Updates About Penn State Scandal UPDATED 6/12: PSU has spent $45.9M on scandal

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Couldn't disagree with you more. EVERYBODY at that program 'had something to do with it'. The only exception would possibly be the current coach and (non-PSU) assistants but they all knew damn well what they were getting into so burn them all too.
 

Mick Turition said:
Couldn't disagree with you more. EVERYBODY at that program 'had something to do with it'. The only exception would possibly be the current coach and (non-PSU) assistants but they all knew damn well what they were getting into so burn them all too.
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You commit tax fraud,you go to prison. Your wife didn't know. The Feds still take your house. Things just are not that easy.

Allow the current student atheletes to transfer, if the NCAA invokes a penalty.
 

Mick Turition said:
Couldn't disagree with you more. EVERYBODY at that program 'had something to do with it'. The only exception would possibly be the current coach and (non-PSU) assistants but they all knew damn well what they were getting into so burn them all too.
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I'm just wondering about Ed DeChellis, former PSU basketball coach. Do you think he probably could have predicted the ramification of the case, and decided to be at Navy. I've always thought his move to Navy is quite unusual. Just pure speculation.
 

FreakyDeke said:
The penalty is worse: jail. For the people responsible. Nobody at Penn State now had anything to do with it.
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I'm sorry but I hate when people say this. How many decades of people at SMU were punished because of the actions of people before them? We should maybe apologize to basketball players in the late 90s and early 2000s for the actions of the Jan Gangelhoff papers. When you go to a college, you have to deal with what happens to that school. Now, I think if a death penalty (or major consequences) are handed to PSU I think all the players should be given free releases to whatever school they want.
 

Prado89 said:
I'm just wondering about Ed DeChellis, former PSU basketball coach. Do you think he probably could have predicted the ramification of the case, and decided to be at Navy. I've always thought his move to Navy is quite unusual. Just pure speculation.
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I don't think DeChellis' move had anything to do with this. Penn St doesn't care about its basketball team and DeChellis had poor facilities and resources. He rode Talor Battle as far as he would take him and cashed out. DeChellis would probably have been fired if he stayed at Penn St another year or two, so he settled for the job at the Naval Academy.
 


MNfootballfan said:
I'm sorry but I hate when people say this. How many decades of people at SMU were punished because of the actions of people before them? We should maybe apologize to basketball players in the late 90s and early 2000s for the actions of the Jan Gangelhoff papers. When you go to a college, you have to deal with what happens to that school. Now, I think if a death penalty (or major consequences) are handed to PSU I think all the players should be given free releases to whatever school they want.
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+1,Innocent people are going to be negatively affected by bad decisions made by people who are in charge of an institution as large as Penn St. The punishment shouldn't be less severe because there may be innocent people affected. The punishment should fit the crime.
 


BleedGopher said:
By what means could NCAA enact "death penalty"?

http://blog.pennlive.com/davidjones/2012/07/by_what_means_could_ncaa_enact.html

Go Gophers!!
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This concept of a vote seems more and more likely. The NCAA through its members would be well within its rights to suspend PSU membership. Suspending only football feels more problematic. It seems like the ex post facto application of a new rule (as some have said "mob rule"). Not sure how they will balance this.

I don't think they need to kill off football in order to mete out the right punishment. I do think they need to force PSU to start over however. The USC penalties weren't deep enough to cause them to start over. Taking away half of their scholarships for four years would cause them to start over.

I'd like to pose a question to the group. If they do get the so called "death penalty" for a minimum of two years or an indeterminate period do you expel them from the conference? If the impact were anything like SMU, I'm not sure it would make sense to have them around. I think in the case of SMU the university deemphasized football by moving them out of the cotton bowl, etc., so perhaps the same thing would not happen at PSU?
 

badgergopher said:
This concept of a vote seems more and more likely. The NCAA through its members would be well within its rights to suspend PSU membership. Suspending only football feels more problematic. It seems like the ex post facto application of a new rule (as some have said "mob rule"). Not sure how they will balance this.

I don't think they need to kill off football in order to mete out the right punishment. I do think they need to force PSU to start over however. The USC penalties weren't deep enough to cause them to start over. Taking away half of their scholarships for four years would cause them to start over.

I'd like to pose a question to the group. If they do get the so called "death penalty" for a minimum of two years or an indeterminate period do you expel them from the conference? If the impact were anything like SMU, I'm not sure it would make sense to have them around. I think in the case of SMU the university deemphasized football by moving them out of the cotton bowl, etc., so perhaps the same thing would not happen at PSU?
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To me it's a bit of apples and oranges or at least Granny Smiths to Golden Delicious. Texas is football crazy, so I'm not saying SMU didn't have a tradition, but at least nationally, that tradition wasn't as deep and impressive as Penn State's is in the current era. SMU was always a "nice" second-tier program more about great individual talents than consistent team success. Penn State, by comparison, is a juggernaut. SMU is similar, in some respects, to the situation at Minnesota in that they are located in a large metropolitan area and de-emphasizing the program did not have a large ripple effect on the larger community. Penn State is geographically isolated and I think that complicates matters as well. It would seem to me that you can't de-emphasize football at Penn State without de-emphasizing the entire Penn State community in the process. Not saying it couldn't be done, but not having 100,000+ in your community six or seven Saturdays in the fall would really put a crimp in the whatever local economy serves the Penn State area.

