UPDATED 6/2: Joey King a Gopher, on full scholarship!

[HOOP DREAMS]

Agree with you completely on Buckles. No idea about that last scholarship though. Pitino must be feeling good about Black or is going to take Malik Smith.

FIU transfer Malik Smith is telling people that the #Gophers have offered. He's seeking a waiver to be eligible right away wherever he goes

 

[BigGopherFan]

Absolutely anybody can average 7 points a game coming off the bench, playing behind upperclassmen, as a freshman in the Missouri Valley Conference, for crying out loud. Anybody can put up 20 in a DI college game as a freshman. I mean he did only do it twice so it's kind of a fluke. All freshman 1st team...big deal it's MVC. They only had one team in the Final Four. You know what? Why stop at Winona? I think he'd excel even better at St Thomas. If you had just a bit of personal experience you'd have some idea how good somebody needs to be to average 7 points....sounds easy...it ain't...especially for a freshman and then one coming off the bench? He's not Larry Bird but he'd play and contribute at a position of need. The m.o. is he works hard. That's contagious. To be clear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOnRHAyXqYY

I think you diminishing how strong Division II basketball is. DII programs can offer upwards of eight (8) full scholarships, meaning every single starter on the WSU basketball team in on a full ride -- just like every Division I school in the country. There are countless number of Division I players that contributed in some fashion at a Division I school only to drop down to DII and have only a moderate amount of success. The difference between low-major Division I schools and high-level Division II schools is diminishing. Some would argue there is no difference. There is no guarantee because he averaged a whopping 6.9 ppg on a terrible Drake team that he would do even decent at Minnesota. Looking at his tape, he looks like a Division II player, WHICH ISN'T AN INSULT. St. Thomas, as you may know, is Division III and does not offer athletic scholarships.

Not every DI player would dominate at the DII level. That's foolish to imply.

 

[scher215]

Nm

 

[howieramone]

Nm

+1

 

[scher215]

I think you diminishing how strong Division II basketball is. DII programs can offer upwards of eight (8) full scholarships, meaning every single starter on the WSU basketball team in on a full ride -- just like every Division I school in the country. There are countless number of Division I players that contributed in some fashion at a Division I school only to drop down to DII and have only a moderate amount of success. The difference between low-major Division I schools and high-level Division II schools is diminishing. Some would argue there is no difference. There is no guarantee because he averaged a whopping 6.9 ppg on a terrible Drake team that he would do even decent at Minnesota. Looking at his tape, he looks like a Division II player, WHICH ISN'T AN INSULT. St. Thomas, as you may know, is Division III and does not offer athletic scholarships.

Not every DI player would dominate at the DII level. That's foolish to imply.

Low/Mid-Major players projected in this years NBA draft:

CJ McCollum (Lehigh)
Tony Mitchell (north Texas)
James Ennis (long beach state)
Kelly olynyk (Gonzaga)
Isiah Canaan (Murray St.)
Nate Wolters (South Dakota St)
Robert Covington (Tennessee state)
Mike Muscala (Bucknell)
Ray McCallum (Detroit)

Projected NBA picks from D2

None

Yup. Practically the same.

You can't even compare, with a straight face, a D2 team to Drake who is in a conference with the likes of Wichita State (FF), Creighton (Tournament), Bradley, Illinois State, etc. they don't even belong in even the same breath as any D2 school. I'm guessing a D2 school could make the final four too huh? I mean the leagues are the same!

You don't go from all freshman team in the MVC to D2. Sorry. Especially after only sitting behind upper class men and a projected starter and key player (if not best player) the following the season.

Every time I think you couldn't say anything more ridiculous ...

 

[mcal24]

Low/Mid-Major players projected in this years NBA draft:

CJ McCollum (Lehigh)
Tony Mitchell (north Texas)
James Ennis (long beach state)
Kelly olynyk (Gonzaga)
Isiah Canaan (Murray St.)
Nate Wolters (South Dakota St)
Robert Covington (Tennessee state)
Mike Muscala (Bucknell)
Ray McCallum (Detroit)

Projected NBA picks from D2

None

Yup. Practically the same.

