Twins/Vikings/Wild/Wolves Championship appearance drought tracker

I knew you were talking about tickets sold of Twins vs Wolves/Wild to support your claim of #2, even though it was fairly obvious I wasn't talking about that at all.


I was getting at that the Twins are the only one of the four to even have done anything to put Minnesota on a map in the last three decades ... the sport of baseball itself, overall, is way down in importance to the people of Minnesota. Hockey, football, basketball, and I'd wager others, are (far) more important overall to the families and people of this state.

It should be hockey. That should be our thing. Gophers do their part, but sad that Wild haven't even made it yet.
The tickets were specifically listed because you said "no one cares" about the Twins in the regular season.

Youth & prep baseball/softball has far greater participation numbers than ice hockey in Minnesota. Outside the metro it's far greater. I'm very perplexed you have that impression.
 

Softball is not baseball. Nonsequitor to try to lump it in when no such thing can be done.

Baseball participation declining, probably the only major sport like that.

Season is short. Can never compete with the south and southwest because of that.


It’s a boring game and youth want more excitement.
 

Softball is not baseball. Nonsequitor to try to lump it in when no such thing can be done.

Baseball participation declining, probably the only major sport like that.

Season is short. Can never compete with the south and southwest because of that.


It’s a boring game and youth want more excitement.
Not including (fast pitch) softball would exclude essentially 50% of the potential target fan base (females). It's completely relevant.

The competing with the south has no relevance to the fact that more Minnesota youth play baseball/softball than ice hockey. It's not even close. The majority of those playing Little League don't have competing with California/Texas/Florida on their mind. They just want to beat their neighboring community.

As for the "boring" perception, that's a real issue. I alluded to changes at the MLB level as a necessary game changer in post 597.

I'm not disputing that youth baseball/softball participation is declining. It's still vastly greater than hockey. It doesn't change the overall statement that the Twins are clearly the 2nd most followed pro-franchise in this market.
 
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Correct. In terms of total participation and how much people care about a sport overall, baseball is well after football, hockey, and basketball. Probably volleyball and soccer as well, when you factor in girl's/women's.

People pay attention to the Twins if they make the playoff, and that's great.

No one cares during the regular season. You can't even watch them on TV.
To say no one cares about the Twins regular season is simply not true. They drew nearly two million fans. They derive a far higher % of their revenue from in stadium sources than the Vikings or Wolves. And their TV ratings were traditionally top 10 in mlb and higher than the Wolves or wild. At least until Bally mucked it up.
 

To say no one cares about the Twins regular season is simply not true. They drew nearly two million fans. They derive a far higher % of their revenue from in stadium sources than the Vikings or Wolves. And their TV ratings were traditionally top 10 in mlb and higher than the Wolves or wild. At least until Bally mucked it up.
The Twins (& Vikings) have a 1 to 2 generational head start on both the Wolves & Wild. Neither "newbie" has been to the Championship Round and each has made it to their respective Conference Final just once.

I was in adulthood when the Wolves became a thing. I am unapologetically a fair weather Wolves fan. Though it was a fun run in 2004.

As a kid I did have what I would term equal or nearly the same passion for the North Stars as the teams that played across the same parking lot. While I follow the Wild, my fandom isn't nearly the same.

Just a way of saying, I suspect anyone over the age of 45 the Vikings & Twins likely rate higher than either of their fellow local franchises. By a lot, however that's measured.
 
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I can't ever see a low-budget team in MLB ever making the World Series beating out high-budget teams in that unfair league. Hat's off for what they accomplished this year. Other leagues are fair.
You couldn't see it happening, yet it just did. The Diamondbacks with payroll #21 (4 rungs lower than the Twins at #17) just beat the Phillies #4 to win the National League Pennant. Before that they dispatched the #5 Dodgers.

It happens in the "unfair" league. Go figure.

 

You couldn't see it happening, yet it just did. The Diamondbacks with payroll #21 (4 rungs lower than the Twins at #17) just beat the Phillies #4 to win the National League Pennant. Before that they dispatched the #5 Dodgers.

It happens in the "unfair" league. Go figure.


We've lived in Arizona for 2.5 years and the Suns and now Diamondbacks have made it to the championship round since we moved here. SMH...

And while the Suns have great fans and the city really gets behind them, the energy here for the Diamondbacks is not even on the same stratosphere of what a WS run for the Twins would be in MN.

Go Minnesota Sports!!
 

Amended for correctness: in a wildly unfair league like the MLB, the low-budget teams have far lower probability to make the championship than in parity leagues like the NFL.

