Ten Gophers football players indefinately suspended

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Watched the lengthy report on KSTP Ch 5 at 10:00pm. Coyle did not come off well. Read a prepared statement, then answered questions for less than 2 minutes - and almost every answer was "I can't comment on that due to privacy rules."

Here's the interesting thing: Coyle is stating that he and Claeys made the decision to suspend the players. But Joe Schmitt said Claeys did not want to suspend the players. And Jay Sawvel described the FB program as "under attack." (his words). Sawvel also said that at least one of the suspended players was not at the apartment in question that night.

I'm getting flashbacks to the Gopher basketball situation in 1986 when 3 Gopher players were accused of a sexual assault in Madison. Jim Dutcher resigned as the head BB coach as a result of the incident, and the team forfeited a game. This has the potential to get really ugly if the lawsuits start flying.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Here's the interesting thing: Coyle is stating that he and Claeys made the decision to suspend the players. But Joe Schmitt said Claeys did not want to suspend the players. And Jay Sawvel described the FB program as "under attack." (his words). Sawvel also said that at least one of the suspended players was not at the apartment in question that night.
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I agree, nothing is making sense and the I read about this it sounds like the football team is getting dealt a bad hand. Also, interested to know more about the term 'under attack.'. I agree, Coyle looked completely out of place and uncomfortable talking to the media.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Watched the lengthy report on KSTP Ch 5 at 10:00pm. Coyle did not come off well. Read a prepared statement, then answered questions for less than 2 minutes - and almost every answer was "I can't comment on that due to privacy rules."

Here's the interesting thing: Coyle is stating that he and Claeys made the decision to suspend the players. But Joe Schmitt said Claeys did not want to suspend the players. And Jay Sawvel described the FB program as "under attack." (his words). Sawvel also said that at least one of the suspended players was not at the apartment in question that night.

I'm getting flashbacks to the Gopher basketball situation in 1986 when 3 Gopher players were accused of a sexual assault in Madison. Jim Dutcher resigned as the head BB coach as a result of the incident, and the team forfeited a game. This has the potential to get really ugly if the lawsuits start flying.
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I did not see the report and don't want to pile on.... But this situation just smells of a complete lack of direction and active management. I get that there are sensitive legal issues and things out of their control. Many people have (rightly) stated this. However, these people, Coyle certainly included, are some of our highest paid public employees. They make more money than a chief of police. Yet, they have no direction or smartly worded conviction on the topic? Come on! This is not a new issue. If you can't provide leadership in these situations, when it's desperately needed, when can you?
 

MNfootballfan said:
http://m.startribune.com/punished-gophers-football-players-are-the-news-not-bowl-talk/406682886/

Sawvel said that one of the players that is suspended wasn't even present the night of the incident. Is the joke on us? Are we the idiots that continue to support this school? Usually off the field incidents, progress reports, etc don't bother me - I'd be bummed, complain on gopherhole and then get over it. I usually only really care about watching the Gophers on the field on Saturday's. For some reason the lack of leadership has really rubbed me the wrong way. I told my wife tonight I really don't even care if I purchase tickets next year. It used to be my favorite thing to do, but I'm just burnt out.
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I wish our university would set the trend of finally standing up to groups like the EOAA. Unfortunately, I don't think it makes sense for them to draw a line in the sand for a case involving athletes because the public perception would be that they are just protecting the football team. I talked about these offices last night on this thread. This stuff is happening all across the country to athletes and non-athletes alike. They have attempted to re-define equality, harassment, and consent (and a slew of other words).

Their definition of equality is essentially equality of outcome (which is obviously absurd) rather than equality of opportunity.
Their definition of consent is essentially non-regret (but that really only applies to women during sex). For instance, if I went to casino and agreed to make a bet but later regretted it. . .I still consented.
Their definition of harassment can include telling third parties the truth (like literally, I have seen these offices describe harassment as a person telling a third party "I didn't assault her, she is lying").

Now, I am absolutely pro-equality, I think anyone who engages in non-consensual sex should be shot and if these guys actually harassed her, I hope they are kicked off the team. I just will use the actual definitions of these terms not the bastardization of the terms by groups like the EOAA.

