Sid: Fleck "We have nine total scholarship seniors, which is not a lot."

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Obviously PJ ran off some kids from the programs to make the SR class as small as it is. I don't blame him for it, all coaches do it.
Obviously PJ is setting expectations as low as possible and somewhat pointing to a situation that he created as a reason for it. All coaches do it.

It's just annoying that the Fleckophiles on here can't see. It's the same trick all coaches pull, even Kill. It was a bit easier for Kill because it was more tethered to reality (he was following Brew and Fleck is following a successful run at the U (for us)).
 

This is an entertaining thread, lots of good back and forth...love the passion! First, all coaches do this woe is me schtick, Kill, Holtz, PJ, etc. and that's just the Gophers! (Brew didn't but people took him literally as Rose Bowl year one and broke a lot of hearts. I don't recall Wacker doing it though?) Second, you can't give him a pass if he says things that people find are not true. I'm sure he could take the heat. Personally I think he's doing it to give himself time and he knows the team is not there yet, that's ok in my opinion. I would respect him if he just said so but I think he's too proud and goal oriented to do that. Plus when/if he gets it turned around he will look better. I do like his talk of winning titles but at the same time it does set him up for criticism.
 

GFBfan said:
No that was a good win. Team played well and the coaches actually called plays to take advantage of what was being given to them.
Can’t say the same in the last two games though.
Your response would seem to indicate that you were ok with how we played and coached those games.


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Or the game before...the two RBs for Mich each had more rush yards than Gophs in total.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Obviously PJ ran off some kids from the programs to make the SR class as small as it is. I don't blame him for it, all coaches do it.
Obviously PJ is setting expectations as low as possible and somewhat pointing to a situation that he created as a reason for it. All coaches do it.

It's just annoying that the Fleckophiles on here can't see. It's the same trick all coaches pull, even Kill. It was a bit easier for Kill because it was more tethered to reality (he was following Brew and Fleck is following a successful run at the U (for us)).
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It’s amazing the Claeysists can’t see how bad the talent was on this team last year in addition to the lack of depth. Yet they still almost made a bowl game.
 


How hard do you guys think it is for Johnnyboy to be reading this thread and not being able to respond?
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
It’s amazing the Claeysists can’t see how bad the talent was on this team last year in addition to the lack of depth. Yet they still almost made a bowl game.
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It is also amazing that it doesn't concern the Fleckstians that some past coaches could field competitive teams without top level talent. I guess it depends on perspective.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
It’s amazing the Claeysists can’t see how bad the talent was on this team last year in addition to the lack of depth. Yet they still almost made a bowl game.
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PJ is a miracle worker! All hail the great PJ as he took a team with the talent to win 9 games, SRs graduated and a few left the team for various reasons, brought in his own guys and turned them into a 5 win team, coming oh so close to a bowl game, and he got paid quite well to do that. WOW.
 

Word said:
How hard do you guys think it is for Johnnyboy to be reading this thread and not being able to respond?
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Or Spoofin, both had a knack for turning it back into their favorite discussions (or complaints depending upon your point of view).
 



Let's hope that the recruiting in the next few cycles hold up, and that the high 3-Star and the 4-Star recruits start to show better results in the Win column.

There was talent in the Kill/Claeys era as the 9-4 record in 2016 demonstrated. However, there isn't enough and there is not enough depth. Things had to change even if Claeys was still the coach.

Coaches are going to be criticized. That is the nature of the beast. We are pouring millions into the athletic endeavors. I hope PJ Fleck has thick skin.
 

hungan1 said:
Let's put some meat into this discussion:

View attachment 5500

The 2015 Class is disastrous. Fourteen out of twenty four players are no longer with the team. Eleven are due to transfers for various reasons including three expulsions, lack of playing time, not buying in. Two - Nick Connelly and Ted Stieber are medical/injury related. One - Ace Rogers, his eligibility clock ran out.

We haven't even touch the 2014 Class with players like Jeff Jones, Gaelin Elmore, Melvin Holland Jr, etc... leaving the team.

The plus side is they opened up scholarship slots for 2018 and 2019.

There is a reason the Gophers went 5-7 last season. Losing so many would be seniors, injuries, and having a very thin and fragile offensive line compounded the problems.

