This isn't going as planned

[Fan of Ray Christensen]

That is reality. People are moving to the suburbs, in droves, for the same reason. Yet we somehow think that parents are not coaching their HS kids to look at suburban/rural campuses instead of a campus at the edge of downtown Mpls.?

Given that in 2020 alone, the population of downtown Mpls grew by 3.5%, your claim about people leaving "in droves" is incorrect:

Downtown Minneapolis Population Grew 3.5% in 2020 | Twin Cities Business

Population in downtown Minneapolis hit 53,093 last year, up 3.5% from 2019. The council’s long-term goal has been to hit 70,000 by 2025.

tcbmag.com

Who or what is the source for the "reality" to the contrary?

 

[bga1]

Given that in 2020 alone, the population of downtown Mpls grew by 3.5%, your claim about people leaving "in droves" is incorrect:

Downtown Minneapolis Population Grew 3.5% in 2020 | Twin Cities Business

Population in downtown Minneapolis hit 53,093 last year, up 3.5% from 2019. The council’s long-term goal has been to hit 70,000 by 2025.

tcbmag.com

Who or what is the source for the "reality" to the contrary?

You make a good point statistically- perhaps more apartments were already being built and are getting occupied. I would say this: there are a lot of people moving out and there are others that are willing to move back in, mostly the woke crowd. So that is true. I don't think it is families with kids or potential basketball recruits that are thinking like that. When I am talking the city, I am not just talking downtown Minneapolis but also the uptown area, etc. I just down think it is possible though, to spin it that the situation for living downtown or near it is anywhere near as good as it used to be. Carjackings up by 5X, defund the police and the police themselves sending out communications that make one feel like they won't be able to help much. If you think it is safe downtown, well then we are just going to agree to disagree.

 

[BarnBurner]

obviously

I mean there is no other reason Coyle would hire Ben Johnson

List the reasons.

 

[bga1]

Each situation is different. ISU has a fan base that supports their team through thick or thin. What else are they going to do? They threw their support behind the coach early on and said lets row this boat together. Our fan base is fickle, pessimistic, and has no patience. We have approached mutiny in a few short months. One has to wonder whether their response has helped their cause while our response has hindered ours. I am embarrassed by our fans' reaction to the hire of Ben Johnson.

Ben is 'blatantly dumping next year down the drain?' Is that part of his plan?!

Our fan base has had about 40 years of patience with very little to show for it besides a final four run about 25 years ago that got us a near death penalty.

As to your last statement I think Ben has made it so obvious that he is starting totally over and essentially burning it down to build for the long term that the best players in the biggest transfer portal ever decided to go somewhere where they could win- including our own guys. Thus- in the name of a total rebuild- next year is down the drain. If Ben can win with this squad I will contribute to a statue for him. .500 in the Big Ten would be national coach of the year material.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I don't want to go dig back to summer 2017 posts but it was definitely the discussion.

No, it really wasn't.

It was if a 9 win season the year before is no big deal, would it be considered a disappointment if we didn't win 9 games the following year? When could we expect to win 9 games again.

It certainly wasn't - - if PJ doesn't win 9 games in season 1, he was a bad hire. I don't think I've ever seen a coach more universally considered to be a good hire than PJ.

 

[bga1]

obviously

I mean there is no other reason Coyle would hire Ben Johnson

In terms of resumes- that is correct. There is no way Ben would have been thought to be a top prospect for a Big Ten job at this point. The only reason beyond the politically correct angle is that he will be a winner with local recruits and he is well connected locally. But so far....that has not sold. It's early and I believe in his character and his ability to communicate. I love the Thorson pick.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

With all due respect, I get the sense that this is what is happening:

Poster X did not like the Johnson hire.
Poster X comes on board and criticizes lack of progress.
this is being done so that, IF the program has a bad year,
Poster X can shout to the heavens "I TOLD YOU SO."

hey, I can't see the future. For all I know, the Gophers could go 0-30 or whatever next year.
Ben Johnson could turn out to be the worst coach in the history of MN Basketball, or the worst coach in the history of D1 sports.

I hope it doesn't get that bad. I hope that Johnson has a game plan and things will eventually work out in a positive direction.

I am going to wait and see what happens.

I can only go with my gut, and my gut tells me that Ben Johnson is a decent guy who will try his best to do a good job for the U of MN and the State of MN. He is the kind of guy I can root for, and will root for.