Exactly the same overall point being made, which was never disproven by pointing out anomalies in the MLB.
 

Amended for correctness: in a wildly unfair league like the MLB, the low-budget teams have far lower probability to make the championship than in parity leagues like the NFL.

Exactly the same overall point being made, which was never disproven by pointing out anomalies in the MLB.
And yet MLB has proven to have as much if not more parity than other pro leagues. I don't think anyone disputes that a bigger budget is an advantage, but it hasn't really impacted the parity on the field to a significant degree.
 



MLB is anti-parity by definition. You can claim whatever you want about post-season appearance results and concoct whatever stat you want to support that.
 

MLB is anti-parity by definition. You can claim whatever you want about post-season appearance results and concoct whatever stat you want to support that.
I would say it's the other way around. The QB position is easily the most important and most impactful position in both leagues. And it's not even close.

Many of the large contracts in MLB end up being bad. I'm not saying having more money isn't important and an advantage. But the teams that win big in baseball largely do so because they develop within well.
 

MLB is anti-parity by definition. You can claim whatever you want about post-season appearance results and concoct whatever stat you want to support that.
Ok well put it this way, the "anti-parity" structure of MLB has not had a significant impact on the on-field results and entertainment value so I don't really care. Give me the MLB setup over the NFL haves and have nots being determined almost purely by QB play any day of the week.
 

I would say it's the other way around. The QB position is easily the most important and most impactful position in both leagues. And it's not even close.

Many of the large contracts in MLB end up being bad. I'm not saying having more money isn't important and an advantage. But the teams that win big in baseball largely do so because they develop within well.
In my opinion, the advantage of the big payroll teams have is that while it does not guarantee big success they are also far less likely to be horrible, barring huge injuries. Although, the Mets this year did their best to disprove that.

The big spending Yankees have not even been to the WS since 2009, but they have made the Postseason 10 times. Even in their 4 non-playoff years they won 82-85 games.
 



In my opinion, the advantage of the big payroll teams have is that while it does not guarantee big success they are also far less likely to be horrible, barring huge injuries. Although, the Mets this year did their best to disprove that.

The big spending Yankees have not even been to the WS since 2009, but they have made the Postseason 10 times. Even in their 4 non-playoff years they won 82-85 games.
I think it allows them to add to their chore group. And keep them. Larger contracts generally work out more often for players that resign with the organization they developed in.
 

Amended for correctness: in a wildly unfair league like the MLB, the low-budget teams have far lower probability to make the championship than in parity leagues like the NFL.

Exactly the same overall point being made, which was never disproven by pointing out anomalies in the MLB.
Lower probability, sure. But it happens often enough that they are not anomalies. Detroit, Kansas City twice, Cleveland, Tampa Bay and now Arizona all since 2010 have got to the World Series.

It's not rare. Three of those teams are in the Twins Division.

Houston was middle of the pack in payroll with their young stars when they first got to the WS 2017, before they were Free Agent eligible.
 

14 seasons times 2 opportunities (AL NL), 28 opportunities, and 6 went to the ones you highlight. 21%

I admit that is more than you would suspect given how unfair and anti-parity the league is. Point stands. If you choose to spend low on your roster, you have a significantly lower chance.


Parity has only to do with being fair and level on how much each team is allowed to spend in its roster, and fair access to top rookie talent. The latter bit I assume is the same fairness with draft in MLB as NFL.


Nothing else is relevant to the discussion. All NFL teams have exactly fair opportunities to draft franchise QB’s or sign them as free agents if it is within their budget to do so. That some have failed to do so has absolutely nothing to do with parity.

Absolutely the opposite is true in MLB with star players.
 

14 seasons times 2 opportunities (AL NL), 28 opportunities, and 6 went to the ones you highlight. 21%

I admit that is more than you would suspect given how unfair and anti-parity the league is. Point stands. If you choose to spend low on your roster, you have a significantly lower chance.


Parity has only to do with being fair and level on how much each team is allowed to spend in its roster, and fair access to top rookie talent. The latter bit I assume is the same fairness with draft in MLB as NFL.


Nothing else is relevant to the discussion. All NFL teams have exactly fair opportunities to draft franchise QB’s or sign them as free agents if it is within their budget to do so. That some have failed to do so has absolutely nothing to do with parity.