But yeah, I understand your frustration, but keep in mind that this is an issue at every college campus in the country. It's bigger than just the U.
 

GopherBulldog said:
I did not see the report and don't want to pile on.... But this situation just smells of a complete lack of direction and active management. I get that there are sensitive legal issues and things out of their control. Many people have (rightly) stated this. However, these people, Coyle certainly included, are some of our highest paid public employees. They make more money than a chief of police. Yet, they have no direction or smartly worded conviction on the topic? Come on! This is not a new issue. If you can't provide leadership in these situations, when it's desperately needed, when can you?
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You mean the administration is getting in the way of defending, and/or is failing to provide the leadership needed to create winning athletic programs at the U? Shocking. I actually thought Coyle may be different. Just more of the same.
 


GopherWeatherGuy said:
You mean the administration is getting in the way of defending, and/or is failing to provide the leadership needed to create winning athletic programs at the U? Shocking. I actually thought Coyle may be different. Just more of the same.
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When they hired Coyle I was really optimistic about the future of the athletic program. But this situation has completely changed my perspective. As you say, more of the same... very disappointing.
 

Did y'all hire a search team to hire that Coyle guy? He seems to have the media presence of a corn cob. Not that I follow minnesota athletics much but it seems like you have the same problem year after year that we have. Idiot Athletic directors.
 

At the end of the day, the sky isn't falling. It's %10... TEN percent of our team. And only about %5 of our critical players. We'll be fine.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

It seems a disaster all around: Coyle is a timid politician; Kaler bought into the PC nonsense long before the incident; the accused have no due process rights; and the athletes - how could anyone on scholarship be dumb enough to get involved in a public orgy that also involved drugs? This is a crushing blow to the football program just at the bowl and recruiting periods.
 



Per the 82 page report 4 players were accused of sexual assault, 8 players were accused of sexual harassment, and 1 player was accused of lying to investigators. Interestingly the conclusion was that the board found the accuser's story more credible than the players. It noted inconsistencies in the players report. What KTSP did not mention was that the accuser admitted to being drunk, had already falsely accused Kiondre Thomas of being involved, and the police found her story inconsistent with the 3 videos Djam presented.

This looks awfully like a decision was railroaded through despite all available evidence. As Bob has stated the definitions of sexual assault and harassment are different between legal standard and what the OCR has mandated. For example, harassment can be as simple as having an "offensive" book on your desk when someone walks by. An intoxicated female is "unable" to give consent but an intoxicated male is not held to the same standard.

I'd like to see Kaler and Coyle stand up for the rights of these students and say hey, I don't like this process but our hands are tied, if you don't like it take it up with your elected leaders. The overwhelming fear of a Title IX inquiry prevents even that. As I've stated numerous times Kaler is the epitome of plausible deniability and Coyle from day one has been a carefully worded politician-administrator. They have proven themselves to be skilled bureaucracy surfers, not people that rock activist boats. Our opponents have no qualms about raising their voices, bringing legal and political weapons into play, and stamping their feet for change. The good news is that the tide is changing through legal and political channels. Awareness is being raised little by little although it will be too late to help these guys.
 

Sawvel is the kind of guy I'd run through a brick wall for. He's also the kind of guy that might be tempted to take a lower level HC job or lateral move DC job with all the garbage going on. What type of employee wants to be constantly harassed and unable to perform their job well? His defense is probably about to get boat raced and he knows it. The frustration level can get to a point that a fiery guy like that will say screw you, screw this, and move on.

Looking at the list of players we will be down to Croft and McLaurin at QB next year, and perhaps a walk-on true freshman. We may lose our best returning DBs. Our best end. Lee Hutton has work to do.
 

Can't see the logic for getting behind the players on this one. WTF are these guys out partying in the presence of alcohol after a game? WTF didnt they get the hell out of there when they saw what was going down with an inebriated cheerleader? How many F'ing times were these kids warned by coaches, administrators, etc to avoid exactly these types of situations? WTF didn't these guys pay attention to what happened with Dorsey last spring?

Playing football is a PRIVILEGE and the principals in this fiasco gave the university a black eye, not the EEOC or WTF its called.
Blaming this on "feminists" and "PC police" is total bull****. These guys deserved to be suspended. Hardin can join Dorsey wherever he ended up.

