Sid: Fleck "We have nine total scholarship seniors, which is not a lot."

[short ornery norwegian]

Anytime a program changes coaches, there is going to be at least some turnover. And the on-field product also goes through a transition phase with a change to a new coaching staff, new system, etc.

the only way to truly compare the results under the new staff would be to go back in time, keep Claeys as coach, let him finish out the recruiting class, and then coach the season using his coaches and his system. Obviously, that is impossible until someone invents time travel. (not to mention all the time paradoxes that it would create.....)

Bottom line, anyone who says "Claeys would have done better than Fleck" OR "Claeys would have done worse than Fleck" is just guessing. It's impossible to prove one way or another.

Ultimately, it all comes down to faith. Do you have faith in Fleck and his approach? I'm not a fan - but if his approach produces results, I'll live with it. I wish he would just shut up and coach, but that's not who he is.

and I keep hearing about how improved the recruiting is. Forgive me if I wait to see how these players actually perform in a D1 game before I start singing their praises. I've seen Gopher fans over-rate recruits for decades, so I'm skeptical when I hear about how this new recruit is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

[PMWinSTP]

Player turnovers are a big part of college football. Reality bites hard on kids coming to college with high expectations.

In HS, kids are pumped up by almost everyone being the star athlete. They come to college, and they may realize they are par or sub-par for the course. Everyone else may be faster, better, stronger. Their star ratings may be over-inflated depending on where they came from.

Some realize if they want playing time, they need to transfer to another program. I don't think it is necessarily all a matter of running kids out of the program. It is a two-way street between the players and coaches.

Then, there is the matter of career ending injuries, homesickness, and off-field disciplinary issues. Some may find college a struggle academically.

These are seventeen, eighteen, and nineteen year-old kids leaving home for the first time. They may not have the physical and mental maturity level to handle what is in front of them as Freshmen.

That is where red shirting pays dividends from a developmental standpoint. I can think of some former Gopher football players who could have benefited from red shirting.

For some, going to a lower level program may fit them better. They may even thrive, and who knows have a better chance of getting drafted (if they developed to be great players) than being buried deep in the depth chart of a P5 school.

Agree. The point is that it happens with almost all D1 FB programs and what is happening here is no different, so don't portray it something unusual.

 

[hungan1]

Coach speak is smokescreen.

 

[BarnBurner]

You really think there are people on here that defend Claeys in the same manner that people worship Fleck? Seriously? I know you're firmly on the Fleck bandwagon, but Claeys, in the middle of his first year (a much more successful year 1 than Fleck) was constantly the subject of job security.

At best, the Claeyists, were in the camp of "he won 8/9 games, that's enough to keep his job". Before the win against NW at the endish of the year, Claeys was not popular on here - - even amongst people you now refer to as Claeyists.

Your post is a great example of this. I actually defended Fleck in my post. He did coachspeak, they all do it. Yet, your reaction is to take that truth and argue something completely different. I like Fleck, but how some of you treat him/any discussion of him is absolutely nauseating.

We have a winner.

weather dude

 

[BarnBurner]

Anytime a program changes coaches, there is going to be at least some turnover. And the on-field product also goes through a transition phase with a change to a new coaching staff, new system, etc.

the only way to truly compare the results under the new staff would be to go back in time, keep Claeys as coach, let him finish out the recruiting class, and then coach the season using his coaches and his system. Obviously, that is impossible until someone invents time travel. (not to mention all the time paradoxes that it would create.....)

Bottom line, anyone who says "Claeys would have done better than Fleck" OR "Claeys would have done worse than Fleck" is just guessing. It's impossible to prove one way or another.

Ultimately, it all comes down to faith. Do you have faith in Fleck and his approach? I'm not a fan - but if his approach produces results, I'll live with it. I wish he would just shut up and coach, but that's not who he is.

and I keep hearing about how improved the recruiting is. Forgive me if I wait to see how these players actually perform in a D1 game before I start singing their praises. I've seen Gopher fans over-rate recruits for decades, so I'm skeptical when I hear about how this new recruit is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Spot.

On.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Year one of Fleck is not comparable to year one of Claeys. Even Claeys said it was the 6th year of the program when discussing expectations at the beginning of the 2016 season. Why some on here cannot grasp this, I still don't understand. Claeys was popular with plenty on this site, the same ones who are consistently nothing but negative when discussing Fleck.

Holy lord, you are incapable of having a rationale conversation re: PJ Fleck.

Honestly, go back and read our back and forth.

