This isn't going as planned

GopherPoke

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It's clear that Mark, the snake, Coyle is working to eliminate men's basketball from the budget. With the age of student athletes making money off sponsorship it's clear that UMN cannot compete and cannot succeed. The Regents should begin the demolition of Williams Arena as well as Huntington Bank Stadium. They will then replace these sites with a Black Lives Matter Art Park that will attract millions to the area and fill up the coffers as UMN becomes the reigning champion in protest art competitions. Minnesota will reign supreme as the Comrade Center of North America and will switch its colors from Maroon to communist Red.
Go Gophers!
Jesus! If only bs like this could stay in the off-topic sewage pit. Dragging brainless righty-lefty shit over here subjects all of us to the hatred that some love spewing daily.
 

BarnBurner

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As who planned? A group of message board posters that expect the U to bring back everyone in the portal that have played on a court in Minnesota?

Of course Ben has not gotten every player he had hoped to get, but the ones he has do fit his culture and will develop a foundation for his style. He is developing good lines of communication with top local and national players. He has a very good coaching staff.

It is very shortsighted and naive to declare his plan has already failed.
Very good coaching staff? Based on what?

The excuses continue......
 

alchemy2u

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I just re-read OP, where did anyone say the plan already failed? Or are you just using hyperbole to push goal posts?
Did you read the title of the thread?
 

alchemy2u

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I'm sure I'm not the smartest poster on this forum. I certainly know less about Minnesota athletics than most here, but what I do have is experience (I'm old) and a more objective view than most (my primary allegiance is to a different UM).

I've seen fanbases tear into each other and a new coach before. It ain't pretty nor is it productive. Setting up expectations of winning x number of games or signing x number of top local prospects in the first year or two is counter productive. Giving great effort, working well together as a team, representing UM well on the court and off, showing that the team is well coahed--these should be the early goals. You should be willing to give Johnson 2-3 years to show show what he can do in recruiting and 4-5 years to start finishing in the top half of the big ten, then improve beyond that. Just my 2 cents. Now get off my lawn and stop shooting off fireworks after 10 pm when decent folk are trying to sleep!
Good post. Too many people are placing imaginary expectations and goals that are not in line with the real goals of the program. Ben is starting out by building a team in his image of high BB IQ, hard working, good shooting, hungry players. He will improve the talent as he goes. It is not an overnight experiment, it is a long haul. And yes he has a long leash, you do not hire a new inexperienced coach without committing to give him enough time to do it his way.

We would all like to win the B1G next year, but it will take time. Give him a chance. HE HAS PLAYED A GAME YET!!!!!!!
 




Bad Gopher

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I have doubts about that because of this team's guards. This is a very mature guard group and, except for Sutherlin, they have demonstrated that they are decent to good shooters albeit at lower levels of competition.

Pitino's guards on the 2015-16 team included 3 freshman, 1 soph, and a senior who was kicked off the team. Not a single one of them had a true shooting percentage over .500 that year:

Mason: .493
Morris: .476
McBrayer: .441
Dorsey: .453
Gilbert: .365

Here are the career D1 true shooting percentages of this team's guards:

Willis: .540
Stephens: .544
Loewe: .569
Sutherlin at .467 in his one season at New Hampshire was well below the others but he racked up fairly impressive non-shooting stats while there.

I don't know Thiam's True Shooting Percentage as a junior college freshman but he shot 56.1% overall and 48.5% on 3s so the calculated number would be pretty high. His shooting also improved through his freshman year. In his last 10 games, he averaged 18.5 points a game coming off the bench.

If the offense gets these guys open shots, I think they can knock them down better than the guards on Pitino's worst team.

The front court recruiting has been underwhelming to say the least but I believe we'll still get at least one more there. If so, I believe they can be at least adequate.
I do like the stats these guys bring, and I have my fingers tightly crossed, but there's the obvious question about whether they can take their games up to this level. I'll show up to the games hoping for the best, of course. It's not like I'm rooting against the program or the new coach, but I agree with the OP that this isn't what I'd hoped to see. My litmus test was Eli King: if we lost him to an Iowa school, that would be a bad sign, and we did, and it feels like it was.
 

ecoperson

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There were several notable voices in the Gopher fan community that suggested that those of us that were shocked by the Ben Johnson hire didn't get "it". These voices suggested that Ben would clean up with in-state recruiting and make a dent nationally as well. It was strongly hinted publicly (and stated more directly privately) that guys would be coming home that would excite the fan base and that at least one intriguing guard from Ben's time at Xavier would be coming as well. An assistant coaching staff full of established names was coming too (hey at least they got Thorson right!).