Memo to Claeys: next time recruit character.
 

I can't see the need for self-righteous grandstanding. Eighty percent of student athletes drink (the stat I recall) which is consistent with the general college population. Is this BYU? Are players routinely kicked off the team for having a drink of alchohol? How about expelled from school?

Try to separate what you think the students "should be doing" on Saturday night and the debacle that is the Title IX inquiry process, the EEOC, and the OCR, and many other alphabet soup organizations. Two different issues that may be related but one does not equate to the other.

The issue here is whether the students actually committed the crimes they are accused of and (this is important) by what standard? Legal standard or a made-up standard generated by a politically-appointed activist? It is not at all manifest that there is "clear and convincing" evidence in this case.
 



Bob_Loblaw said:
I'm not defending the AD and the President, but this is an EXTREMELY difficult situation.

They are really in a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation.

If they support the court's findings and ignore the Title IX recommendation, they better be sure (to a 100% certainty) that everything is on the up and up. They need to be 100% certain that there wasn't any form of harassment or anything. The public perception for not acting in these situations (where a Title IX recommendation has been made) is brutal. Go read the comments in the Strib or Pioneer Press. It is crushing for a university that has more important things to think about than football.

If they take the Title IX recommendations seriously, they could face a potential lawsuit from the players.

These extra-judicial entities like the EoAA have run amok and the universities, throughout the country, are held hostage by these things. I'm not defending Kaler and Coyle, but it's a tough spot.
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Good post. I guarantee Kaler and Coyle would much rather deal with a robbery, fight, academic scandal, or just about anything other than something like this. It is impossible to make everyone happy. No matter what you do there will be a large group of people who don't like the way you handled it. And those people will probably have some valid points.

I like the idea of having something like the EOAA, but the process has definitely not been perfected. When a district attorney declines to bring charges it does not necessarily mean that no crime was committed, it means the DA does not believe there is enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime was committed. When someone who feels they were sexually assaulted has to continue to attend school with the person they accused it can become tough for them in many ways. It is a good step to have something like the EOAA in place to help determine the validity of the accusation and if there is anything the school can do. However the accused has to have rights as well, even outside the legal system, which makes it an extremely difficult situation to manage. So many things to balance, and on top of that you can never control the rumor mill.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
This isn't always true, especially in situations like this. Having that language in a settlement of this nature isn't standard (to the best of my knowledge). It isn't standard because accusing someone of a crime and charges not being filed on that crime does not leave you open to potential liability. You are almost better off (in the court of public opinion) to not include the language if the situation could not possibly present itself. Where this situation presents itself is where there is proof that someone lied on a police report.
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If I remember correctly Jameis Winston was not charged with a crime in the whole fiasco at FSU, but the woman who accused him eventually sued him. Even if she ends up losing that suit (she may have already lost it, but I know she filed a civil suit against him), it would still be a pain in the butt to deal with down the road not to mention the additional attorney fees. I don't know which party asked for the "no civil suit" clause to be included (and no one on this board does), but I'm just pointing out that it would make sense for the players as well. It's just as plausible that they asked for it to be included as it is that she did.
 

GopherBulldog said:
If they disagree with it, they need to find an elegant way to state their opinion and change it. I see absolutely zero direction from them at this point. When leaders choose to not take a firm direction, the people that suffer are those with the least amount of power. Namely, it will be the players, the alleged victim, or both.
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They are taking a very firm direction, it's just that many on this board don't like it. They aren't legally allowed to get into specifics, but the direction they are taking is that these players might have committed serious violations of the student code of conduct and won't be allowed to play until all of that is sorted out. Neither Coyle/Kaler can provide any finality on the process at this time because the process is still playing out and it would be inappropriate for them to make any declarations about what they think should happen. Knowing that they can't get into any specifics and that it would be wrong for them to influence the process in any way I don't know what more you want them to say.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Per the 82 page report 4 players were accused of sexual assault, 8 players were accused of sexual harassment, and 1 player was accused of lying to investigators. Interestingly the conclusion was that the board found the accuser's story more credible than the players. It noted inconsistencies in the players report. What KTSP did not mention was that the accuser admitted to being drunk, had already falsely accused Kiondre Thomas of being involved, and the police found her story inconsistent with the 3 videos Djam presented.