You can't even compare, with a straight face, a D2 team to Drake who is in a conference with the likes of Wichita State (FF), Creighton (Tournament), Bradley, Illinois State, etc. they don't even belong in even the same breath as any D2 school. I'm guessing a D2 school could make the final four too huh? I mean the leagues are the same!

You don't go from all freshman team in the MVC to D2. Sorry. Especially after only sitting behind upper class men and a projected starter and key player (if not best player) the following the season.

Every time I think you couldn't say anything more ridiculous ...

+1

 

[BigGopherFan]

Low/Mid-Major players projected in this years NBA draft:

CJ McCollum (Lehigh)
Tony Mitchell (north Texas)
James Ennis (long beach state)
Kelly olynyk (Gonzaga)
Isiah Canaan (Murray St.)
Nate Wolters (South Dakota St)
Robert Covington (Tennessee state)
Mike Muscala (Bucknell)
Ray McCallum (Detroit)

Projected NBA picks from D2

None

Yup. Practically the same.

You can't even compare, with a straight face, a D2 team to Drake who is in a conference with the likes of Wichita State (FF), Creighton (Tournament), Bradley, Illinois State, etc. they don't even belong in even the same breath as any D2 school. I'm guessing a D2 school could make the final four too huh? I mean the leagues are the same!

You don't go from all freshman team in the MVC to D2. Sorry. Especially after only sitting behind upper class men and a projected starter and key player (if not best player) the following the season.

Every time I think you couldn't say anything more ridiculous ...

The last time Drake played Winona State, they lost. Secondly, yes, players do go from Division I all-freshman to Division II. It doesn't happen all the time but it happens. I'm not comparing mid-majors and DII, I'm comparing low-majors like university of North Dakota, UNC Upstate, Kennesaw State and UN-Omaha. Many of the draft prospects you mentioned are from mid-majors. Division II could not, obviously, compete with mid majors. However, dozens of high major players transfer to Division II every year, even more from mid/low majors. This kid looks like a Division II player, and a good one at that.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I totally agree with you on this. Good points all around.

I agree with a lot of his points too, except his bit about not needing marginal Big 10 caliber players. I agree, it'd be nice if everyone was a star. However, if some of our bench guys were closer to marginal rather than being completely over their head, we'd have had a much better team. A marginal Big 10 player would have been an upgrade to guys like Oto, Mo and Welch.

 

[houstongopher]

Can't compare a D2 team to Drake? Winona State beat Drake and Minnesota. The top D2 teams can compete with the mid majors no problem.

But another point to the poster who said they have 8 scholarships at the d2 level that is incorrect the most allowed is 10 which can be split up as much as the program wants between all of its players. I would say the majority of the d2 schools in the Midwest have 5-7 guys on a full ride and the rest split up over 5 to 7 other guys.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

The fact he is offering only a walk on spot for this year makes me think Pitino has a plan still for those last two scholarships. Otherwise, I'd imagine he'd at least offer a scholarship for this year with a "we'll see" for next year. Interesting. I know Buckles is out there, but maybe he still feels good about Black?

Some of the language used (walk on vs. scholarship) isn't exactly the way we think about it. We all get that scholarships are technically renewed each season. However, we also get that coaches typically don't even consider not renewing those scholarships (unless it's an academic or behavior issue). So the language that is often used is that a "scholarship player" is a person who will be on scholarship until graduation. A "walk on" is someone who is not. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that a walk on player isn't on scholarship for a given season (they never just sit empty).

So hypothetically, if Joey King was willing to consider the scholarship next season and we'll see (probably walk on) after that. . .I could see him being considered a walk on. They do this because they don't want someone later saying. . ."hey, you pulled Joey King's scholarship", when in actuality that had always been the deal. So they just call them walk ons.

My point in this long ramble of semantics, I wouldn't assume that just because King could be coming as a "walk on" that means we still have two locks in recruiting.

My guess is it's a situation where Pitino has been real upfront. He's probably said, "we have a chance for a couple other guys this year, and if we don't get them a scholarship could be available for you for the 13-14 season. After that, we'll see."