When Gabe Kalscheur committed to ISU despite his former high school coach being on the Gopher staff and his lead recruiter becoming the head coach, I was willing to buy from these same voices that Gabe needed a change of scenery and was leaving "no matter what". When Eli King committed to ISU becoming the first Minnesota kid with a Gopher offer to EVER commit to Iowa State (that's right not Hoiberg, not Floyd, but Otz taking over a 2-23 team or whaterver), I was willing to buy that King wasn't one of the top 5 in-state targets of Ben Johnson's and that Otz's prior relationship with his brother was big. Then Heide commits to Purdue. The line from these same voices (some of whom liked our chances with him just a week or so prior as he was one of "the five") suggested that it was unrealistic to sign a kid whose parents were alumni of another school (imagine expecting the Gophers to land kids of alums that live out of state like it was automatic...). Now before and after these specific recruitments, we saw a number of Minnesota kids choose to stay where they were or go elsewhere despite having previous relationships with Ben and very clear access to starting roles and plenty of minutes here. The Xavier player (or players) never happened. Someone named Charlie Daniels was signed to a scholarship (14.2 minutes, 4.3 pts and 3.1 rebounds over 2 years for a low major Stephen F. Austin team) while Brandon Johnson transfers to....DePaul. We're now in to July and the best option at either the 4 or the 5 position is probably Jamison Battle who is more of a 3/4. The Dawson Garcia news lead me to post because he was heavily hinted/rumored to be a Gopher if he didn't stay in the draft from the voices defending a Ben Johnson hire (going back to April). Garcia would have been HUGE for Ben Johnson. He could offer him the featured role/most shots in the offense (something he's unlikely to get at Texas/UNC/Arizona) and Johnson would have a shot at putting a Minnesota kid in to the pros in his first year as a head coach...giving him something to sell. Not only will Garcia not be coming to Minnesota, it was never even close...it was all BS...which makes you wonder if you should believe some of the same voices who've made excuses for the other misses.

Ben clearly went with a strategy of bringing in guys with one year to play (Garcia would essentially be this too as he's clearly eyeing the draft) so he could sell minutes/playing time to the 2022 class. Contrast this to Otz at Iowa State who got a top ~50 ish PG to re-commit to Iowa State in the 2021 class. Then he got the top PG in Iowa (Lipsey from Ames) to commit to him for the 2022 class, then he gets Gabe who has two years left at SG...and still gets Eli King to come in the 2022 class as a SG. He gets a nice piece from Penn State in Brockington, a former top 50-75 recruit from Kansas in Tristan Enaruna, and keeps returning Freshman (due to pandemic) former top recruit Xavier Foster in the fold. How about Shaka at Marquette? Loses Dawson Garcia, but picks up B1G Defensive player of the year Darryl Morsell, brings/keeps 5 2021 Freshman in the fold ranked 89, 106, 115, 158, and 197 and brought in a Freshman transfer from Clemson that was 108 in 2020. I am not saying either of these are spectacular starts to a tenure but they both far exceed what we've seen (on paper) from Ben Johnson to date...and recruiting was supposed to be the sure thing.