My Post: I said that PJ is lowering expectations, it's not 100% truthful, it's just coachspeak, they ALL do it, I don't blame him for doing it.

Your Response: Claeys returned way more talent than PJ >>>>>>>>>Do you see how this has nothing to do with what I posted? It's a completely different argument that you feel obligated to shoehorn into this conversation because you are hell bent on defending PJ.


This Fleck stuff is crazy.

 

[GFBfan]

Holy lord, you are incapable of having a rationale conversation re: PJ Fleck.

Honestly, go back and read our back and forth.

My Post: I said that PJ is lowering expectations, it's not 100% truthful, it's just coachspeak, they ALL do it, I don't blame him for doing it.

Your Response: Claeys returned way more talent than PJ >>>>>>>>>Do you see how this has nothing to do with what I posted? It's a completely different argument that you feel obligated to shoehorn into this conversation because you are hell bent on defending PJ.


This Fleck stuff is crazy.

He's approaching JB worship status.

 

[PMWinSTP]

Holy lord, you are incapable of having a rationale conversation re: PJ Fleck.

Honestly, go back and read our back and forth.

My Post: I said that PJ is lowering expectations, it's not 100% truthful, it's just coachspeak, they ALL do it, I don't blame him for doing it.

Your Response: Claeys returned way more talent than PJ >>>>>>>>>Do you see how this has nothing to do with what I posted? It's a completely different argument that you feel obligated to shoehorn into this conversation because you are hell bent on defending PJ.


This Fleck stuff is crazy.

It's his even-present pivot and qualify method...

 

[scools12]

My Post: I said that PJ is lowering expectations, it's not 100% truthful, it's just coachspeak, they ALL do it, I don't blame him for doing it.

There are those on this board who do blame him for going with coach speak. It started in this thread with the #2 post.

The obsession with criticizing all things Fleck by the same handful of posters is just as nauseating as you find the defense of all things Fleck by some others.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Holy lord, you are incapable of having a rationale conversation re: PJ Fleck.

Honestly, go back and read our back and forth.

My Post: I said that PJ is lowering expectations, it's not 100% truthful, it's just coachspeak, they ALL do it, I don't blame him for doing it.

Your Response: Claeys returned way more talent than PJ >>>>>>>>>Do you see how this has nothing to do with what I posted? It's a completely different argument that you feel obligated to shoehorn into this conversation because you are hell bent on defending PJ.


This Fleck stuff is crazy.

You were the one who brought up Claeys record in his first year, I just responded to it. As for the lowering expectations portion of your post, I agree. Kill did it pretty much every year he was here.

I don't see anything wrong with defending Fleck for winning 5 games in his first year with a bunch of FCS talent on offense. I'm not saying this is you, but most of the posters who jump all over Fleck every chance they get, several who have posted in this thread, were also the biggest Claeys supporters. They were also the same people who demanded 8+ wins from our loaded roster last year...

Even PMWinSTP repeated at nauseam how the BoR were going to fire Kaler and Coyle in order to keep Claeys. Which is still one of the most hilarious and delusional takes I've ever read on this board.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

I think its because the Fleckstians would like to see teams that actually win games and not be just competitive. But hey, we've gone 50 years without a big ten title, why not go another 50 as long as we're competitive.

I wasn’t sure about Claeys as a HC. I mean, how could anyone be sure without a track record? There were legitimate concerns about recruiting decisions, and some in-game stuff (which PJ gets a pass on by some). The future was cloudy at best under Claeys, but IMO could have gone either way. His staff knew defense and that’s the foundation of any good team. Keep incrementally improving and the recruits will come.

Look at the success Wisconsin is having on the trail. Their HC ought to have an ASMR insomnia channel. He is not dynamic or a good speaker. However, he has a good staff and the fact they’ve been relatively successful on the field is starting to pay off on the recruiting trail.

Imagine a future where Claeys loses some weight (he would probably look a lot like Jim Fassel), starts drinking Red Bull, and the team incrementally improved defensively. Bring in better offensive coaches and things may have evolved in a positive manner. An alternate and slower alternative to the Wisconsin model. Boring, but effective.

It’s all an alternate timeline at this point.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

I think its because the Fleckstians would like to see teams that actually win games and not be just competitive. But hey, we've gone 50 years without a big ten title, why not go another 50 as long as we're competitive.

So if the goal is to get to new levels, we should not be excited if Fleck has a 9 win season, wins 31 games in four years, or goes to 5 straight bowl games, because that is the level of mediocrity we are hoping to leave behind, right?

