Student Section Attendence: who is ultimately responsible for this problem?

[CP Gopher]

Here's what the students need on game day:
1. A human snooze button to gently remind them every five minutes that it's time to wake up.
2. A free catered breakfast buffet at home.
3. A ride to the game in a minivan equipped with a video game console.
4. Pregame entertainment in a heated venue with free beer and an unlimited variety of games, music and NetFlix options.
5. Seats at the game in a heated section with cushioned individual chairs and free beer.
6. Adults assigned to let them know how important they are every five minutes.
7. Minivans to drive them back home to parties with free food and beer.

Am I missing anything?

 

[pointman99]

Here's what the students need on game day:
1. A human snooze button to gently remind them every five minutes that it's time to wake up.
2. A free catered breakfast buffet at home.
3. A ride to the game in a minivan equipped with a video game console.
4. Pregame entertainment in a heated venue with free beer and an unlimited variety of games, music and NetFlix options.
5. Seats at the game in a heated section with cushioned individual chairs and free beer.
6. Adults assigned to let them know how important they are every five minutes.
7. Minivans to drive them back home to parties with free food and beer.

Am I missing anything?

Ha!

 

[t-docious]

Here's what the students need on game day:
1. A human snooze button to gently remind them every five minutes that it's time to wake up.
2. A free catered breakfast buffet at home.
3. A ride to the game in a minivan equipped with a video game console.
4. Pregame entertainment in a heated venue with free beer and an unlimited variety of games, music and NetFlix options.
5. Seats at the game in a heated section with cushioned individual chairs and free beer.
6. Adults assigned to let them know how important they are every five minutes.
7. Minivans to drive them back home to parties with free food and beer.

Am I missing anything?

The most important and should be number one in bold is beer. BEER BEER BEER. People always show up where there is beer or where they can drink beer. Students need a tailgate lot like every other DI and DIII team in the NCAA.

 

[imthewalrus]

The basketball team has been exponentially more successful than the football team over the last few decades. Take a look at the number of winning Big Ten seasons in basketball and compare it to football. Glen Mason had two. Clem Haskins had seven. And it's not just those two, compare any basketball coach to any football coach in the last 40 years and you'll see similar results. Basketball hasn't been on fire lately, but it hasn't been the Big Ten doormat that football has been for decades.

The problem was that clem ended up with perhaps the biggest cheating scandal in history. The Football Program suffered as the 2nd-hand shame and guilt trip brought on the entire University of Minnesota name by clem's horrible cheating scandal disgraced the University of Minnesota and everything associated with it.

Gopherprof: Dating back to the Musselman scandal days...Dutcher's loss of institutional control/mitch lee Madison incident and lastly the clem scandal, basketball at the U has done it's best to try to KILL sports programs at the U. Granted, lou hoax tried to get into the act and luther darville was a bag man with goodies for athletes at the U of Min the early 1980's...BUT about every 12 to 15 years the Men's Basketball Program at the University has been BUSTED, big-time by the mismanagement and cheating of the hoops coaches and the administrator's complete lack of attention. So, Gopherprof....don't EVEN try to tell me that Men's Hoops has been some kind of show-case program. They have even had their records and wins stripped they got SO FAR out of hand. Basketball has been down-right out of control and lacking in integrity all too often.

Hoops hasn't helped the situation for ANY sport's program at the U of M.

The hoops program with it's scandals has made itself probably one of the ten or fifteen most "shamed athletic programs in America in the past half century if the truth were to be known Gopherprof....

; 0 (

Don't EVER try to bad-mouth my Golden Gopher Football Program by telling me how wonderful the Men's Hoops Program has been in the past half century. That is just plain a LIE, Gopherprof....I cheer for Gopher Hoops...but...they have made me feel ashamed of the scandals TOO many times...


; 0 )

 

[imthewalrus]

The most important and should be number one in bold is beer. BEER BEER BEER. People always show up where there is beer or where they can drink beer. Students need a tailgate lot like every other DI and DIII team in the NCAA.