This 2022 class is huge and just getting the 2nd tier guys in Minnesota isn't going to cut it...especially with so many eggs in that basket given how the roster was put together for the '21-22 season. This roster could have been constructed in any way Ben Johnson saw fit. He had all the playing time and shots in the world to offer guys and he went the route he did (I acutally like some of these guys and think they upgraded spots say 4--7 on the roster...but those guys are going to need to be 1-4). He strategically put together a roster in a way where there were clear paths to start in '22 for all his top high school targets which I don't think is necessary for a good recruiter (see the Otz example above), but makes it imperative that he land said targets. He hired a staff where only one assistant has recruited at the high major level and that was Thorson some 30 years ago. Ben himself will be the youngest coach in the B1G, no track record of success as an assistant, and the only coach with zero head coaching experience. Recruiting and roster building was supposed be the given here and it hasn't been to date. As long as he brings in a very good '22 class this Spring/Summer season won't matter, but an underwhelming class signing in November followed by what most see as a likely ugly season ending in March and that becomes a very deep hole to dig out of.
EG- While I appreciate your well thought out post, I have to disagree with you. The vast majority of 'supporters' did not expect Ben to come in and start cleaning up on the recruiting front. From day one of this hire, most knew that this was going to be a hire that required patience as Ben built relationships with the recruits. Anyone who said otherwise is delusional. This is a HUGE gamble predicated on the hope that Ben can build something from scratch. Most have come to grips that this was going to be a process that might take years to bear fruit. I am squarely in the let's see what happens camp. The hire has been made... we have no other choice.
 

bga1

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If you don't think other programs are using the Minneapolis crime/racial upheaval as a negative recruiting angle; you're living in a dream world. You want your kid in Ames or Minneapolis?
BJ is dealing with this every day.
That is reality. People are moving to the suburbs, in droves, for the same reason. Yet we somehow think that parents are not coaching their HS kids to look at suburban/rural campuses instead of a campus at the edge of downtown Mpls.?
 



tikited

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There are also members of board that hated hire from day one and are jumping on Ben already. They believe the hire of Ben was 100% political and want him to fail

we wont' know if Ben is a failure this summer, this fall, or even next spring. Ben, like any coach will need time.

I am hoping for good news soon to get some of you off the ledge, but cripes
I don't think there is really anyone that wants him to fail. I think the hire was really bad, but I still have tickets, and I still really, really want him to succeed.

No one is on the ledge. That seems to be the thing a few of you here really believe. This fan base is incredibly 'nice' compared to bigger and better programs. Those fan bases would have lost their minds over a hire like this. Just because a few people here are being negative doesn't mean the majority of the fan base is ready to jump.
 


salzie

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I don't think there is really anyone that wants him to fail. I think the hire was really bad, but I still have tickets, and I still really, really want him to succeed.

No one is on the ledge. That seems to be the thing a few of you here really believe. This fan base is incredibly 'nice' compared to bigger and better programs. Those fan bases would have lost their minds over a hire like this. Just because a few people here are being negative doesn't mean the majority of the fan base is ready to jump.

I would like to enter the first post of thread as Exhibit A
 

salzie

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That is reality. People are moving to the suburbs, in droves, for the same reason. Yet we somehow think that parents are not coaching their HS kids to look at suburban/rural campuses instead of a campus at the edge of downtown Mpls.?
I'm sure population will be few hundred any day now and housing prices will craters in Mpls
 




bga1

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I'm sure I'm not the smartest poster on this forum. I certainly know less about Minnesota athletics than most here, but what I do have is experience (I'm old) and a more objective view than most (my primary allegiance is to a different UM).

I've seen fanbases tear into each other and a new coach before. It ain't pretty nor is it productive. Setting up expectations of winning x number of games or signing x number of top local prospects in the first year or two is counter productive. Giving great effort, working well together as a team, representing UM well on the court and off, showing that the team is well coahed--these should be the early goals. You should be willing to give Johnson 2-3 years to show show what he can do in recruiting and 4-5 years to start finishing in the top half of the big ten, then improve beyond that. Just my 2 cents. Now get off my lawn and stop shooting off fireworks after 10 pm when decent folk are trying to sleep!
I think that the OP is stating correctly that we see a new coach building a program at Iowa State and that coach is attempting to win sooner and looking like he is seeing success in recruiting towards that goal. One could see ISU improving this next year and being on a faster track to success. Is the ISU guy taking chances on low character guys? I don't know, it doesn't seem like it as he has gotten a few guys that I assume Ben would have liked.

The concern is that Ben so blatantly is dumping this next year down the drain, or is failing to sell players on next year that it is plain to see that we will not be winning for a long, long time. I get that he has to build a culture but, could we not sell good competitive players on playing for us this coming year?