So, complainers. Complain all you want. The status quo is what it is. But, even with a lot of inexperience going into the 2018 campaign there are glimpses of hope with the talent level that the Gopher acquired in the last recruiting cycle and this cycle.
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...and yet PJ focuses on "only 9 seniors."
I agree with your post. Focus on what we do have and what is being built. Show us glimpses of what the future holds not what we don't currently have.
 

hungan1 said:
Let's put some meat into this discussion:

View attachment 5500

The 2015 Class is disastrous. Fourteen out of twenty four players are no longer with the team. Eleven are due to transfers for various reasons including three expulsions, lack of playing time, not buying in. Two - Nick Connelly and Ted Stieber are medical/injury related. One - Ace Rogers, his eligibility clock ran out.

We haven't even touch the 2014 Class with players like Jeff Jones, Gaelin Elmore, Melvin Holland Jr, etc... leaving the team.

The plus side is they opened up scholarship slots for 2018 and 2019.

There is a reason the Gophers went 5-7 last season. Losing so many would be seniors, injuries, and having a very thin and fragile offensive line compounded the problems.

So, complainers. Complain all you want. The status quo is what it is. But, even with a lot of inexperience going into the 2018 campaign there are glimpses of hope with the talent level that the Gopher acquired in the last recruiting cycle and this cycle.
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For fun I went and looked at Fleck's attrition at WMU. Does not look too much different. If my math is correct, he had 11 left from his 2013 class on the 2016 roster.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Obviously PJ ran off some kids from the programs to make the SR class as small as it is. I don't blame him for it, all coaches do it.
Obviously PJ is setting expectations as low as possible and somewhat pointing to a situation that he created as a reason for it. All coaches do it.

It's just annoying that the Fleckophiles on here can't see. It's the same trick all coaches pull, even Kill. It was a bit easier for Kill because it was more tethered to reality (he was following Brew and Fleck is following a successful run at the U (for us)).
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It's also annoying that many seem to not understand that most coaches do this. Some people seem to think this is unique to Fleck.

The season can't come fast enough. 107 days!
 



Word said:
Ok - so I haven't really been tracking this argument between you guys. Is the argument that PJ says there are 9 scholarship seniors, but there are actually 11? And that 2 of those 11 are special teams players so PJ doesn't include them in his totals?
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Correct. And, there may indeed only be 9 by the time the season rolls around but as of today there are 11. It’s NOT a huge deal but personally I find his tendency to exaggerate at times distracting. All forgiven if he can put a good product on the field, of course...tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies...
 

GFBfan said:
PJ is a miracle worker! All hail the great PJ as he took a team with the talent to win 9 games, SRs graduated and a few left the team for various reasons, brought in his own guys and turned them into a 5 win team, coming oh so close to a bowl game, and he got paid quite well to do that. WOW.
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Right, the 2017 team was exactly the same as the 2016 team, how could I forget?????
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Correct. And, there may indeed only be 9 by the time the season rolls around but as of today there are 11. It’s NOT a huge deal but personally I find his tendency to exaggerate at times distracting. All forgiven if he can put a good product on the field, of course...tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies...
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And yet you obsessively post about it.
 


I bet if we analyze every recruiting class in the B1G, I won't be surprised if we will see similar patterns of attrition - Medical, not a good fit, not enough playing time, etc... It is not unusual. You hear similar coach speak from other coaches. Every coach deal with it in their own style.

The one thing I like about the current coaches is that they are aggressively recruiters and they are not afraid to go against the big boys. Jason Bargy just flat out surprised me. Allen Trieu and Steve Wilfong in their podcast acknowledged that PJ Fleck is an effective recruiter. He still has to fend off poachers.http://www.forums.gopherhole.com/boards/showthread.php?82195-Notorius-B1G-Podcast-May-10-2018-Things-looking-up-in-the-Twin-Cities

Let's hope that the current staff can coach like Kill, Claeys and Sawvel. Not so much like Limegrover or Brian Anderson.

The part that is hard to take is when players have to quit for repeated injuries or concussions. I am worried about Shannon Brooks with all the injuries that he has gone through. Maybe, by him helping as a student assistant to the coaches while he is healing may propel him into coaching. He may be done playing football.
 

Looking at the helpful spreadsheets posted - how can net transfers be brought up to something close to zero?