 

[Stan]

Read my posts again... you are within your rights to bitch and moan. I am not policing anything. I hate inaction. If you are truly as angry and frustrated as you say you are, I would love to see you show the initiative to pull together a signature drive or start a group to show the administration that the fan base cares, has had enough, and is willing to run through walls to get this program back on the map.

Why waste your time bleating with the rest of the sheep on a message board? Get active! Use your voice to go find the results that you are seeking. Every team has a fan base. Not every team has a fan base that is so united in its hate for its new coach that they rally the administration to get him fired before he coaches a game. Dare to dream big!

Wow. Talk about hyperbole. Have a good day and Ski-U-Mah.

 

[GoodasGold]

With all due respect, I get the sense that this is what is happening:

Poster X did not like the Johnson hire.
Poster X comes on board and criticizes lack of progress.
this is being done so that, IF the program has a bad year,
Poster X can shout to the heavens "I TOLD YOU SO."

hey, I can't see the future. For all I know, the Gophers could go 0-30 or whatever next year.
Ben Johnson could turn out to be the worst coach in the history of MN Basketball, or the worst coach in the history of D1 sports.

I hope it doesn't get that bad. I hope that Johnson has a game plan and things will eventually work out in a positive direction.

I am going to wait and see what happens.

I can only go with my gut, and my gut tells me that Ben Johnson is a decent guy who will try his best to do a good job for the U of MN and the State of MN. He is the kind of guy I can root for, and will root for.

Ben Johnson is a decent guy who is quiet and unassuming. He is also gritty.

 

[salzie]

List the reasons.

I believe hire was made due to Ben Johnson's connection to the U of M, his track record as an assistant coach, and his connection to local recruiting.

But I'm not going to speak for Mark Coyle

 

[howeda7]

Hard to argue with any of this. Hiring Ben over Craig Smith and not even making an attempt for Shaka are both harder to justify by the day.

 

[cjbfbp]

I do like the stats these guys bring, and I have my fingers tightly crossed, but there's the obvious question about whether they can take their games up to this level.

Agreed, but I was only comparing them to Pitino's worst team. I think the guards on this team could take a collective hit to their shooting averages due to the higher level competition and still outperform the guards on Pitino's worst team. The front court at this point is a different matter. Tough to point out any particular reason for optimism there.

 

[salzie]

In terms of resumes- that is correct. There is no way Ben would have been thought to be a top prospect for a Big Ten job at this point. The only reason beyond the politically correct angle is that he will be a winner with local recruits and he is well connected locally. But so far....that has not sold. It's early and I believe in his character and his ability to communicate. I love the Thorson pick.

There are plenty of non white coaches Coyle could've selected with more established resumes, he didn't go that route, he went after Ben Johnson

He's our coach. Might as well let this play out

 

[howeda7]

As who planned? A group of message board posters that expect the U to bring back everyone in the portal that have played on a court in Minnesota?

Of course Ben has not gotten every player he had hoped to get, but the ones he has do fit his culture and will develop a foundation for his style. He is developing good lines of communication with top local and national players. He has a very good coaching staff.

It is very shortsighted and naive to declare his plan has already failed.

It hasn't failed. But 4 months in, we have zero signs it's going to succeed. Zero.

 

[UST82Gopher]

As to your last statement I think Ben has made it so obvious that he is starting totally over and essentially burning it down to build for the long term that the best players in the biggest transfer portal ever decided to go somewhere where they could win- including our own guys.

I completely believe this. Plus I hate the fact that Coyle allowed Ben to do it rather than a more moderate approach like the Iowa St coach took.

A disastrous 2021-22 season - which is what I think is expected on paper - is not going to instill any confidence in the better recruits. I think that is going to force Ben to accept 2nd or 3rd tier recruits in 21-22 and 22-23 seriously lengthening the rebuilding process.

 

[howeda7]

Yeah some of the same posters did the same thing to Fleck and declared if he didn't win 9 games in the first year he was a bad hire.

The bar's been lowered such that if Ben wins 9 games in the first year, we'll be pretty happy.

 

[howeda7]

Read my post. Did I talk about James, Gaard, or Doogie? I wasn't talking about the media. I was talking about the majority of our fans who have accepted that Ben Johnson is our coach and are willing to see what happens in a game, in a full recruiting cycle, or in a full season before calling him a failure.

I have said this countless times... if you people aren't willing to band together to organize some sort of initiative to let the administration know of your feelings on this hire with the hopes of making a change then shut your traps and move on. All of the senseless bleating on here is doing NOTHING to solve the problem. It is an utter waste of your energy and distracting from those who just want to get recruiting insights.