I think Ben is a great guy but he must have a great class this fall or this is heading towards a train wreck. With a strong class we could have a good team (Soph laden) in 3 years at the earliest. That is probably the limit of the patience our fans will have. With a mediocre one we are looking at 4-5 years.
 

Stan

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Did you read the title of the thread?

Yes, that is literally what I am saying. Read the original post. He said this isn't going as planned. You said "It is very shortsighted and naive to declare his plan has already failed." Literally no one said "his plan has already failed" except you. Read the thread title, read the OP, it said it's not going as planned and no where except YOUR post does it say "already failed." Stop trying to advance a narrative to then use it to create hyperbole. You're watching too much cable news.
 


Stan

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EG- While I appreciate your well thought out post, I have to disagree with you. The vast majority of 'supporters' did not expect Ben to come in and start cleaning up on the recruiting front. From day one of this hire, most knew that this was going to be a hire that required patience as Ben built relationships with the recruits. Anyone who said otherwise is delusional. This is a HUGE gamble predicated on the hope that Ben can build something from scratch. Most have come to grips that this was going to be a process that might take years to bear fruit. I am squarely in the let's see what happens camp. The hire has been made... we have no other choice.

Wrong. Ryan James who some stroke his post, fawned over the hire for the exact reason EG laid out. He touted Garcia as a kid who may come here, he said AAU coaches in MN will help steer their kids and more. I'm sure there are others. Doogie did some of this too, as did Justin Gaard.
 

Bob_Loblaw

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There are also members of board that hated hire from day one and are jumping on Ben already. They believe the hire of Ben was 100% political and want him to fail

we wont' know if Ben is a failure this summer, this fall, or even next spring. Ben, like any coach will need time.

I am hoping for good news soon to get some of you off the ledge, but cripes
No, this is hyperbole.

There are people who believe it had something to do with race/politics and mentioned it. How dare they?!?!? I don't think any of those people want Ben to fail.

Of course we won't know if he is a success this summer but we're all here to talk Gopher basketball.
 

ecoperson

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I think that the OP is stating correctly that we see a new coach building a program at Iowa State and that coach is attempting to win sooner and looking like he is seeing success in recruiting towards that goal. One could see ISU improving this next year and being on a faster track to success. Is the ISU guy taking chances on low character guys? I don't know, it doesn't seem like it as he has gotten a few guys that I assume Ben would have liked.

The concern is that Ben so blatantly is dumping this next year down the drain, or is failing to sell players on next year that it is plain to see that we will not be winning for a long, long time. I get that he has to build a culture but, could we not sell good competitive players on playing for us this coming year?

I think Ben is a great guy but he must have a great class this fall or this is heading towards a train wreck. With a strong class we could have a good team (Soph laden) in 3 years at the earliest. That is probably the limit of the patience our fans will have. With a mediocre one we are looking at 4-5 years.
Each situation is different. ISU has a fan base that supports their team through thick or thin. What else are they going to do? They threw their support behind the coach early on and said lets row this boat together. Our fan base is fickle, pessimistic, and has no patience. We have approached mutiny in a few short months. One has to wonder whether their response has helped their cause while our response has hindered ours. I am embarrassed by our fans' reaction to the hire of Ben Johnson.

Ben is 'blatantly dumping next year down the drain?' Is that part of his plan?!
 


Stan

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Each situation is different. ISU has a fan base that supports their team through thick or thin. What else are they going to do? They threw their support behind the coach early on and said lets row this boat together. Our fan base is fickle, pessimistic, and has no patience. We have approached mutiny in a few short months. One has to wonder whether their response has helped their cause while our response has hindered ours. I am embarrassed by our fans' reaction to the hire of Ben Johnson.

Ben is 'blatantly dumping next year down the drain?' Is that part of his plan?!

This is the most laughable statement in this thread. We've won 2 BT titles since 1972 in basketball and haven't won one since 1967 in football. I'd say anyone who is a fan still is the definition of patient.
 

salzie

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No, this is hyperbole.

There are people who believe it had something to do with race/politics and mentioned it. How dare they?!?!? I don't think any of those people want Ben to fail.