 

[BarnBurner]

So if the goal is to get to new levels, we should not be excited if Fleck has a 9 win season, wins 31 games in four years, or goes to 5 straight bowl games, because that is the level of mediocrity we are hoping to leave behind, right?

Correct.

But we need to be patient........

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

There are those on this board who do blame him for going with coach speak. It started in this thread with the #2 post.

The obsession with criticizing all things Fleck by the same handful of posters is just as nauseating as you find the defense of all things Fleck by some others.

That's cool. I wasn't ragging on him and he responded to me because he takes any discussion of PJ as a grave insult.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

You were the one who brought up Claeys record in his first year, I just responded to it. As for the lowering expectations portion of your post, I agree. Kill did it pretty much every year he was here.

I don't see anything wrong with defending Fleck for winning 5 games in his first year with a bunch of FCS talent on offense. I'm not saying this is you, but most of the posters who jump all over Fleck every chance they get, several who have posted in this thread, were also the biggest Claeys supporters. They were also the same people who demanded 8+ wins from our loaded roster last year...

Even PMWinSTP repeated at nauseam how the BoR were going to fire Kaler and Coyle in order to keep Claeys. Which is still one of the most hilarious and delusional takes I've ever read on this board.

No, I didn't. Your need to defend PJ has you seeing things that aren't there.

Below is my post that set you off. I believe I referred to the Kill/Claeys run as a successful run at the U (for us). Is it no longer universally accepted that Kill/Claeys was better than Brew? Really?

"Obviously PJ ran off some kids from the programs to make the SR class as small as it is. I don't blame him for it, all coaches do it.
Obviously PJ is setting expectations as low as possible and somewhat pointing to a situation that he created as a reason for it. All coaches do it.

It's just annoying that the Fleckophiles on here can't see. It's the same trick all coaches pull, even Kill. It was a bit easier for Kill because it was more tethered to reality (he was following Brew and Fleck is following a successful run at the U (for us))."

I never said that there is anything wrong with you defending Fleck. It's the fact that the Fleck supporters seem to find insults where they don't exist. Any discussion of Fleck that is anything but 100% on board, triggers the Fleck crowd. I literally was making an excuse for him saying that he only has 9 scholarship players and qualified it by saying that it's universal in coaching.

Yet, here we are.

 

[caliGopher]

Which players did he 'run off' ended up at an equal or better school than Minnesota? None of them. But he ran off so much talent because of his system...

The Gophers do only have 9 scholarship SRs on offense/defense. I guess we should drastically increase our expectations based on a scholarship long snapper and kicker.

So comprehension isn’t your strong suit. I have no problem he ran them off. His choice. And you are right, none of them ended up at a power 5 schools.

They were on the roster and they are no longer because PJ Fleck chose not to keep them. None were likely to contribute. All true.

Whining about a lack of Seniors is disingenuous when you chose to jettison them yourself.


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[Some Day...Maybe]

So if the goal is to get to new levels, we should not be excited if Fleck has a 9 win season, wins 31 games in four years, or goes to 5 straight bowl games, because that is the level of mediocrity we are hoping to leave behind, right?

Right.


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[Some Day...Maybe]

We ALL understand it takes time. All I hear from PJ is not now....I need 3 maybe 4 years before you can start to evaluate our program. We are now in year one. On his timetable he will have $14 million dollars plus another contract extension before anyone argues he's smoke and mirrors. If he is in over his head he bought 3 free years before anybody even thinks of holding him accountable.

He had an awesome season at WMU. Nothing I saw last year tells me it's repeatable. Nothing I hear this year tells me it'll be different than 5 wins again. That's one side. Then he had a great recruiting class last year and is assembling another one this year. Definitely, another factor and reason for optimism but not a guaranty. He has not landed a quarterback in three classes that anybody else was upset they lost. Vic was a LB when he was highly sought after by the Michigan's of the world.

I'd just like to hear less about his reasons why we are not going to win anytime soon. Tell me you are a miracle worker and we are going to win now. Believe in yourself, your coaching ability. The vision of becoming Alabama, the vision of needing to expand seating capacity is a long ways away...They are so many steps that need to happen to achieve that...like winning more than we lose this year. "6 head coaches in 8 years" equals, Just keep paying me and we'll get this done. I have a dream. How long until it's don't tell me...show me?

The guy has coached here 1 year. 1 year. Hasn’t even started season 2 yet. Yet you’re so worried about years 3 and 4.