So who would be in charge of getting that done for the students? Coach Kill? prexy k? Our new norwood? The State Legislature? I can guarantee it won't happen unless you can win the support of the University of Minnesota Administration...at the very least. So, which administrator could be accountable for the "beer for under-aged students in the student section?"

Without a specific person to go to, you are just out there on your own and you will have to fend for yourself. Do you really want a great student section in TCF BANK STADIUM? Maybe none of the students really want to have a GREAT STUDENT SECTION? I guess if it doesn't matter to the students, why should it matter to anyone else? Is that the case t-docious?

; 0 )

 

[maroonfive]

If you require booze to have a good time you have no imagination. The game itself should be more than enough.

 

[RochesterGopher]

If you require booze to have a good time you have no imagination. The game itself should be more than enough.

Sadly enough I think you are in the minority opinion compared to many people who go to sports events today. Thats pro teams in town can get away with an 8 dollar bottle of beer.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

A lot of the people seem to think that allowing underage students to drink is the answer.

Let me be very clear about this: I am a recovering alcoholic. When I was in college, I was literally a falling-down drunk. Now, I am NOT opposed to some reasonable accomodations for student tailgating, but I have a hard time accepting that the only way to get students to attend a game is to get them plastered.

I did not attend the U - but I still went to Gopher games - because I wanted to see a D-1 football game. I'm a football fan. After I quit drinking (3 trips through rehab.........), I still went to Gopher games. Sure, I saw some bad games, but I saw a few good games, too. There has to be more to the answer than booze.

I will agree with Wren on one issue (!!!) - somebody does have to be in charge. Unfortunately, at the U these days, it seems like the main pursuit of the administration is finding ways to boost their obscene salaries and providing more golden parachutes for retiring administrators.

Given the U's love of multiple layers of unneeded administrators, I would be willing to bet that there is a assistant AD for football. He/she probably makes a huge salary and does very little work.

 

[GopherVotary]

Cash payments might get the students to show up. Maybe.

 

[bemidjigopher]

It seems as though so much of the blame, the need to change, the frustration and the hopelessness that results from having no ONE person being accountable for this situation at the Univrsity of Minnesota has resulted in lack of satisfaction In the Game Day Environment.

To me, the person who is the "buck stopper" would HAVE to come from this group of three: prexy k, our new norwood OR Coach Kill.

It would seem to me that the most logical choice would be our new norwood: that's right...the ATHLETIC DIRECTOR should be the go to contact person. He answers to prexy k and Coach Kill aswers to the ad.

If anyone feels it should fall on the shoulders of prexy k OR Coach Kill rather than our new norwood, please state your case/cases. But, this "they" or "the U" should be in charge is entirely too general for my tastes. I want to know if ANYONE is in charge....and if someone IS in charge, I want to know exactly who is in charge.

What do you folks think? In your opinion who is in charge of Game Day Saturday?

One of my biggest gripes is that we have NOT had a "football guy" as our AD since Tom Moe. An almost $300 million stadium has been brought to campus and while the Stadium is WONDERFUL...Game Day Saturday is not what it could be...should be...would be IF someone at the U WAS in charge and was really passionate about creating a REAL B1G GAME DAY ENVIRONMENT.

I think our new norwood should be working NON-STOP on this issue. I know he considers himself to be a basketball guy...BUT...he NEEDS to be a football guy to fix the problems over in TCF BANK STADIUM on Game Day Saturdays.

Just WHO do each of you think needs to be our "go to...stand-up...get the job done...the buck stops here..." individual at the University of Minnesota?

Perhaps, if we tell them who SHOULD be in charge and we put some pressure on, they will have to at least name the person who actually IS in charge. But, we NEED to have someone who is named as the person IN CHARGE and IS accountable. Without that...we just have a lot of "buck passing..." going on over there....