This looks awfully like a decision was railroaded through despite all available evidence. As Bob has stated the definitions of sexual assault and harassment are different between legal standard and what the OCR has mandated. For example, harassment can be as simple as having an "offensive" book on your desk when someone walks by. An intoxicated female is "unable" to give consent but an intoxicated male is not held to the same standard.

I'd like to see Kaler and Coyle stand up for the rights of these students and say hey, I don't like this process but our hands are tied, if you don't like it take it up with your elected leaders. The overwhelming fear of a Title IX inquiry prevents even that. As I've stated numerous times Kaler is the epitome of plausible deniability and Coyle from day one has been a carefully worded politician-administrator. They have proven themselves to be skilled bureaucracy surfers, not people that rock activist boats. Our opponents have no qualms about raising their voices, bringing legal and political weapons into play, and stamping their feet for change. The good news is that the tide is changing through legal and political channels. Awareness is being raised little by little although it will be too late to help these guys.
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Excellent points.
 

I can't imagine how few fans will be in the seats next year and what an awful season it will be if these suspensions and expulsions are upheld. From promising future back to laughingstock of college football and the Big Ten in less than 2 years. I feel sorry for the fans that have followed this program so closely for so many years, I only really started following closely with the hiring of Kill. Now it is back to how it's always been in my lifetime, for the most part (with the exception of Holtz). Embarrassing to say the least. The best thing about Gopher Football is this forum, pretty sad. I can't help but wonder if this happens under Kill, and if it does, does he just toss the guys off the team in a swift manner after the incident? At least the 4 directly involved. Guess we'll never know.
 

The "she said" must be more than one "she". Or, the story would have gone away. The problem with this case lies in the lack of physical evidence. And, snippets of video may not reveal an accurate portrayal of events.

Lawyer to witness: Please describe the apple for the court.
Witness: The apple is red and speckled.
Lawyer: Wouldn't you agree that yellow delicious or green Granny Smiths apples are also possibilities in this case?
Witness: the yellow ones were really immature oranges and the green ones were grapes.
Lawyer: What color is the orange in this matter?
Witness: Yellow.
Lawyer: But by definition all oranges are the color orange.
Witness: The color was yellow.
Lawyer: Have you ever seen a lemon before? Might it have been a yellow lemon?
Witness: I have seen lemons before. Lemons are yellow. This was a yellow colored orange.
Lawyer: A yellow orange?
Witness: Yes.
Lawyer: So, you are telling me that some oranges are yellow.
Witness: Yes.
Lawyer: Motion to strike, your honor, as we all know, oranges are by definition are orange. Even if the witness says the color was something other than orange, the law states that oranges are oranges, and therefore the color was orange and not yellow.
 

Block M said:
Can't see the logic for getting behind the players on this one. WTF are these guys out partying in the presence of alcohol after a game? WTF didnt they get the hell out of there when they saw what was going down with an inebriated cheerleader? How many F'ing times were these kids warned by coaches, administrators, etc to avoid exactly these types of situations? WTF didn't these guys pay attention to what happened with Dorsey last spring?

Playing football is a PRIVILEGE and the principals in this fiasco gave the university a black eye, not the EEOC or WTF its called.
Blaming this on "feminists" and "PC police" is total bull****. These guys deserved to be suspended. Hardin can join Dorsey wherever he ended up.

Memo to Claeys: next time recruit character.
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Great post. You are one of the few posters in this thread who gets it. Below is a short list of U policies and rules that the 10 players might have violated and now are possibly being used to suspend them, kick them off the team, or expel them from school even though their actions may not be a crime requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And the list doesn't even include any of Athletics Department and football team rules that the players might have violated. Furthermore, it is safe bet that at least a few of the of the football players lied to the police, the administration, or TC about their involvement in this case. That, by itself, would be grounds for suspension at the very least.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

University Policies Regarding Alcohol

Students are held responsible under the Student Conduct Code for illegal or unauthorized possession or use of alcohol.

In the residence halls and apartments, residents under the age of 21 may not possess, consume or be in the presence of alcohol.