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[Pete smith]

So comprehension isn’t your strong suit. I have no problem he ran them off. His choice. And you are right, none of them ended up at a power 5 schools.

They were on the roster and they are no longer because PJ Fleck chose not to keep them. None were likely to contribute. All true.

Whining about a lack of Seniors is disingenuous when you chose to jettison them yourself.

Still waiting to see a list of the playerPJ eliminated from the roster. Oh, that’s right some players left on their own. Most were selfish in that they quit on their teammates. Good riddance. But they left on their own. Can you imagine the tenor of the Wis/Ia/Iol recruiters telling recruits, don’t go to the Gophers, PJ Fleck will send you packing if you don’t .....
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Still waiting to see a list of the players that PJ eliminated from the roster. Oh, that’s right some players left on their own. Most were selfish and quit on their teammates. Good riddance. But they left on their own. Can you imagine the tenor of hey Big Ten recruiters —— don’t go to Minn., PJ Fleck will send you packing when things go wrong.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Still waiting to see a list of the players that PJ eliminated from the roster. Oh, that’s right some players left on their own. Most were selfish and quit on their teammates. Good riddance. But they left on their own. Can you imagine the tenor of hey Big Ten recruiters —— don’t go to Minn., PJ Fleck will send you packing when things go wrong.

That’s awfully harsh. If you know the backstories on all the transfers do tell. You legitimately believe coaches don’t subtly or not so subtly urge players to hit the road? Sometimes it’s just a poor fit. Even PJ is self aware enough to know he and his culture are not for everyone.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

So comprehension isn’t your strong suit. I have no problem he ran them off. His choice. And you are right, none of them ended up at a power 5 schools.

They were on the roster and they are no longer because PJ Fleck chose not to keep them. None were likely to contribute. All true.

Whining about a lack of Seniors is disingenuous when you chose to jettison them yourself.


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How did PJ run these players off? I'll wait for your undeniable proof and explanation.

 

[GFBfan]

How did PJ run these players off? I'll wait for your undeniable proof and explanation.

Undeniable proof could only come from the players who left and or the coaches.
But it doesn't take much thought to think it didn't happen based on some events, like
suspending players for games, not giving them much of a chance to contribute, passing over them for other players that the coaches liked better. All of those things happened last year with the players who are no longer with the team. Then from there, those players decided that playing for the U of M and PJ was not in their best interest and decided to move on to other schools. Most of them had already used a redshirt season, so to avoid having to sit out a second one they went the FCS route. Don't know if they had any P5 opportunities, but can see why they went that route over going to a P5 and sitting out again.
You may not consider that "running a player off" but it is. It happens at every school and as others have stated, especially when a new coach comes in. It's allowed PJ to be able to plan to recruit bigger classes and to turn over the roster a little quicker than if the players had stayed and finished out their eligibility.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

No, I didn't. Your need to defend PJ has you seeing things that aren't there.

Below is my post that set you off. I believe I referred to the Kill/Claeys run as a successful run at the U (for us). Is it no longer universally accepted that Kill/Claeys was better than Brew? Really?

"Obviously PJ ran off some kids from the programs to make the SR class as small as it is. I don't blame him for it, all coaches do it.
Obviously PJ is setting expectations as low as possible and somewhat pointing to a situation that he created as a reason for it. All coaches do it.

It's just annoying that the Fleckophiles on here can't see. It's the same trick all coaches pull, even Kill. It was a bit easier for Kill because it was more tethered to reality (he was following Brew and Fleck is following a successful run at the U (for us))."

I never said that there is anything wrong with you defending Fleck. It's the fact that the Fleck supporters seem to find insults where they don't exist. Any discussion of Fleck that is anything but 100% on board, triggers the Fleck crowd. I literally was making an excuse for him saying that he only has 9 scholarship players and qualified it by saying that it's universal in coaching.

Yet, here we are.

What set me off? When did I say Kill/Claeys wasn't more successful than Brew? I used 'claeysist' because you used 'fleckophile'. Why are supporters of a coach who's been here for one year constantly called names as if it's a bad thing to support the current coach? Why does saying anything positive for the current coach trigger the anti-Fleck crowd?