The problem goes with gopher football goes way beyond anyone currently involved you can blame every coach post Murry Warmath for the futility on the field, you can blame Lou Holtz and the AD at the time for pushing to be the fourth priority in the Dome, essentially killing any enthusiasm for the program by taking it off campus for 30 years, we're gonna need to produce winning football on the field to make gopher football cool among the students. Norwood and Kaler what they can do is figure out ways to make campus a more lively environment on game day, but ultimately in a town with a franchise in all four of the major sports, it's up to coach Kill to put a good product on the field that will make the fans come out.

 

[imthewalrus]

It seems as though so much of the blame, the need to change, the frustration and the hopelessness that results from having no ONE person being accountable for this situation at the Univrsity of Minnesota has resulted in lack of satisfaction In the Game Day Environment.

To me, the person who is the "buck stopper" would HAVE to come from this group of three: prexy k, our new norwood OR Coach Kill.

It would seem to me that the most logical choice would be our new norwood: that's right...the ATHLETIC DIRECTOR should be the go to contact person. He answers to prexy k and Coach Kill aswers to the ad.

If anyone feels it should fall on the shoulders of prexy k OR Coach Kill rather than our new norwood, please state your case/cases. But, this "they" or "the U" should be in charge is entirely too general for my tastes. I want to know if ANYONE is in charge....and if someone IS in charge, I want to know exactly who is in charge.

What do you folks think? In your opinion who is in charge of Game Day Saturday?

One of my biggest gripes is that we have NOT had a "football guy" as our AD since Tom Moe. An almost $300 million stadium has been brought to campus and while the Stadium is WONDERFUL...Game Day Saturday is not what it could be...should be...would be IF someone at the U WAS in charge and was really passionate about creating a REAL B1G GAME DAY ENVIRONMENT.

I think our new norwood should be working NON-STOP on this issue. I know he considers himself to be a basketball guy...BUT...he NEEDS to be a football guy to fix the problems over in TCF BANK STADIUM on Game Day Saturdays.

Just WHO do each of you think needs to be our "go to...stand-up...get the job done...the buck stops here..." individual at the University of Minnesota?

Perhaps, if we tell them who SHOULD be in charge and we put some pressure on, they will have to at least name the person who actually IS in charge. But, we NEED to have someone who is named as the person IN CHARGE and IS accountable. Without that...we just have a lot of "buck passing..." going on over there....

The problem goes with gopher football goes way beyond anyone currently involved you can blame every coach post Murry Warmath for the futility on the field, you can blame Lou Holtz and the AD at the time for pushing to be the fourth priority in the Dome, essentially killing any enthusiasm for the program by taking it off campus for 30 years, we're gonna need to produce winning football on the field to make gopher football cool among the students. Norwood and Kaler what they can do is figure out ways to make campus a more lively environment on game day, but ultimately in a town with a franchise in all four of the major sports, it's up to coach Kill to put a good product on the field that will make the fans come out.

Well bemedjigopher: I certainly wouldn't argue with any of your reasoning. Yes, the pressure does mount for Coach Kill to win more B1G games with his staff and his players. That would do some VERY good things for our Gophers. More bowl game invitations...chances to beat some names of programs that we don't play every day. More exposure for the GOLDEN GOPHER FOOTBALL PROGRAM. More fun for the fans.

I also agree about the difficulty in competing against 4 major league professional teams that spend one hell of a lot of money advertising. That means that the local press and the electronic media smooch the butts of the professional sports owners, athletes and coaches around the cities. The fickle fans "love" which ever team is going the best.

So, Coach Kill IS going to have to man up...stand up...win MORE B1G games and go to and win some more bowl games.

This will be a BIG year for Coach Kill, his staff and the team. This is the beginning of the "make...or...break" period.

The student section could have something to contribute to the Gopher Football Program during the 2013 season. The student section could make TCF BANK STADIUM a little tougher place for the likes of wisky, iowa, Nebraska, and every other football team that journeys to Minneapolis this fall to play our Gophers. Let's face it: our program is building...improving...trying to become more competitive in B1G Football.