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Can't compare a D2 team to Drake? Winona State beat Drake and Minnesota. The top D2 teams can compete with the mid majors no problem.

But another point to the poster who said they have 8 scholarships at the d2 level that is incorrect the most allowed is 10 which can be split up as much as the program wants between all of its players. I would say the majority of the d2 schools in the Midwest have 5-7 guys on a full ride and the rest split up over 5 to 7 other guys.

Yep, occasionally a D2 school will surprise. However, mid-major college basketball is a HUGE upgrade in talent from D2. It's a fact.

 

[howieramone]

Some of the language used (walk on vs. scholarship) isn't exactly the way we think about it. We all get that scholarships are technically renewed each season. However, we also get that coaches typically don't even consider not renewing those scholarships (unless it's an academic or behavior issue). So the language that is often used is that a "scholarship player" is a person who will be on scholarship until graduation. A "walk on" is someone who is not. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that a walk on player isn't on scholarship for a given season (they never just sit empty).

So hypothetically, if Joey King was willing to consider the scholarship next season and we'll see (probably walk on) after that. . .I could see him being considered a walk on. They do this because they don't want someone later saying. . ."hey, you pulled Joey King's scholarship", when in actuality that had always been the deal. So they just call them walk ons.

My point in this long ramble of semantics, I wouldn't assume that just because King could be coming as a "walk on" that means we still have two locks in recruiting.

My guess is it's a situation where Pitino has been real upfront. He's probably said, "we have a chance for a couple other guys this year, and if we don't get them a scholarship could be available for you for the 13-14 season. After that, we'll see."

+1

 

[BigGopherFan]

Low/Mid-Major players projected in this years NBA draft:

CJ McCollum (Lehigh)
Tony Mitchell (north Texas)
James Ennis (long beach state)
Kelly olynyk (Gonzaga)
Isiah Canaan (Murray St.)
Nate Wolters (South Dakota St)
Robert Covington (Tennessee state)
Mike Muscala (Bucknell)
Ray McCallum (Detroit)

Projected NBA picks from D2

None

Yup. Practically the same.

You can't even compare, with a straight face, a D2 team to Drake who is in a conference with the likes of Wichita State (FF), Creighton (Tournament), Bradley, Illinois State, etc. they don't even belong in even the same breath as any D2 school. I'm guessing a D2 school could make the final four too huh? I mean the leagues are the same!

You don't go from all freshman team in the MVC to D2. Sorry. Especially after only sitting behind upper class men and a projected starter and key player (if not best player) the following the season.

Every time I think you couldn't say anything more ridiculous ...

Not every Division I player that transfers to Division II automatically dominates, that's just a plain fact. Look at Anthony Tucker. He was one of the top freshman in the Big 10 a few years back and decided to transfer to Winona State. He started and did pretty well, but he certainly did not dominate. I cannot stress enough how ridiculous it sounds to hear someone post that an all-freshman player from the MVC is too good for DII! Obviously we will never know, but I think King would probably average between 14-17 points and 5-7 rebounds as a soph. at Division II. That's my guess. The fact, though, remains that the majority of Division I transfers (even those from high majors) to Division II programs simply DO NOT dominate. Some do, some don't. King would be a really really good Division II player and a marginal high-major (Minnesota) player.

 

[scher215]

Article from Amelia, kind of throws a wrench in the Ryan James tweets:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/207244361.html

Could Joey King or Josh Davis be forward options for the Gophers?
Posted by: Amelia Rayno under College basketball, Gophers players Updated: May 13, 2013 - 2:44 PM

UPDATE: King's former high school coach, Mark Gerber, said that King has not contacted or been contacted by any schools at this time and that his primary focus right now is finishing up final exams.

It’s no secret that the Gophers are a little short on big men for next season.


...

 

[scher215]

Not every Division I player that transfers to Division II automatically dominates, that's just a plain fact. Look at Anthony Tucker. He was one of the top freshman in the Big 10 a few years back and decided to transfer to Winona State. He started and did pretty well, but he certainly did not dominate.