Quit beating a dead horse and come back in a year when we have something to talk about. If this doesn't work for you, maybe you can take the opportunity to throw your support behind another up and coming team in UST.

There are all of 10 threads on this board active in the last 24 hours. You're not being "distracted" from any recruiting news.

 

[Stan]

There are all of 10 threads on this board active in the last 24 hours. You're not being "distracted" from any recruiting news.

This.

 

[hungan1]

There were several notable voices in the Gopher fan community that suggested that those of us that were shocked by the Ben Johnson hire didn't get "it". These voices suggested that Ben would clean up with in-state recruiting and make a dent nationally as well. It was strongly hinted publicly (and stated more directly privately) that guys would be coming home that would excite the fan base and that at least one intriguing guard from Ben's time at Xavier would be coming as well.

An assistant coaching staff full of established names was coming too (hey at least they got Thorson right!).

When Gabe Kalscheur committed to ISU despite his former high school coach being on the Gopher staff and his lead recruiter becoming the head coach, I was willing to buy from these same voices that Gabe needed a change of scenery and was leaving "no matter what".

When Eli King committed to ISU becoming the first Minnesota kid with a Gopher offer to EVER commit to Iowa State (that's right not Hoiberg, not Floyd, but Otz taking over a 2-23 team or whaterver), I was willing to buy that King wasn't one of the top 5 in-state targets of Ben Johnson's and that Otz's prior relationship with his brother was big.

Then Heide commits to Purdue. The line from these same voices (some of whom liked our chances with him just a week or so prior as he was one of "the five") suggested that it was unrealistic to sign a kid whose parents were alumni of another school (imagine expecting the Gophers to land kids of alums that live out of state like it was automatic...).

Now before and after these specific recruitments, we saw a number of Minnesota kids choose to stay where they were or go elsewhere despite having previous relationships with Ben and very clear access to starting roles and plenty of minutes here. The Xavier player (or players) never happened.

Someone named Charlie Daniels was signed to a scholarship (14.2 minutes, 4.3 pts and 3.1 rebounds over 2 years for a low major Stephen F. Austin team) while Brandon Johnson transfers to....DePaul. We're now in to July and the best option at either the 4 or the 5 position is probably Jamison Battle who is more of a 3/4.

The Dawson Garcia news lead me to post because he was heavily hinted/rumored to be a Gopher if he didn't stay in the draft from the voices defending a Ben Johnson hire (going back to April). Garcia would have been HUGE for Ben Johnson. He could offer him the featured role/most shots in the offense (something he's unlikely to get at Texas/UNC/Arizona) and Johnson would have a shot at putting a Minnesota kid in to the pros in his first year as a head coach...giving him something to sell. Not only will Garcia not be coming to Minnesota, it was never even close...it was all BS...which makes you wonder if you should believe some of the same voices who've made excuses for the other misses.

Ben clearly went with a strategy of bringing in guys with one year to play (Garcia would essentially be this too as he's clearly eyeing the draft) so he could sell minutes/playing time to the 2022 class. Contrast this to Otz at Iowa State who got a top ~50 ish PG to re-commit to Iowa State in the 2021 class. Then he got the top PG in Iowa (Lipsey from Ames) to commit to him for the 2022 class, then he gets Gabe who has two years left at SG...and still gets Eli King to come in the 2022 class as a SG. He gets a nice piece from Penn State in Brockington, a former top 50-75 recruit from Kansas in Tristan Enaruna, and keeps returning Freshman (due to pandemic) former top recruit Xavier Foster in the fold.

How about Shaka at Marquette? Loses Dawson Garcia, but picks up B1G Defensive player of the year Darryl Morsell, brings/keeps 5 2021 Freshman in the fold ranked 89, 106, 115, 158, and 197 and brought in a Freshman transfer from Clemson that was 108 in 2020. I am not saying either of these are spectacular starts to a tenure but they both far exceed what we've seen (on paper) from Ben Johnson to date...and recruiting was supposed to be the sure thing.

This 2022 class is huge and just getting the 2nd tier guys in Minnesota isn't going to cut it...especially with so many eggs in that basket given how the roster was put together for the '21-22 season. This roster could have been constructed in any way Ben Johnson saw fit. He had all the playing time and shots in the world to offer guys and he went the route he did (I acutally like some of these guys and think they upgraded spots say 4--7 on the roster...but those guys are going to need to be 1-4).