Let's face it" our student section has NOT been a B1G student section. They have been pretty darn miserable. They basically have been the LOWEST of the B1G Student sections on a game to game basis. They have a chance to DO FOR THEMSELVES what NO ONE else can do for them: Simply, they just need to SHOW UP.Of ALL the problems Gopher Football has, the simplest one to FIX is the Student Section Debacle. They don't need approval from anyone. They don't need a hand-out from anyone. They just need to get their butts organized, get out of bed and SHOW UP. They don't need to be drunk on their butts. They have as cheap an admission ticket as ANY B1G student body. They could be GREAT! They COULD be contenders for the BEST. Time will tell.Coach Kill, his staff and the players could USE the support that the student section could provide.But, Bemedjigopher: I agree that Coach Kill and Company are going to have to start bringing home MORE B1G wins. And, it appears to me that will need to begin in the 2013 season.Go Gophs!

; 0 )

 

[GopherinPhilly]

I was at Iowa State this weekend with my daughter, who was touring the school. About a half-dozen students there (all women -- I think that's significant) talked about football games being "a blast," "a lot of fun," etc. Granted, those were tour guides who may be told to say that sort of thing. I tried to find information on student attendance at ISU and didn't have much luck. However, they do have 7,500 seats in the student section and 11 of the past 15 home games have had overall attendance in excess of 100%. Students must be going to games there.

Their record? Starting with last season and working backward, 6-7 (3-6), 6-7 (3-6), 5-7 (3-5), 7-6 (3-5). Better than us by a game or so, yes. But filling 7,500 student seats and having students say the games are "a blast" is still far ahead of where we are. There must be more than wins involved in their success.

I've attended a game at ISU (It was NE at ISU so that would have something to do with the excitement) and it was a blast. This is back when ISU really stunk and the fans filled their stadium. We pregamed with a bunch of Alum (my friend graduated from ISU) and our crew of 8 from NE for several hours before the game and the watched the game (NE Won). After the game we were back in the parking partying for a few hours and then we hit several bars. Never got hassled, never got followed by cop cars (have been twice at Gopher games), never had any issues except at last bar when a few pissy ISU fans started *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!# over our NE gear...it ended quickly.

ISU compared to the U isn't even close...they kill gameday compared to us. Take places like NE or AL or PSU, and they kill ISU. We are so far down the list of fun game day experiences it is sad.

I don't know who to blame...but is seems to me we have a couple of alumni groups that should be front and center on working with the admin, AD & campus to get this stuff resolved. People speak with their check books...maybe it is time that the groups that raise funds assert their authority.

 

[GopherinPhilly]

Don't want to be a buzz-kill, but I just want to remind everyone that there's a fine line between "letting the kids have fun," and having things get out of hand. I have no problems with some type of student tailgating area - providing there is enough supervision to prevent underage drinking and drinking to excess. All it would take is 1 case of drunken stupidity, and the U would crack down even harder.

I would hope the U will look at all ideas to promote student attendance, but in the end, the students have to want to go to the game. And that, in large part, is up to the team to make Gopher FB games a must-see attraction. If they're winning games and playing an exciting brand of FB, the fans will follow.

One idea on my part - a sliding scale for student season tickets or single-game tickets. Lowest price for Freshmen, and the price goes up each year for Soph, Juniors and Seniors.

First...you are obviously king of the buzz kills. Second, do you really think not having student areas prevents underage drinking, binge drinking and drug use? I'm not going to go on a rant about the 21 drinking age in this country and all the other ridiculous laws that our country has passed...but I am going to say this...these kids are all 18, they will find what they need to high if they want to.

 

[GopherinPhilly]

A lot of the people seem to think that allowing underage students to drink is the answer.

Let me be very clear about this: I am a recovering alcoholic. When I was in college, I was literally a falling-down drunk. Now, I am NOT opposed to some reasonable accomodations for student tailgating, but I have a hard time accepting that the only way to get students to attend a game is to get them plastered.