I've said it before and I'll keep singing the same tune. I think the vote by the NCAA members, while likely, would be a paradigm-shifting precedent. Perhaps incidents like the Penn State situation require that shift, but what would be next on the docket? Seems it could become a situation not unlike the United Nations General Assembly, where grievance after grievance are taken to a vote that if and when passed often have rubber teeth. If the NCAA goes down this road, I think there will be an exacerbation of the bifurcation that currently exists between the big (few and powerful) and the small (numerous and grasping) that would threaten to blow up the whole organization.
 



Something to keep in mind:

Most(if not all) NCAA infractions are not illegal activities in the eyes of the law. Because of that the penalties handed down by the NCAA more often than not, punish people that had no hand in the infractions. It's their only recourse.

At this point there are no proven NCAA infractions and the bylaws state the death penalty is to schools committing infractions when already on probation.

The Penn St situation is much more serious and therefore there are laws against these actions. All the people involved in this action have been released. Sandusky has been sent to prison(presumably for the rest of his life). Others will be facing criminal charges and possibly spending jail time. The school's reputation has been severely tarnished and will face civil suits that by all accounts will be in excess of $100 million. These are laws and punishments that have been deemed appropriate by society. If Paterno were still alive it would be real interesting.

If the NCAA were to impose penalties(especially the death penalty), they would be adding penalties to many parties that were not involved in these crimes.

Schools like USC and SMU were punished by the NCAA and could not be punished by the legal system. Penn St has, and will be.

If the NCAA were to impose none or minor sanctions, it would by no means mean 'they were getting off easy'. Our legal system is taking care of that.
 

badgergopher said:
This concept of a vote seems more and more likely. The NCAA through its members would be well within its rights to suspend PSU membership. Suspending only football feels more problematic. It seems like the ex post facto application of a new rule (as some have said "mob rule"). Not sure how they will balance this.

I don't think they need to kill off football in order to mete out the right punishment. I do think they need to force PSU to start over however. The USC penalties weren't deep enough to cause them to start over. Taking away half of their scholarships for four years would cause them to start over.

I'd like to pose a question to the group. If they do get the so called "death penalty" for a minimum of two years or an indeterminate period do you expel them from the conference? If the impact were anything like SMU, I'm not sure it would make sense to have them around. I think in the case of SMU the university deemphasized football by moving them out of the cotton bowl, etc., so perhaps the same thing would not happen at PSU?
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Ex post facto affects private organizations in a very limited manner. As others on this board have pointed out clearly, there are NCAA rules that can be applied to this situation. There are many who are blinded by the rhetoric that the rules don't apply to this case.

If a motion were made in the organization to expel a member for ethical violations, it is up to the members to determine if the charge is sufficient to kick them out. Especially if they suspend the rules and vote solely on the question. Everybody wants the rule of law, but in the NCAA, they are who they say they are at the moment a vote comes up. Under this scenario, they are declaring a rule and acting on a membership question in one vote. If they suspend the rules on the question, Roberts Rules would not apply and only the vote itself would apply. Consider it a one off question. It simplifies the procedure and it is clean.

All you parliamentarians can debate the merits of it, but that is how it can work.
 

station19 said:
If the NCAA were to impose none or minor sanctions, it would by no means mean 'they were getting off easy'. Our legal system is taking care of that.
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I think all of your points are valid, but to pose a hypothetical. Imagine if PSU rattled off 14 wins and won the national championship this year. I think a majority of people would have a problem with that. I don't think the barrier between past actors culpable for their crimes and present actors innocent and inspiring is that fixed for most people. I think many people, and I count myself among them, see the coverup as executed to feed the beast, Penn State Football, manifest in the reputation of its leader. If Penn State Football were to enjoy immediate success, it would feel like the master of puppets, the corporate Penn State Football, had emerged unscathed.
 

badgergopher said:
I think all of your points are valid, but to pose a hypothetical. Imagine if PSU rattled off 14 wins and won the national championship this year. I think a majority of people would have a problem with that. I don't think the barrier between past actors culpable for their crimes and present actors innocent and inspiring is that fixed for most people. I think many people, and I count myself among them, see the coverup as executed to feed the beast, Penn State Football, manifest in the reputation of its leader. If Penn State Football were to enjoy immediate success, it would feel like the master of puppets, the corporate Penn State Football, had emerged unscathed.
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I see what you are saying, but the individuals would all be punished and the school will also have paid a price.