Tucker didn't "decide" to transfer to Winona State. He was basically kicked out of Iowa because he couldn't control his drinking nor the arrests that followed. Then got into more trouble at Winona. He didn't go there for talent reasons, he went there because he didn't want to sit out a year and kept getting arrested.

I cannot stress enough how ridiculous it sounds to hear someone post that an all-freshman player from the MVC is too good for DII! Obviously we will never know, but I think King would probably average between 14-17 points and 5-7 rebounds as a soph. at Division II. That's my guess. The fact, though, remains that the majority of Division I transfers (even those from high majors) to Division II programs simply DO NOT dominate. Some do, some don't. King would be a really really good Division II player and a marginal high-major (Minnesota) player.

I'm just going to also guess you think a college team could beat an NBA team, because the talent levels are "really close" ?

The best player on a mid-major team as a Sophomore is too good for D2. Any "marginal" (playing > 10 MPG) high-major player is too good for D2. When a talented player, recieving minutes and PT goes from D1 to D2 it usually has more to do with other factors than talent (drinking, grades, etc.) and not because it was simply their best offer. King will be offered by good D1 schools and will go to one of them, he won't go to D2 and have that be his only offer. He was already slated as Drake's best player next year, why on earth would he even consider going D2? What is the advantage for him?

 

[tjgopher]

Not every Division I player that transfers to Division II automatically dominates, that's just a plain fact. Look at Anthony Tucker. He was one of the top freshman in the Big 10 a few years back and decided to transfer to Winona State. He started and did pretty well, but he certainly did not dominate. I cannot stress enough how ridiculous it sounds to hear someone post that an all-freshman player from the MVC is too good for DII! Obviously we will never know, but I think King would probably average between 14-17 points and 5-7 rebounds as a soph. at Division II. That's my guess. The fact, though, remains that the majority of Division I transfers (even those from high majors) to Division II programs simply DO NOT dominate. Some do, some don't. King would be a really really good Division II player and a marginal high-major (Minnesota) player.

Depends on how you define dominate. Anthony Tucker averaged 19-points per game this past season and was twice the league's Player of the Week and was 4th in the NSIC in scoring. Another D-I transfer (Iowa State) in the NSIC was Clayton Vette from Winona State, who was the league's Player of the Year.

 

[BigGopherFan]

Tucker didn't "decide" to transfer to Winona State. He was basically kicked out of Iowa because he couldn't control his drinking nor the arrests that followed. Then got into more trouble at Winona. He didn't go there for talent reasons, he went there because he didn't want to sit out a year and kept getting arrested.



I'm just going to also guess you think a college team could beat an NBA team, because the talent levels are "really close" ?

The best player on a mid-major team as a Sophomore is too good for D2. Any "marginal" (playing > 10 MPG) high-major player is too good for D2. When a talented player, recieving minutes and PT goes from D1 to D2 it usually has more to do with other factors than talent (drinking, grades, etc.) and not because it was simply their best offer. King will be offered by good D1 schools and will go to one of them, he won't go to D2 and have that be his only offer. He was already slated as Drake's best player next year, why on earth would he even consider going D2?

I'm not sure you are understanding what I'm trying to say. Of course a mid-major scholarship is better than Division II and I know Tucker got kicked out. the point is TALENT LEVEL. According to your theory, Tucker should have been too good for Division II and simply dominated and scored at will. That's simply not the case. I think you're getting a little ridiculous with the college team being able to beat an NBA team statement. That's simply not a fair comparison and I obviously don't think that. Back on track: The fact remains that a huge percentage of Division II teams have Division I transfers, and not all of them dominate. Period. Tucker didn't dominate (fact) and King would not dominate (opinion). You could go through just the rosters of Winona State and Minnesota State over the last 6-7 years and see loads of DI transfers that had varying levels of success. Probably 15-20 total players from those two programs alone transferred from Division I. None were "too good."

 

[scher215]

Depends on how you define dominate. Anthony Tucker averaged 19-points per game this past season and was twice the league's Player of the Week and was 4th in the NSIC in scoring. Another D-I transfer (Iowa State) in the NSIC was Clayton Vette from Winona State, who was the league's Player of the Year.