I did not attend the U - but I still went to Gopher games - because I wanted to see a D-1 football game. I'm a football fan. After I quit drinking (3 trips through rehab.........), I still went to Gopher games. Sure, I saw some bad games, but I saw a few good games, too. There has to be more to the answer than booze.

I will agree with Wren on one issue (!!!) - somebody does have to be in charge. Unfortunately, at the U these days, it seems like the main pursuit of the administration is finding ways to boost their obscene salaries and providing more golden parachutes for retiring administrators.

Given the U's love of multiple layers of unneeded administrators, I would be willing to bet that there is a assistant AD for football. He/she probably makes a huge salary and does very little work.

Congrats on your sobriety. That said, not all of us are unable to manage our alcohol consumption that we are either sober or falling down drunk. The greater percentage of us drinkers manage to drink, have a great time and not fall down. This was true in college as it is now. This isn't about you...it is about the thousands of U of M students that live within minutes of the stadium that don't feel like they can enjoy their football their way and would rather drink keg beer at home and watch on TV than go out and mingle. And yes, not being able to enjoy their beer with friends in the open is a huge part of the experience we lack.

If you haven't been to a game day at schools that know how to do it...then you really don't understand, it isn't just drinking. I attended a game in boulder (NE @ CO) and here is how our game day went.

1. We stayed at a place (sorry can't remember name, this is 1997) that was a big courtyard hotel/student housing apartments about a mile from the stadium. When we awoke at 7 am (for an afternoon game) we were greeted with the sounds of dozens of students in the courtyard making breakfast and setting up tents and a sound system. We rolled out of bed, got some eggs and had a Rocky Mountain Sunshine (Don't ask what was in it...but it was damn good). Keep in mind, we were all NE fans (even though my cousin played for CO).

After breakfast we showered, got dressed and returned to the open courtyard to find 300 new friends. 80% students. The party raged for hours in the pregame.

The cops walked through but I never saw them talk to anyone (expect friends). There was underage drinking, but it was managed by the group, (As it usually is) and the cops were there just as a presence.

When game time came, all 300 of us walked to the stadium, merging with thousands of others from parking lots, student housing and houses. It was pretty freaking cool...and every person had a beer in hand.

We tossed our cups in the trash cans as we entered the stadium...watched NE beat CO by 3. After the game we walked back to our building, partied for another hour, showered, changed and hit the boulder bars.

Nobody died, we didn't pass anyone laying in the gutter, nobody flipped cars, started fires or any other stupid crap. Truth is, everyone knows that you manage your group so it doesn't get ruined for all.

It was a blast and it can't possibly happen at the U because of all the rules.

 

[Gopherprof]

No, I'm not. Haskins had one winning conference season, 11-7 in 1989-90.



I'm not sure where you're getting your made-up data, but here are the actual figures:

Basketball: 9
Football: 5

If you extend just a few years further back, to 1967 when the football team won its last conference championship, the totals are 9 for basketball and 7 for football. Yes, "exponentially" more successful.

Please tell me you aren't seriously discounting the violated seasons....

 

[imthewalrus]

Please tell me you aren't seriously discounting the violated seasons....

The Men's Hoops Program was lucky that it didn't receive the death penalty for the sins of clem. Can you imagine what clem's record would have looked like IF he had been asked to coach with all the loss of scholarships, sanctions, recruiting restrictions...you know...the same penalties that Coach Monson had to put up with. haskins not only LOST all those seasons records...he also SCREWED the next coach going forward. There was a long period of time when the NCAA took their time to impose the near death on the U Men's Hoops Program...but, when they finally did, the sanctions and penalties extended another five years.

I'll always have good things to say about MONSON because he had to take on the IMPOSSIBLE situation of having the NCAA sanctions...loss of scholarship, recruiting restrictions, the chaos, the shame and guilt of the Men's Hoops Program for what haskins had done.

The Men's Hoops Program had BETTER remember where it is coming from and the new norwood had best not get too fancy with the moves it tries to make. The NEXT time the hoops program messes up...it will quite possibly be the LAST time it messes up for a VERY LONG TIME.

