, they will be walking a very slippery slope.
 



Good discussion here and I'll try to contribute without veering way off course. DeanS, how are things in Northfield? I grew up just east of there in Cannon Falls. Anyway, back at good old St. Ansgar's Lutheran, our post-confirmation Sunday School teacher posed a paradox one Sunday morning. It went like this. Billy is a high school kid whose father is dead and whose mother is incapacitated, meaning Billy needs to get a job (it's important to remember that this was the 1960s and government assistance was not as comprehensive as it is now). Billy proceeds to get a job at a grocery store. One of his jobs is to put apples in boxes (again, this is the 1960s and those of you who are not old enough to remember that you bought apples by the box back the, please bear with me). The grocer instructed Billy to put only "good" apples on top for the customer to see while placing "bad" apples underneath. Now Billy needs the job. It's the only job in town for which he is qualified to perform. His mother needs the money. What does Billy do? Needless to say, watching a bunch of 15 and 16 year olds grapple with this was not a pretty sight by any stretch.

What does this have to do with Penn State you ask? I realize it's a tortured comparison as the crimes committed by Sandusky are much greater than a couple of rotten apples in a box of Granny Smiths. But in Paterno's (and the PSU administration's) eyes, going public with this problem served little or no purpose as long as Sandusky was let go. The problem, of course, is that they allowed Sandusky to linger after he was no longer officially associated with PSU. And there is, as badgergopher points out, an economic angle to all of this and morals get consistently compromised by economics. JoePa reasoned (and I believe it was Kant who posited that the insane man reasons correctly from false premises) that dragging down the Penn State program by making Sandusky's actions and any subsequent punishment public would unfairly penalize those people who didn't do anything wrong and would be tarred by association. And economics played a huge role in that equation. Again, I'm not arguing right or wrong here, I just think the complications of the economic angle add a significant variable that clearly contributed to Penn State's lack of transparency and that could translate into complicity.

I can't remember the author, but I somewhat remember the quote that "the average German in the 1930s wasn't evil, he was merely self-interested." While, as in the case of my earlier example, this is a bit tortured, but the question here is should the entire Penn State community be punished for the actions of the few? Clearly those who either enabled or failed to adequately deal with Sandusky should be brought to justice, but does penalizing the unknowing in all of this accomplish much of anything.

As I said in an earlier post, the NCAA is in a really interesting spot with this crisis. The public pressure will be on it to obliterate Penn State regardless of whether or not it is in their mission to do that.

Anyway, I apologize for the ramble.

Tylenol, anyone?
 

Keep in mind the the University and the individuals associated with this debacle will all pay a heavy price whether the ncaa imposes sanctions or not.

If the ncaa wants to impose some type of morality ruling, they will be walking a very slippery slope.

You've said better in one sentence what I tried to say in my sophomoric ramble. I agree with you completely. But the pressure on them from the "Nancy Graces" of the world is going to be relentless.
 

My gut tells me that the NCAA will be very leery of getting involved in this case until all of the legal ramifications and lawsuits have worked themselves out. If the former AD, President and others involved in the (apparent/alleged) coverup wind up doing jail time, or getting nailed financially through civil suits, I think the NCAA will feel that 'justice' has been done.

But, if for some legal technicality, the alleged wrong-doers do not incur any significant penalty, then the NCAA will face a lot more pressure to step in and take some action. I also think that, as we speak, the NCAA has its in-house legal staff pouring through the rulebook to decide what type of action, if any, would be supported under the current guidelines. Bottom line - this story isn't going anywhere. It will be a backdrop to the entire 2012 season and possibly beyond, which can't help Penn State's recruiting.
 



My gut tells me that the NCAA will be very leery of getting involved in this case until all of the legal ramifications and lawsuits have worked themselves out. If the former AD, President and others involved in the (apparent/alleged) coverup wind up doing jail time, or getting nailed financially through civil suits, I think the NCAA will feel that 'justice' has been done.

But, if for some legal technicality, the alleged wrong-doers do not incur any significant penalty, then the NCAA will face a lot more pressure to step in and take some action. I also think that, as we speak, the NCAA has its in-house legal staff pouring through the rulebook to decide what type of action, if any, would be supported under the current guidelines. Bottom line - this story isn't going anywhere. It will be a backdrop to the entire 2012 season and possibly beyond, which can't help Penn State's recruiting.

The NCAA will have the luxury of waiting for everyone else to get their "pound of flesh" and then just using all the documented investigations instead of needing to really do their own. So they'll be last to act, can see what data is available, what happens to everyone, etc. After legal fees, law suits, DofE, this could very well cost PSU a billion with a B. And yes they can punish them if they want to as their parameters are fairly open ended. I've discussed this with a former PSU player who had Sandusky as his coach and who is/was on the committee that decided on the new coach. He agrees with my possible scenario and says they are just waiting to see what happens like everyone else.
 

Just a few thoughts:
When the lawyers are done with Penn St., the financial penalties will be quite severe. They will be writing checks for the next ten years. There is a lawyer who's name escapes me that was involved with suing the Catholic Church that is representing some of the Penn St. victims. I wouldn't want to be on that guys bad side.
I don't know what the NCAA can do unless during the investigation, they uncover some shenanigans that are actually related to NCAA violations.
 

drinks - the lawyer's name is Jeff Anderson. I heard that he was going to get involved in the Penn St. scandal also.
 

drinks - the lawyer's name is Jeff Anderson. I heard that he was going to get involved in the Penn St. scandal also.