And FWIW, Vette left ISU for "personal reasons" after averaging 1.4 points and 1.6 rebounds. At the time, his father said "basketball is not in the picture".

Once again, not due to no other offers / talent.

 

[BigGopherFan]

Depends on how you define dominate. Anthony Tucker averaged 19-points per game this past season and was twice the league's Player of the Week and was 4th in the NSIC in scoring. Another D-I transfer (Iowa State) in the NSIC was Clayton Vette from Winona State, who was the league's Player of the Year.

Exactly. Those are two guys that came from high-level DI programs and both were named Mr. Basketball in their respective states as seniors in high school (Vette for sure, not positive about Tucker). Caleb Palkert was another Division I transfer from USC-Upstate was a role player for WSU. CJ Erickson, a transfer from Evansville to Winona State who graduated last year, was a "glue guy" who never averaged more than 10 ppg. None of the FOUR (4) Division I transfers on the Minnesota State team from this past season dominated. None. Jarvin Williams from UW-Green Bay -- who averaged 8.3 ppg as a sophomore at Division I -- was the most successful of the bunch, averaging 14 points and 5.5 rebounds.

 

[scher215]

Exactly. Those are two guys that came from high-level DI programs and both were named Mr. Basketball in their respective states as seniors in high school (Vette for sure, not positive about Tucker). Caleb Palkert was another Division I transfer from USC-Upstate was a role player for WSU. CJ Erickson, a transfer from Evansville to Winona State who graduated last year, was a "glue guy" who never averaged more than 10 ppg. None of the FOUR (4) Division I transfers on the Minnesota State team from this past season dominated. None. Jarvin Williams from UW-Green Bay -- who averaged 8.3 ppg as a sophomore at Division I -- was the most successful of the bunch, averaging 14 points and 5.5 rebounds.

Is your only point that it is not possible to predict how good a D1 player would be if they played D2?

Joey King will have D1 offers. Explain to me why he would be better off playing D2?

 

[60's Guy]

Exactly. Those are two guys that came from high-level DI programs and both were named Mr. Basketball in their respective states as seniors in high school (Vette for sure, not positive about Tucker). Caleb Palkert was another Division I transfer from USC-Upstate was a role player for WSU. CJ Erickson, a transfer from Evansville to Winona State who graduated last year, was a "glue guy" who never averaged more than 10 ppg. None of the FOUR (4) Division I transfers on the Minnesota State team from this past season dominated. None. Jarvin Williams from UW-Green Bay -- who averaged 8.3 ppg as a sophomore at Division I -- was the most successful of the bunch, averaging 14 points and 5.5 rebounds.

The point is not about whether any DI guys can or cannot dominate DII basketball. The point is that a MVC
all-freshman team player who averaged 7 points a game could contribute to the Gophers. You suggested he could not. That's the discussion.

Dominating a basketball game as a player is going to require the player and the coach to be in harmony. Those two don't always align to allow someone to dominate. It could be coaching philosophy. It could be other teammates and their strengths. Etc. Talent obviously is a component, no doubt.

 

[scher215]

The point is not about whether any DI guys can or cannot dominate DII basketball. The point is that a MVC
all-freshman team player who averaged 7 points a game could contribute to the Gophers. You suggested he could not. That's the discussion.

Dominating a basketball game as a player is going to require the player and the coach to be in harmony. Those two don't always align to allow someone to dominate. It could be coaching philosophy. It could be other teammates and their strengths. Etc. Talent obviously is a component, no doubt.

I'm not sure, I think there should be a thread about how good of a D2 player Andrew Wiggins would be. Could make for an exciting debate.

 

[tjgopher]

Exactly. Those are two guys that came from high-level DI programs and both were named Mr. Basketball in their respective states as seniors in high school (Vette for sure, not positive about Tucker). Caleb Palkert was another Division I transfer from USC-Upstate was a role player for WSU. CJ Erickson, a transfer from Evansville to Winona State who graduated last year, was a "glue guy" who never averaged more than 10 ppg. None of the FOUR (4) Division I transfers on the Minnesota State team from this past season dominated. None. Jarvin Williams from UW-Green Bay -- who averaged 8.3 ppg as a sophomore at Division I -- was the most successful of the bunch, averaging 14 points and 5.5 rebounds.