Just another reason why we need a FOOTBALL MAN in the Athletic Directors Office.

Football is the sport that needs the focus of the AD. It has the MOST up side potential and we have that nearly 300 million dollar stadium to anchor the U of M Sports Department and to be the crown jewel going forward.... And we need someone in charge of breathing life into our student section on Game Day Saturday...

; 0 )

 

[dpodoll68]

Please tell me you aren't seriously discounting the violated seasons....

Not discounting - eliminating. Accomplishments gained via cheating are not accomplishments at all. Those seasons don't count for anything.

 

[John Galt]

Not discounting - eliminating. Accomplishments gained via cheating are not accomplishments at all. Those seasons don't count for anything.

The vacated seasons absolutely count towards what is being discussed. Even though Clem's teams aren't in the record book, people watched some very good basketball teams with their own eyes, and it had and continues to have an impact on the perception of the basketball program vs. the football program.

 

[Gopherprof]

Not discounting - eliminating. Accomplishments gained via cheating are not accomplishments at all. Those seasons don't count for anything.

You are in the extreme minority with that position, and given that we're talking about the public perception of both teams, I'd say that matters.

Ask the average Gopher fan if those seasons "counted". I didn't even consider that's why your numbers were skewed initially, because it never crossed my mind that any Gopher fan would hold that position.

 

[Schnauzer]

It never crossed my mind that a Gopher fan would want to characterize what has been a mostly mediocre football program as something much worse than the reality. It never crossed my mind that any Gopher fan would hold that position. I always assumed those types of negative embellishments were something other rival fans would say about our program.

But, back to the matter at hand: what the majority of people have already said here... A great win loss record will help student attendance in any college football stadium for a single season but the poor game day atmosphere at TCF is lacking the things college kids want (tailgating, socializing, not being breathalyzed, etc.). This situation likely won't improve over the long term (able to withstand future mediocre W-L records) until or unless these problems are overcome.

The problem is much deeper than wins and losses.

I'll add one other thought: I have noticed in many instances both small scale or widespread, the tighter you police and lord over kids... the more likely they will grow a subconscious need to push back and when they do, it can be ugly. Hockey riots anyone?? What concerns me with this is if the day does arrive where the UofM kids are treated more like adults and allowed to have gameday tailgating on campus, private lot tailgating, etc... will we see incidents that will convince the jack booted administrators they were right to limit the fun to face painting all along? Oh well. Worry about that when/if the day comes, I guess.

 

[dpodoll68]

it never crossed my mind that any Gopher fan would hold that position

Most Gopher fans want to pretend those seasons were legitimate, because it makes the accomplishments of the basketball team appear to be less terrible. Unfortunately for your position, I have ethics. I will never apologize for being right, regardless of how "unpopular" my position might be.

 

[Gopherprof]

It never crossed my mind that a Gopher fan would want to characterize what has been a mostly mediocre football program as something much worse than the reality. It never crossed my mind that any Gopher fan would hold that position. I always assumed those types of negative embellishments were something other rival fans would say about our program.

This again?

The reality is that we're a bad Big Ten team. If you want to throw in our wins versus the MAC and the FCS, then maybe you can squint and see mediocre. But among our peers? We are not the norm. We are well below the norm (35% winning percentage in Big Ten play since 1970). I guess I don't see what your argument is. Do you deny that those numbers exist, or do you think 35% is somehow now average?

 

[Gopherprof]

Most Gopher fans want to pretend those seasons were legitimate, because it makes the accomplishments of the basketball team appear to be less terrible. Unfortunately for your position, I have ethics. I will never apologize for being right, regardless of how "unpopular" my position might be.

That's not unfortunate for my position. You have ethics, and that's good for you; but the discussion wasn't about whether or not you have ethics, it was about public perception of the success of each respective program, and in that context those seasons count.