Absolutely the opposite is true in MLB with star players.
You are ill informed on this subject. I only listed the 6 most obvious instances, there are other middle budget teams that have made it (ie Houston 2017). Texas in 2010 made it to the WS in 2010, ranked 27th out of 30. They made it again in 2011. Your extrapolating it to only 21% is folly.

Every MLB team also has the ability to draft domestic star players or sign internationally and then keep under team control for 6 years on their Major League roster (after they have gone through the minors) for modest salaries within their budget, which is also generally when the players are most productive and often the core of their roster.

They can also trade those players before their team control is up to obtain other assets, to restock their roster and offset losing players to those that spend more. They can also get compensatory picks when a player signs with another team, which is an effort for parity.

That's how the Yankees got Aaron Judge to begin with, he was a compensatory pick (lost Nick Swisher as a Free Agent). 27 teams passed on him, some twice.

Ironic. Yet Judge has still yet to play in the Fall Classic, even with all the NY riches.
 

14 seasons times 2 opportunities (AL NL), 28 opportunities, and 6 went to the ones you highlight. 21%

I admit that is more than you would suspect given how unfair and anti-parity the league is. Point stands. If you choose to spend low on your roster, you have a significantly lower chance.


Parity has only to do with being fair and level on how much each team is allowed to spend in its roster, and fair access to top rookie talent. The latter bit I assume is the same fairness with draft in MLB as NFL.


Nothing else is relevant to the discussion. All NFL teams have exactly fair opportunities to draft franchise QB’s or sign them as free agents if it is within their budget to do so. That some have failed to do so has absolutely nothing to do with parity.

Absolutely the opposite is true in MLB with star players.
There's no rule prohibiting the Oakland A's from spending more than the Yankees.
 

There's no rule prohibiting the Oakland A's from spending more than the Yankees.
The A's could have also drafted Aaron Judge (257 HRs career) instead of their #27 pick, Billy McKinney (34 HRs career).
 

The A's could have also drafted Aaron Judge (257 HRs career) instead of their #27 pick, Billy McKinney (34 HRs career).
The funny thing is McKinney played for the Yankees this season.
 


You are ill informed on this subject. I only listed the 6 most obvious instances, there are other middle budget teams that have made it (ie Houston 2017). Texas in 2010 made it to the WS in 2010, ranked 27th out of 30. They made it again in 2011. Your extrapolating it to only 21% is folly.

Every MLB team also has the ability to draft domestic star players or sign internationally and then keep under team control for 6 years on their Major League roster (after they have gone through the minors) for modest salaries within their budget, which is also generally when the players are most productive and often the core of their roster.

They can also trade those players before their team control is up to obtain other assets, to restock their roster and offset losing players to those that spend more. They can also get compensatory picks when a player signs with another team, which is an effort for parity.

That's how the Yankees got Aaron Judge to begin with, he was a compensatory pick (lost Nick Swisher as a Free Agent). 27 teams passed on him, some twice.

Ironic. Yet Judge has still yet to play in the Fall Classic, even with all the NY riches.
Additionally there is a Luxury Tax, which has been a guardrail of sorts. It has proven to be somewhat of a leveler. There is a threshold were it's quite punitive to overspend.

 

In my opinion, the advantage of the big payroll teams have is that while it does not guarantee big success they are also far less likely to be horrible, barring huge injuries. Although, the Mets this year did their best to disprove that.

The big spending Yankees have not even been to the WS since 2009, but they have made the Postseason 10 times. Even in their 4 non-playoff years they won 82-85 games.
Agreed...a higher team payroll adds better depth and more margin for injuries. Having that increased "margin for error" will almost always have those teams vying for at least a Wild Card spot.
 

Parity has only to do with being fair and level on how much each team is allowed to spend in its roster, and fair access to top rookie talent. The latter bit I assume is the same fairness with draft in MLB as NFL.
That's one way to look at it but I think most people think of parity in terms of how many different teams are advancing far and having a realistic chance of winning it all.

Every team has a chance to draft a QB that will end up being a stud but not every team can have a stud QB. If you fail at having at least one of the good QBs, winning big will be difficult. In baseball, there isn't a single position like that.
 

With the Arizona Diamondbacks playing the Texas Rangers it's the first time that 2 teams representing "States" as opposed to Cities will square off in the World Series, I think (just did a quick Wiki search).

It has happened in the Stanley Cup with Colorado facing off with both Florida and New Jersey.

I don't know how to deal with Golden St (NBA), New England (NFL) and Carolina (NHL & NFL). The latter two played each other, but otherwise against "Cities".

If anyone wants to check my research, have at it.
 









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