Yes, but depending on how you define dominate, I'd suggest it wouldn't be crazy to in fact say Tucker and Vette did dominate the NSIC. Both top five scorers in the league, top 30 scorers in the country, both top five players in the league, both multiple player of the week honors, both averaged over 19-points per game this past season, etc. You basically said it was fact that Tucker didn't dominate, but averaging 19 points per game isn't chopped liver.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

I see your point, and I would agree if we were losing players like Oto and replacing them with slightly better players. The problem is, we aren't replacing people like Oto. He will still be on the roster. We are replacing people like Mbakwe and Williams who were Big Ten caliber players.

 

[leftyslefty]

I see your point, and I would agree if we were losing players like Oto and replacing them with slightly better players. The problem is, we aren't replacing people like Oto. He will still be on the roster. We are replacing people like Mbakwe and Williams who were Big Ten caliber players.

You are implying that Joey King can be compared to Oto......who is now a 23 year old jr, who has shown NOTHING close to consistent, competent collegiate level play. The tape you are comparing him to from Joey was shot when he was a 16 year old junior in high school, as the best player, on one of the top teams in the state. They are not the same player just because they are about the same height and both Caucasian.

 

[BigGopherFan]

Is your only point that it is not possible to predict how good a D1 player would be if they played D2?

Joey King will have D1 offers. Explain to me why he would be better off playing D2?

I think he would be better off playing Division II because of playing time. He's not overly-athletic, and that fits Division II better as well. The biggest difference in DI and DII is pure athleticism. And then size. Skills, like pure shooting, are often the same for Division I and Division II players. Division I players, though, are often taller and more athletic. But again, King would not impact the Gophers in a huge way, in my opinion. I do, however, think he could be a very good Division II player.

 

[leftyslefty]

I think he would be better off playing Division II because of playing time. He's not overly-athletic, and that fits Division II better as well. The biggest difference in DI and DII is pure athleticism. And then size. Skills, like pure shooting, are often the same for Division I and Division II players. Division I players, though, are often taller and more athletic. But again, King would not impact the Gophers in a huge way, in my opinion. I do, however, think he could be a very good Division II player.

You are perfectly entitled to your ridiculous opinion.

 

[howieramone]

You are perfectly entitled to your ridiculous opinion.

+1 Impossible to win an argument with star gazers.

 

[BigGopherFan]

Yes, but depending on how you define dominate, I'd suggest it wouldn't be crazy to in fact say Tucker and Vette did dominate the NSIC. Both top five scorers in the league, top 30 scorers in the country, both top five players in the league, both multiple player of the week honors, both averaged over 19-points per game this past season, etc. You basically said it was fact that Tucker didn't dominate, but averaging 19 points per game isn't chopped liver.

Right. Vette dominated after several years of seasoning and Tucker was a top-tier player as well (at MSU-Moorhead) after having a less than dominant season at Winona State. Either way, most Division I transfers to Division II do not dominate, or even average double-figures in scoring. Many will, but more won't. Again, I'm just confused by the comment that an all-freshman -player in the MVC is too good for Division II, which is simply ridiculous. There are players like King that have had a moderate level of success at Division I and transferred to Division II and haven't dominated.

Look at a guy like P'Allen Stinnett. Out of high school he was a 4 star recruit, signed with Creighton, played with the Jays and become all-MVC by his sophomore season. He eventually transferred to Division II Missouri Western and was the second leading scorer -- ON HIS TEAM! He did well (15 ppg, 3.8 rpg), but he wasn't "too good" for Division II and didn't dominate.

 

[BigGopherFan]

You are perfectly entitled to your ridiculous opinion.

I don't care that you think my opinion is totally ridiculous, but not explaining why you think that is confusing. What about my post do you find ridiculous? I'm sure you are going to say the whole thing, but why?