If You Decide to Drink...

Know and follow Minnesota laws and University policies regarding alcohol.

Watch how much your friends have had to drink and help them if they appear to be in trouble. Don’t be afraid to call for help.

Know how much you drink and the effect it has on you.

Use a designated driver that is sober.

Don’t leave your drink unattended or accept drinks from strangers.

https://oscai.umn.edu/avoid-violations/responsible-alcohol-use


Student Code of Conduct


Subd. 6. Harm to Person. Harm to person means engaging in conduct that endangers or threatens to endanger the physical and/or mental health, safety, or welfare of another person, including, but not limited to, threatening, stalking, harassing, intimidating, or assaulting behavior.

Subd. 8. Sexual Misconduct. Sexual misconduct means any non-consensual behavior of a sexual nature that is committed by force or intimidation, or that is otherwise unwelcome. Sexual misconduct includes the following behaviors: sexual assault, relationship violence, stalking, and sexual or gender based harassment.

Subd. 11. Illegal or Unauthorized Possession or Use of Drugs or Alcohol. Illegal or unauthorized possession or use of drugs or alcohol means possessing or using drugs or alcohol illegally or, where applicable, without proper University authorization.

Subd. 12. Providing Alcohol to Minors. Providing alcohol to minors means directly or indirectly providing alcohol to anyone under the legal drinking age.

Subd. 19. Violation of University Rules. Violation of University rules means engaging in conduct that violates University, collegiate, or departmental regulations that have been posted or publicized, including provisions contained in University contracts with students.

https://regents.umn.edu/sites/regents.umn.edu/files/policies/Student_Conduct_Code.pdf
 

What will be interesting to me is how fast Coyle gets the appeals heard. There is no reason they couldn't be done this week and a decision be made. An AD with weight (which we don't know how strong he is yet) would be able to make the University move to get this done. If this goes on the usual 3 month university speed, we'll have a big clue how much power Coyle doesn't have. Get this resolved and let's move on.
 

1500: Questions abundant in wake of Gophers’ suspensions

Any buzz created by the Gophers’ Holiday Bowl berth was silenced late Tuesday afternoon when the University of Minnesota suspended 10 Gophers football players indefinitely based on an investigation into their involvement in an alleged sexual assault in early September.

The independent investigation was conducted by the office of Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action (EOAA), and is standard university procedure for sexual assaults reported to University of Minnesota offices.

Because of the prior legal proceedings, Tuesday’s announcement was surprising both in terms of the timing and scope of punishment. More than 36 hours later, details about the situation are still sparse, and the lack of specifics being released about the punishments and the decision making by the university is concerning.

http://www.1500espn.com/gophers-2/2016/12/questions-abundant-wake-gophers-suspensions/

Go Gophers!!
 

Coyle just got burned for being a recluse. First time in public and he has to plead the 5th. Makes him look really weak.
 

I just read a couple pages of this thread and the names of the player so were used as to where they were that's night. One name I don't recall reading during the descriptions was kiante Hardin? Any idea as to why he is suspended?
 

Sparlimb said:
What will be interesting to me is how fast Coyle gets the appeals heard. There is no reason they couldn't be done this week and a decision be made. An AD with weight (which we don't know how strong he is yet) would be able to make the University move to get this done. If this goes on the usual 3 month university speed, we'll have a big clue how much power Coyle doesn't have. Get this resolved and let's move on.
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First of all, Kaler, and not Coyle, is going to be calling the shots from now on. Even if he or Coyle had influence over how fast the appeals will be heard (which is doubtful), there is no way they will exercise it. Millions of people in Minnesota and every media outlet in the state will be watching their every move to make sure they do nothing to tilt the scales of justice in this case.
 

So, based on public statements and press releases from the EOAA only, how many actions does it take against female students versus male students?

I would find this data fascinating because of publically available demographics around gender differences.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 

Block M said:
Can't see the logic for getting behind the players on this one. WTF are these guys out partying in the presence of alcohol after a game? WTF didnt they get the hell out of there when they saw what was going down with an inebriated cheerleader? How many F'ing times were these kids warned by coaches, administrators, etc to avoid exactly these types of situations? WTF didn't these guys pay attention to what happened with Dorsey last spring?