Of course we won't know if he is a success this summer but we're all here to talk Gopher basketball.
Yes, I used a little hyperbole, but criticism is over top and it's been politically driven at times

Ben Johnson wasn't my choice, Craig Smith was. But I'm not AD

I'm going to give Ben time and not panic that our recruiting class isn't full already. I do believe 2022 is important, but in this thread some are already predicting if it goes bad it'll just steamroll into an salvageable situation

I'm honestly tired of the negativity. I'm not saying we need to be blind homers but it's a little over top

you're right, it's a message board. Some can shout doom and gloom and some can call them out.
 

ecoperson

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Wrong. Ryan James who some stroke his post, fawned over the hire for the exact reason EG laid out. He touted Garcia as a kid who may come here, he said AAU coaches in MN will help steer their kids and more. I'm sure there are others. Doogie did some of this too, as did Justin Gaard.
Read my post. Did I talk about James, Gaard, or Doogie? I wasn't talking about the media. I was talking about the majority of our fans who have accepted that Ben Johnson is our coach and are willing to see what happens in a game, in a full recruiting cycle, or in a full season before calling him a failure.

I have said this countless times... if you people aren't willing to band together to organize some sort of initiative to let the administration know of your feelings on this hire with the hopes of making a change then shut your traps and move on. All of the senseless bleating on here is doing NOTHING to solve the problem. It is an utter waste of your energy and distracting from those who just want to get recruiting insights.

Quit beating a dead horse and come back in a year when we have something to talk about. If this doesn't work for you, maybe you can take the opportunity to throw your support behind another up and coming team in UST.
 


ecoperson

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This is the most laughable statement in this thread. We've won 2 BT titles since 1972 in basketball and haven't won one since 1967 in football. I'd say anyone who is a fan still is the definition of patient.
Is the only measure of success titles? I hate to say it but we will NEVER win a title in football again. We may win the West but we are NEVER going to win a B1G title. If that makes you want to quit supporting the program, please do so.

Can we not enjoy the many teams that we have had in both sports that have done well over the last couple of decades? There have been many. What are you patiently waiting for?
 

Stan

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Read my post. Did I talk about James, Gaard, or Doogie? I wasn't talking about the media. I was talking about the majority of our fans who have accepted that Ben Johnson is our coach and are willing to see what happens in a game, in a full recruiting cycle, or in a full season before calling him a failure.

I have said this countless times... if you people aren't willing to band together to organize some sort of initiative to let the administration know of your feelings on this hire with the hopes of making a change then shut your traps and move on. All of the senseless bleating on here is doing NOTHING to solve the problem. It is an utter waste of your energy and distracting from those who just want to get recruiting insights.

Quit beating a dead horse and come back in a year when we have something to talk about. If this doesn't work for you, maybe you can take the opportunity to throw your support behind another up and coming team in UST.

I'm willing to band together. I have season tickets for both sports. Does that count? I travel to road games, does that count? I also express my frustration, is that allowed? Love the fan police. Nothing better.
 

ecoperson

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I'm willing to band together. I have season tickets for both sports. Does that count? I travel to road games, does that count? I also express my frustration, is that allowed? Love the fan police. Nothing better.
Read my posts again... you are within your rights to bitch and moan. I am not policing anything. I hate inaction. If you are truly as angry and frustrated as you say you are, I would love to see you show the initiative to pull together a signature drive or start a group to show the administration that the fan base cares, has had enough, and is willing to run through walls to get this program back on the map.

Why waste your time bleating with the rest of the sheep on a message board? Get active! Use your voice to go find the results that you are seeking. Every team has a fan base. Not every team has a fan base that is so united in its hate for its new coach that they rally the administration to get him fired before he coaches a game. Dare to dream big!
 

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Yes, I used a little hyperbole, but criticism is over top and it's been politically driven at times

Ben Johnson wasn't my choice, Craig Smith was. But I'm not AD

I'm going to give Ben time and not panic that our recruiting class isn't full already. I do believe 2022 is important, but in this thread some are already predicting if it goes bad it'll just steamroll into an salvageable situation

I'm honestly tired of the negativity. I'm not saying we need to be blind homers but it's a little over top

you're right, it's a message board. Some can shout doom and gloom and some can call them out.
A political hire.
 





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