Giving Penn St the death penalty would hurt numerous individuals and programs that in no way were involved. The current players and coaches at Penn St as well all the other schools on their schedule.-Loss in income for all the non-revenue sports at all the school and their athletes. I see no need for Minnesota and the rest of the Big Ten schools to pay a price for Penn State's actions.

The best case scenario would be for Penn St to self impose some penalties such post season ban and loss of scholarships. This would also take the NCAA off the hook for going somewhere they shouldn't.

I would be more comfortable with the Big Ten imposing sanctions than the NCAA.
 



badgergopher said:
I think all of your points are valid, but to pose a hypothetical. Imagine if PSU rattled off 14 wins and won the national championship this year. I think a majority of people would have a problem with that. I don't think the barrier between past actors culpable for their crimes and present actors innocent and inspiring is that fixed for most people. I think many people, and I count myself among them, see the coverup as executed to feed the beast, Penn State Football, manifest in the reputation of its leader. If Penn State Football were to enjoy immediate success, it would feel like the master of puppets, the corporate Penn State Football, had emerged unscathed.
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To add another point:

I'd rather see said school rattle off 14(make that 12 I guess) wins than see MN or other schools and programs lose money from the loss of games.

A self imposed ban of post season would take care of the national championship scenario.
 

station19 said:
To add another point:

I'd rather see said school rattle off 14(make that 12 I guess) wins than see MN or other schools and programs lose money from the loss of games.

A self imposed ban of post season would take care of the national championship scenario.
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This is what I'd like to see. No postseason for 3 years and a reduction in scholarships. Then allow players to transfer without having to sit out a year.
 

GophersInIowa said:
This is what I'd like to see. No postseason for 3 years and a reduction in scholarships. Then allow players to transfer without having to sit out a year.
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Sounds good to me, but I would like to see it self-imposed.
 

station19 said:
Sounds good to me, but I would like to see it self-imposed.
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Agree. This would be the best case. They would still get the gate and t. v. money to support all the non-revenue sports. I think the scholarship reductions need to be enough to keep them in the basement for at least 2-3 years.
 


station19 said:
Sounds good to me, but I would like to see it self-imposed.
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Yeah that's what I meant, sorry if it was confusing. They do those things themselves, I think that would make most people satisfied.
 



Self governance is a fool's errand. It is like my wife's defense of her dissertation. It is hard to listen to the criticism, but it made her better for letting it happen. If PSU fails to listen to outside critics of its culture, then it will never hear what needs to be improved or what fails under scrutiny. The whole point of having the NCAA is to help restore PSU to good standing and to improve its product. We all benefit from that external criticism. The NCAA punishment is only one action of many that seek to restore PSU to good standing in the world of sport and general acceptance.

For me, PSU has not behaved well as a member of the B!G. It is better for the NCAA determine the status of PSU than the conference, which PSU competes.
 

". Maybe they ought to tax all the tickets they sell on athletics and give the proceeds to some child abuse organization or something like that, "

Sure, make all the ticket buyers pay for Penn State's mistakes.
 

station19 said:
". Maybe they ought to tax all the tickets they sell on athletics and give the proceeds to some child abuse organization or something like that, "

Sure, make all the ticket buyers pay for Penn State's mistakes.
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No matter what the punishment is, someone other than the people who perpetrated the crime will be paying the price.
 

It's not just the particular individuals, but the organization that gets punished. I see no reason why an organization should be able to wash its hands of the bad, but accept the credit for the good.
 

RodentRampage said:
It's not just the particular individuals, but the organization that gets punished. I see no reason why an organization should be able to wash its hands of the bad, but accept the credit for the good.
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That's the problem with punishing an organization. Where does the line between the individuals and the organization fall? I'm not entirely sure Penn State shouldn't be punished, but I still have lots of questions about in my mind about it. I just think people will not find what they are looking for in any punishment that is meted out. I write an article about it that explains my thoughts. Click on the link at the bottom if you are interested. I'm sure many will disagree with me, but the article explains my line of thinking right now.
 

To Be Named Later said:
No matter what the punishment is, someone other than the people who perpetrated the crime will be paying the price.
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Every attempt should be made to not punish the 'other people'.

Penn St AND THE INDIVIDUALS in the fiasco will be paying a huge price without any NCAA sanctions.

This 'punish them so I feel better' mentality is BS.
 



To Be Named Later said:
That's the problem with punishing an organization. Where does the line between the individuals and the organization fall? I'm not entirely sure Penn State shouldn't be punished, but I still have lots of questions about in my mind about it. I just think people will not find what they are looking for in any punishment that is meted out. I write an article about it that explains my thoughts. Click on the link at the bottom if you are interested. I'm sure many will disagree with me, but the article explains my line of thinking right now.
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If an organization cannot be held responsible for what it does wrong, then how can it claim credit for what it does right? If we can say that the because the individuals are gone, the organization is no longer accountable for the bad, then surely once those individuals that do good are gone, the organiztion can't claim credit for their actions. Are a businesses assets or debts wiped out when the people who caused them are no longer part of the business?
 

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