 

[dpodoll68]

That's not unfortunate for my position. You have ethics, and that's good for you; but the discussion wasn't about whether or not you have ethics, it was about public perception of the success of each respective program, and in that context those seasons count.

Huh? Nothing I quoted and responded to had anything to do with public perception. You stated erroneous facts and used them to draw the (false) conclusion that the basketball team has been "exponentially" more successful than the football team. If your point was that the basketball team has been perceived to be "exponentially" more successful than the football team, you should've said so. That's an opinion (though one I disagree with) and it's impossible to comment on the factual validity of opinions.

 

[Gopherprof]

Huh? Nothing I quoted and responded to had anything to do with public perception. You stated erroneous facts and used them to draw the (false) conclusion that the basketball team has been "exponentially" more successful than the football team. If your point was that the basketball team has been perceived to be "exponentially" more successful than the football team, you should've said so. That's an opinion (though one I disagree with) and it's impossible to comment on the factual validity of opinions.

Nobody other than you and the NCAA would invalidate those wins when discussing Gopher basketball history, so to call them "erroneous facts" is misleading at best. Those games happened. We won those games. Almost everyone remembers it as such. You're being your typical hardcore literalist self, which is fine, but "reality" is far more fluid than you're wanting to acknowledge it. The tree fell and everyone heard it.

 

[CP Gopher]

Here's what the students need on game day:
1. A human snooze button to gently remind them every five minutes that it's time to wake up.
2. A free catered breakfast buffet at home.
3. A ride to the game in a minivan equipped with a video game console.
4. Pregame entertainment in a heated venue with free beer and an unlimited variety of games, music and NetFlix options.
5. Seats at the game in a heated section with cushioned individual chairs and free beer.
6. Adults assigned to let them know how important they are every five minutes.
7. Minivans to drive them back home to parties with free food and beer.

Am I missing anything?

I forgot one. They need a guarantee that the Gophers will win.

 

[dpodoll68]

Nobody other than you and the NCAA would invalidate those wins when discussing Gopher basketball history, so to call them "erroneous facts" is misleading at best. Those games happened. We won those games. Almost everyone remembers it as such. You're being your typical hardcore literalist self, which is fine, but "reality" is far more fluid than you're wanting to acknowledge it. The tree fell and everyone heard it.

Not misleading at all. Look anywhere you want and tell me where the vacated seasons are credited to Clem. You won't find any, other than biased Gopher fans' minds. It's nothing about being literal, it's that you can't give him credit for something accomplished via cheating. Had he been playing by the rules, it's impossible to determine how those seasons would've gone, so they get tossed out altogether. By your logic, Ben Johnson is a former world record-holder in the 100 m, and Lance Armstrong is the winner of 7 Tours de France.

 

[gophmeister]

So, gophmeister, are you saying that Coach Kill is ultimately responsible for improving the student section? Improved play would have to help, I am sure...

; 0 )

No. I don't think in the near term anyone should be assigned blame for things that are beyond their control. If in 4-5 years the team is doing poorly or a successful team is playing in front of empty seats, then we start that discussion. But if you want me to assign responsibilities Coach Kill is responsible for coaching the team and whoever is in charge of selling tickets in responsible for student section.

 

[Schnauzer]

This again?

The reality is that we're a bad Big Ten team. If you want to throw in our wins versus the MAC and the FCS, then maybe you can squint and see mediocre. But among our peers? We are not the norm. We are well below the norm (35% winning percentage in Big Ten play since 1970). I guess I don't see what your argument is. Do you deny that those numbers exist, or do you think 35% is somehow now average?

Interesting that the one post of mine that you did NOT comment on was the step by step recount of Gopher Football results IN CONFERENCE through the decades after you had declared "doormat" status for "decades". For a response to your most recent falsehood, see my earlier reply.

 

[gophmeister]

The problem was that clem ended up with perhaps the biggest cheating scandal in history.

To that point. You might want to read about what went on at UNC-Chapel Hill. That makes Clem and Ganglehoff look like amateurs.