I don't really disagree with much of what you posted. I just used one of your posts to go after the constant negativity from the same posters over and over again on this board.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Undeniable proof could only come from the players who left and or the coaches.
But it doesn't take much thought to think it didn't happen based on some events, like
suspending players for games, not giving them much of a chance to contribute, passing over them for other players that the coaches liked better. All of those things happened last year with the players who are no longer with the team. Then from there, those players decided that playing for the U of M and PJ was not in their best interest and decided to move on to other schools. Most of them had already used a redshirt season, so to avoid having to sit out a second one they went the FCS route. Don't know if they had any P5 opportunities, but can see why they went that route over going to a P5 and sitting out again.
You may not consider that "running a player off" but it is. It happens at every school and as others have stated, especially when a new coach comes in. It's allowed PJ to be able to plan to recruit bigger classes and to turn over the roster a little quicker than if the players had stayed and finished out their eligibility.

Which players that left didn't have much of a chance to contribute? I remember most, if not all of them getting many chances.

 

[GFBfan]

Which players that left didn't have much of a chance to contribute? I remember most, if not all of them getting many chances.

Hunter Register, Melvin Holland Jr., Everett Williams, Jaylen Waters, Drew Hmielewski(not a transfer, just decided to concentrate on baseball), Mark Williams

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Hunter Register, Melvin Holland Jr., Everett Williams, Jaylen Waters, Drew Hmielewski(not a transfer, just decided to concentrate on baseball), Mark Williams

Hmielewski and Mark Williams had plenty of chances at WR. Williams even started two games. The others barely played under Claeys/Kill so I'm not sure how that's PJs fault?

 

[Hockeytown]

What set me off? When did I say Kill/Claeys wasn't more successful than Brew? I used 'claeysist' because you used 'fleckophile'. Why are supporters of a coach who's been here for one year constantly called names as if it's a bad thing to support the current coach? Why does saying anything positive for the current coach trigger the anti-Fleck crowd?

I don't really disagree with much of what you posted. I just used one of your posts to go after the constant negativity from the same posters over and over again on this board.

Gopher football has been mediocre to terrible for 50 years - I wouldn't waste time parsing out which coaches were better than others. 50 years of slurrystore contents.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

What set me off? When did I say Kill/Claeys wasn't more successful than Brew? I used 'claeysist' because you used 'fleckophile'. Why are supporters of a coach who's been here for one year constantly called names as if it's a bad thing to support the current coach? Why does saying anything positive for the current coach trigger the anti-Fleck crowd?

I don't really disagree with much of what you posted. I just used one of your posts to go after the constant negativity from the same posters over and over again on this board.

You didn't say that Kill/Claeys weren't more successful that Brew. However, my statement of that fact was the only possible thing a Fleckophile could have conceivably twisted into an insult against Fleck. The rest of my post was pretty much pro-Fleck (that statement was a neutral and observable fact).

As far as Fleckophiles, I don't use that term for people who support Fleck. There are plenty of people on this board who support Fleck, but can still have an honest conversation about Gopher football. I use that term for the people on this board who aren't even really able to say "yes, we have more than 9 seniors on scholarship". I use it for people who somehow shoehorn every conversation into some weird bash on previous regimes (all while running from being compared to those regimes in terms of W/L). There are certain posters on this board that seem much more fans of PJ than fans of the Gophers.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Hmielewski and Mark Williams had plenty of chances at WR. Williams even started two games. The others barely played under Claeys/Kill so I'm not sure how that's PJs fault?

I actually don't think Hmielewski was one. I think there were some injury things and he decided to go the baseball route.

But the other people. . . this is how it works. I don't blame PJ, at all. Everyone does it, but you bury the people on the depth chart and then have a very frank conversation with them. I think we will see a decent chunk of the RS JR class doing the same thing.

Kill did this too. There wasn't some spotlight where Kill came out and said "we decided to move on from so and so". The players were just buried on the depth chart/would be buried on the depth chart and transferred out the following year.

 

[GFBfan]

Hmielewski and Mark Williams had plenty of chances at WR. Williams even started two games. The others barely played under Claeys/Kill so I'm not sure how that's PJs fault?

Of the two I thought Williams showed promise in the little he did play or was targeted in the passing game, he seemed to get seperation. Since he was new to the position, I felt he would turn into a good WR before his time was up. The spring must not have gone well for him, which is too bad.
As Bob pointed out Drew may have hung it up do to other reasons.
And here is a reason you get called a Fleckophile.
In Post 111, you asked CaliG how PJ ran players off the team
Post 112 I responded with the ways he did it, even said that all coaches do this. Didn't blame him for anything nor rip on him.
Post 114 you then wanted to know which players
Post 115 I gave you a list of some
Then here you have to bring up Claeys/Kill and defend PJ
at no time did I say it was his fault but you can't help yourself as being a protector of all things PJ.