He strategically put together a roster in a way where there were clear paths to start in '22 for all his top high school targets which I don't think is necessary for a good recruiter (see the Otz example above), but makes it imperative that he land said targets. He hired a staff where only one assistant has recruited at the high major level and that was Thorson some 30 years ago. Ben himself will be the youngest coach in the B1G, no track record of success as an assistant, and the only coach with zero head coaching experience. Recruiting and roster building was supposed be the given here and it hasn't been to date. As long as he brings in a very good '22 class this Spring/Summer season won't matter, but an underwhelming class signing in November followed by what most see as a likely ugly season ending in March and that becomes a very deep hole to dig out of.

That just about covered the whole nine-course meal. May I suggest that you break it up into more paragraphs for better read?

There are many reasons for trepidation for both former Gopher players, recruits, and fans alike. This is a huge gamble that Gabel and Coyle are taking in the pressure-laden moment to hire a coach of color. Other than lack of experience, there is a lot to like about Ben Johnson. I would have gone with a couple of other names attached to Gopher Basketball with successful coaching experience. OTH, success elsewhere does not guarantee success here.

Nobody wants to be a guinea pig for the onset of a new coach with zero head coaching experience. Had Liam Robbins decided to stay, I think more former players would have stuck around. These guys have NBA aspirations.

However, there are a few Big Ten and other P5 programs that have hired new coaches with zero college-level head coaching experience and who have become quite successful. We hope this is the case with this hire.

The ball is clearly in BJ's first season. Let's give him a chance. We will see how he progresses. Realistically, it will take him longer than Lindsay Whalen with WBB to turn Gopher MBB around. But, you never know. We may have a pleasant surprise. That is my two cents.

 

[Johnnyboy18]

The bar's been lowered such that if Ben wins 9 games in the first year, we'll be pretty happy.

We finished 13th in the Big Ten how high should the bar be?

 

[alchemy2u]

Yes, that is literally what I am saying. Read the original post. He said this isn't going as planned. You said "It is very shortsighted and naive to declare his plan has already failed." Literally no one said "his plan has already failed" except you. Read the thread title, read the OP, it said it's not going as planned and no where except YOUR post does it say "already failed." Stop trying to advance a narrative to then use it to create hyperbole. You're watching too much cable news.

You seem to be the one who likes to create a hyperbole. The whole premise of the thread is that Ben’s plan is not working! I am simply stating that it is the ridiculous assumptions and expectations that are not being fulfilled, but Ben is still on HIS plan. The description of ”isn’t going as planned” clearly means the outcome has failed to go as planned.

And by the way, I do not watch cable “news” or subscribe to alternative truths.

 

[alchemy2u]

Given that in 2020 alone, the population of downtown Mpls grew by 3.5%, your claim about people leaving "in droves" is incorrect:

Downtown Minneapolis Population Grew 3.5% in 2020 | Twin Cities Business

Population in downtown Minneapolis hit 53,093 last year, up 3.5% from 2019. The council’s long-term goal has been to hit 70,000 by 2025.

tcbmag.com

Who or what is the source for the "reality" to the contrary?

Trolls do not let facts stand in the way of making their point.

 

[Gopherfan84]

I completely believe this. Plus I hate the fact that Coyle allowed Ben to do it rather than a more moderate approach like the Iowa St coach took.

A disastrous 2021-22 season - which is what I think is expected on paper - is not going to instill any confidence in the better recruits. I think that is going to force Ben to accept 2nd or 3rd tier recruits in 21-22 and 22-23 seriously lengthening the rebuilding process.

There is a real possibility that Iowa State still doesn’t win a ton of games. There is also plenty of time to beat their 2022 recruiting class. We gotta slow down the brakes a bit here before we call Ben a failure or Iowa State a success.

TJ won games at a place left real good by Scott Nagy and then floundered and got out coached in the MWC. Lets see how he competed against Beard, Self, and Scott Drew. He’s a great recruiter, but he not great in game from what I’ve watched and I’ve been pretty unimpressed by his offensive actions and defensive concepts. He will most likely be very reliant on Kyle Green (his lead assistant who is very good), but still not a guarantee.

Ben’s job here will be tough and he likely won’t succeed (Few can, it’s not a knock on Ben, just a likely statistic by looking at our program history), but he’s at least attempting to do it without shortcuts. If our 2022 class is empty or bad come November, I’ll be joining in the concern, but I still think we have two 2022 commits in the next month plus add one more big for next year.

 

[BarnBurner]

I believe hire was made due to Ben Johnson's connection to the U of M, his track record as an assistant coach, and his connection to local recruiting.