I believe he is from Minnesota but I don't believe he is "Minnesota Nice".
 




Keep in mind the the University and the individuals associated with this debacle will all pay a heavy price whether the ncaa imposes sanctions or not.

If the ncaa wants to impose some type of morality ruling, they will be walking a very slippery slope.

I think this might be the best and most succinct summary of what I've been trying to say. As you say station, +19.
 

My gut tells me that the NCAA will be very leery of getting involved in this case until all of the legal ramifications and lawsuits have worked themselves out. If the former AD, President and others involved in the (apparent/alleged) coverup wind up doing jail time, or getting nailed financially through civil suits, I think the NCAA will feel that 'justice' has been done.

But, if for some legal technicality, the alleged wrong-doers do not incur any significant penalty, then the NCAA will face a lot more pressure to step in and take some action. I also think that, as we speak, the NCAA has its in-house legal staff pouring through the rulebook to decide what type of action, if any, would be supported under the current guidelines. Bottom line - this story isn't going anywhere. It will be a backdrop to the entire 2012 season and possibly beyond, which can't help Penn State's recruiting.

I don't disagree that the pressure will mount on the NCAA to add punishments if the legal penalties are deemed too weak, but that simply highlights the absurdity of looking to the NCAA for justice here in the first place given that this is a criminal/civil legal issue.

If NCAA rules were broken then the NCAA should be handing out punishments for the violations regardless of what happens in the criminal or civil systems. This is why I dislike those suggesting that a "catch all" rule be used if no specific violations are found. It's the kind of framework that the NCAA can use to essentially make up a rule after the fact to call things a violation. That's why this sort of language can't exist in the actual legal system…too much potential for abuse.
 

The NCAA will have the luxury of waiting for everyone else to get their "pound of flesh" and then just using all the documented investigations instead of needing to really do their own. So they'll be last to act, can see what data is available, what happens to everyone, etc.

I fully agree with this. The NCAA has no subpena powers so waiting out the legal process gives them the ability to let the real legal system do the legwork for them (which is how the NCAA case against USC for Reggie Bush got started).
 

I fully agree with this. The NCAA has no subpena powers so waiting out the legal process gives them the ability to let the real legal system do the legwork for them (which is how the NCAA case against USC for Reggie Bush got started).

Yep. +1
 


I think Paterno's legacy will be tainted, but not so much that people forget all the success. It's terrible what happened, but as with all powerful people when they do something wrong people are either afraid to come forward or those that do don't have the greatest credibility. Sandusky got away scott free until he picked on the wrong kid.

You could be referring to Joe Paterno as well as Sandusky. How in the hell could he have let Sandusky hang around in his sight with kids after what Paterno was told? To me, that's the most damning thing.

Also, I wonder if they will investigate Sandusky resigning his coaching position a couple of years before the shower incident. Here was an assistant coach seen as the successor to Paterno. All sorts of accolades bestowed on him. Authored books on defense and linebacking. The father of "Linebacking U". And he resigns just because he wanted to run his foundation? Sorry, I don't buy it. Maybe he'll write a sequel to Touched really explaining what happened. Thankfully, he'll have time.
 

Penn St Report on Sandusky mess to come out on Thursday, quoted by FBI Director Freeh.
 


He is and he has made a fortune suing the Catholic church.

He only became "Minnesota Nice" after he won all those large settlements. He didn't want to and tried not to but he couldn't stop smiling.
 

The NCAA will have the luxury of waiting for everyone else to get their "pound of flesh" and then just using all the documented investigations instead of needing to really do their own. So they'll be last to act, can see what data is available, what happens to everyone, etc. After legal fees, law suits, DofE, this could very well cost PSU a billion with a B. And yes they can punish them if they want to as their parameters are fairly open ended. I've discussed this with a former PSU player who had Sandusky as his coach and who is/was on the committee that decided on the new coach. He agrees with my possible scenario and says they are just waiting to see what happens like everyone else.

Was just forwarded an email from my PSU buddy that was sent to him from Jay Paterno via Brandon Short. He's concerned that the Freeh report will "attack the culture of football" that Joe had created which in his opinion was a positive and done the right way. That report will be released on Thursday.
 

News reports today indicate that PSU already has a letter from Emmert asking for their response to four questions. Does anyone know what was asked or is it non-public?
 


We've been debating what the NCAA will or won't do, but what really is missing in the Debate is what can happen with the "Clery Act". The section on the Clery act starts around page 110 of the report.

Any institution that participates in federal financial aid, must report crime statistics to the Federal Department of Education. The DOE has the ability to issue fines for violations or, in extreme cases, end federal funding to the institution. The Clery Act broadly defines the term "Campus Security Authority" as the following entitites highlighted by Freeh: "An official of an institution who has significant responsibility for student and campus activities" and later on: "a director of athletics, a team coach..."

Basically, because the sexual crimes were not reported to the police, nor reported to the DOE. Penn State could be in a mess of trouble when it comes to the Federal Government and their accreditation. The extreme would be if their accreditation as a University would be stripped when their current accreditation ends in 2014-15.

No accreditation is unanimous grounds for removal from the NCAA.

That is why this is a football issue.
 


Pulling their accreditation seems excessive but I am for them shutting down the football program or at least pull all scholarships and ban post season play for 10 years.
 





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