Playing football is a PRIVILEGE and the principals in this fiasco gave the university a black eye, not the EEOC or WTF its called.
Blaming this on "feminists" and "PC police" is total bull****. These guys deserved to be suspended. Hardin can join Dorsey wherever he ended up.

Memo to Claeys: next time recruit character.
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you're a total joke if you believe a word of this
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Don't you see how your mindset is treating women as children? If a woman gives consent, she gives consent. She might have regrets. A lot of us have regrets about things that we initially consented to do. However, she is an adult and she should be treated like an adult. Her regret does not equal rape. It is disgusting that anyone would try to shoehorn the term "rape" into what is essentially "regret". It's disgusting to do the people that partook in a consensual act and it's disgusting to the victims of actual rape. The term "rape culture" is newspeak for regrettable sex. Well guess what, I imagine that these football players are really regretting this act as well. Are they now victims of this perceived rape culture? No. They are victims of regressive nuts that have infiltrated college campuses.

As far as your morals and things you believe in, who cares? Are you also advocating she gets kicked out of school? Or are you going to continue to devalue women and treat them like children (they can't give consent, us adults will figure out if they really meant it). We're in the United States and this is a public university, if the students aren't doing anything illegal and they aren't hurting anyone, who the hell am I to say they aren't representing the University's values. The particular details of a student's sex life is not for us to judge.

As far as "the fact the filed charges suggests that she felt she was raped". How so? People don't lie?
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This may be the single best thing I have ever read on Gopherhole. I couldn't agree with you more.
 

UpnorthGo4 said:
First of all, Kaler and not Coyle is going to be calling the shots from now on. Even if he or Coyle had influence over how fast the appeals will be heard (which is doubtful), there is no way they will exercise it. Millions of people in Minnesota and every media outlet in the state will be watching their every move to make sure they do nothing to tilt the scales of justice in this case.
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At some schools, the AD holds more power. I agree with you, that's not Minnesota.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Per the 82 page report 4 players were accused of sexual assault, 8 players were accused of sexual harassment, and 1 player was accused of lying to investigators. Interestingly the conclusion was that the board found the accuser's story more credible than the players. It noted inconsistencies in the players report. What KTSP did not mention was that the accuser admitted to being drunk, had already falsely accused Kiondre Thomas of being involved, and the police found her story inconsistent with the 3 videos Djam presented.

This looks awfully like a decision was railroaded through despite all available evidence. As Bob has stated the definitions of sexual assault and harassment are different between legal standard and what the OCR has mandated. For example, harassment can be as simple as having an "offensive" book on your desk when someone walks by. An intoxicated female is "unable" to give consent but an intoxicated male is not held to the same standard.

I'd like to see Kaler and Coyle stand up for the rights of these students and say hey, I don't like this process but our hands are tied, if you don't like it take it up with your elected leaders. The overwhelming fear of a Title IX inquiry prevents even that. As I've stated numerous times Kaler is the epitome of plausible deniability and Coyle from day one has been a carefully worded politician-administrator. They have proven themselves to be skilled bureaucracy surfers, not people that rock activist boats. Our opponents have no qualms about raising their voices, bringing legal and political weapons into play, and stamping their feet for change. The good news is that the tide is changing through legal and political channels. Awareness is being raised little by little although it will be too late to help these guys.
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The President, AD, and Claeys all have to respect the Title IX process publicly. Behind closed doors I am sure the coaches have a different opinion, but there are good reasons for having Title IX (protect women on college campuses would be the main reason I believe). Some schools forced this by not talking sexual assault investigations seriously enough and I believe that is where this came from. If the University does not comply, a large loss of funding and prestige is at stake. It could cripple the University which is bigger than the football program.

That being said, none of us were there that night. I don't think you have gone there PE, but many other posters have come out and said things that I find disturbing and unbecoming of our fan base. When football becomes more important than the health and safety of other students, then we are no better than Penn State or Baylor. Maybe sex with Djam was consensual, and then it became a revolving door of other participants and onlookers. No one deserves to have that and I don't care if she put herself into this situation by having a few drinks and entering their apartment.
 

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