But I'm not going to speak for Mark Coyle

Very weak reasons to hire for a big 10 job. Thus far, major disappointment. On all fronts.

 

[alchemy2u]

I don't think there is really anyone that wants him to fail. I think the hire was really bad, but I still have tickets, and I still really, really want him to succeed.

No one is on the ledge. That seems to be the thing a few of you here really believe. This fan base is incredibly 'nice' compared to bigger and better programs. Those fan bases would have lost their minds over a hire like this. Just because a few people here are being negative doesn't mean the majority of the fan base is ready to jump.

I suspect there are many that want Ben to fail as quickly as possible so the U can hire another coach…. They have already made up their mind and think the season results are predetermined.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

There are plenty of non white coaches Coyle could've selected with more established resumes, he didn't go that route, he went after Ben Johnson

He's our coach. Might as well let this play out

You are arguing against an argument that no one is making.

The argument that people saying it was at least partially political are making is that race played a roll. It was the local connections and race. I simply do not believe it had anything to do with his track record as an assistant. I don't think we would have ever even considered another A10 assistant coach.

Race playing a factor shouldn't be this dirty little secret. We are constantly told that diversity hiring is important because diversity is good, so why would be an insult to say that something good (diversity) played a role in a hiring? It just doesn't make sense. Also - if race played a role in his hiring and you don't agree with that kind of thing, it's not Ben's fault. The guy has been around basketball and was offered a dream job at his alma mater, any issue anyone has with a diversity hiring is not an issue with Ben.

So for me, and I believe a lot of other people on here, it REALLY comes down to the connection with local recruits. Coyle stressed it during his press conference. The pundits brought it up constantly. You also (I believe correctly) brought it up as one of the main reasons he was hired.

When Eli King, Gabe, Dawson Garcia, most of the current team, Heide, etc. all turn down the U, people are going to notice. It's the tangible thing we were told he had that the 30-40 more qualified (on paper) coaches didn't have. Ben will be under a microscope when it comes to local recruiting and it's because of his lack of resume.

 

[alchemy2u]

I'm willing to band together. I have season tickets for both sports. Does that count? I travel to road games, does that count? I also express my frustration, is that allowed? Love the fan police. Nothing better.

It is not fan police, it is just getting tired of those gripping about stuff they assume is taking place, before we have even played a game.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Given that in 2020 alone, the population of downtown Mpls grew by 3.5%, your claim about people leaving "in droves" is incorrect:

Downtown Minneapolis Population Grew 3.5% in 2020 | Twin Cities Business

Population in downtown Minneapolis hit 53,093 last year, up 3.5% from 2019. The council’s long-term goal has been to hit 70,000 by 2025.

tcbmag.com

Who or what is the source for the "reality" to the contrary?

Politics aside I believe people will be leaving cities. I think it has more to do with the acceptance of working from home brought on by the pandemic. I loved downtown for a few years and it was about 50% due to wanting to wake up and walk into work. When that luxury is eliminated, you just get more for your $ further out.

That said, there does seem to be about of a population swap happening. Many of the higher end apartments in the North Loop have excessive vacancies and I know that's even true here in Austin. It's in the middle of a major population boom, but the downtown condos are actually going for relatively cheap.

Completely putting politics aside, there will be a demographic/population shift in cities. It might balance out completely, but my money is on more and more businesses leaving downtown centers which will plummet the high end rent/condo market.

 

[Some guy]

I'm sure I'm not the smartest poster on this forum. I certainly know less about Minnesota athletics than most here, but what I do have is experience (I'm old) and a more objective view than most (my primary allegiance is to a different UM).

I've seen fanbases tear into each other and a new coach before. It ain't pretty nor is it productive. Setting up expectations of winning x number of games or signing x number of top local prospects in the first year or two is counter productive. Giving great effort, working well together as a team, representing UM well on the court and off, showing that the team is well coahed--these should be the early goals. You should be willing to give Johnson 2-3 years to show show what he can do in recruiting and 4-5 years to start finishing in the top half of the big ten, then improve beyond that. Just my 2 cents. Now get off my lawn and stop shooting off fireworks after 10 pm when decent folk are trying to sleep!

If he is going to wait 4-5 years to finish top half the big ten he isn’t going to get year 4.

 

[bga1]

There are plenty of non white coaches Coyle could've selected with more established resumes, he didn't go that route, he went after Ben Johnson

He's our coach. Might as well let this play out

I have my season tickets and I will be at the games, probably all of them. I have both hope and concern. The start has not been good at all. The ending may well be great. I sure hope so.