Seems like there's a lot of our recruits washing out and transferring down, but we're getting about 1 guy a season who didn't get to start at Alabama or OSU or something. Almost never a grad transfer. Increased activity on the transfer market (especially at QB) would yield a more mature roster in the future.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Obviously PJ ran off some kids from the programs to make the SR class as small as it is. I don't blame him for it, all coaches do it.
Obviously PJ is setting expectations as low as possible and somewhat pointing to a situation that he created as a reason for it. All coaches do it.

It's just annoying that the Fleckophiles on here can't see. It's the same trick all coaches pull, even Kill. It was a bit easier for Kill because it was more tethered to reality (he was following Brew and Fleck is following a successful run at the U (for us)).
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Good take. I take every coach/manager with the whole shaker full of salt, especially in the modern media environment. Curious to see how we do this season. I wasn't optimistic going into last season given the gigantic question mark at QB (which would have been there regardless of who was coaching). We have the same question mark this season, so I'm about in the same place. Hopefully the line play on both sides of the ball improves.
 


WoodburyTim said:
It is also amazing that it doesn't concern the Fleckstians that some past coaches could field competitive teams without top level talent. I guess it depends on perspective.
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I think its because the Fleckstians would like to see teams that actually win games and not be just competitive. But hey, we've gone 50 years without a big ten title, why not go another 50 as long as we're competitive.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
It’s amazing the Claeysists can’t see how bad the talent was on this team last year in addition to the lack of depth. Yet they still almost made a bowl game.
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You really think there are people on here that defend Claeys in the same manner that people worship Fleck? Seriously? I know you're firmly on the Fleck bandwagon, but Claeys, in the middle of his first year (a much more successful year 1 than Fleck) was constantly the subject of job security.

At best, the Claeyists, were in the camp of "he won 8/9 games, that's enough to keep his job". Before the win against NW at the endish of the year, Claeys was not popular on here - - even amongst people you now refer to as Claeyists.

Your post is a great example of this. I actually defended Fleck in my post. He did coachspeak, they all do it. Yet, your reaction is to take that truth and argue something completely different. I like Fleck, but how some of you treat him/any discussion of him is absolutely nauseating.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
You really think there are people on here that defend Claeys in the same manner that people worship Fleck? Seriously? I know you're firmly on the Fleck bandwagon, but Claeys, in the middle of his first year (a much more successful year 1 than Fleck) was constantly the subject of job security.

At best, the Claeyists, were in the camp of "he won 8/9 games, that's enough to keep his job". Before the win against NW at the endish of the year, Claeys was not popular on here - - even amongst people you now refer to as Claeyists.

Your post is a great example of this. I actually defended Fleck in my post. He did coachspeak, they all do it. Yet, your reaction is to take that truth and argue something completely different. I like Fleck, but how some of you treat him/any discussion of him is absolutely nauseating.
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Year one of Fleck is not comparable to year one of Claeys. Even Claeys said it was the 6th year of the program when discussing expectations at the beginning of the 2016 season. Why some on here cannot grasp this, I still don't understand. Claeys was popular with plenty on this site, the same ones who are consistently nothing but negative when discussing Fleck.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
You really think there are people on here that defend Claeys in the same manner that people worship Fleck? Seriously? I know you're firmly on the Fleck bandwagon, but Claeys, in the middle of his first year (a much more successful year 1 than Fleck) was constantly the subject of job security.

At best, the Claeyists, were in the camp of "he won 8/9 games, that's enough to keep his job". Before the win against NW at the endish of the year, Claeys was not popular on here - - even amongst people you now refer to as Claeyists.

Your post is a great example of this. I actually defended Fleck in my post. He did coachspeak, they all do it. Yet, your reaction is to take that truth and argue something completely different. I like Fleck, but how some of you treat him/any discussion of him is absolutely nauseating.
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I believe there is a large number of "head in the sand" Claeys supporters that deny there was an issue with Claeys continuing to be head coach.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Year one of Fleck is not comparable to year one of Claeys. Even Claeys said it was the 6th year of the program when discussing expectations at the beginning of the 2016 season. Why some on here cannot grasp this, I still don't understand. Claeys was popular with plenty on this site, the same ones who are consistently nothing but negative when discussing Fleck.
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Thanks for proving his point

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=452XjnaHr1A
 

MennoSota said:
You're argument is a red herring. PJ got rid of the players. He can stop whining about the number of seniors he got rid of as though the loss of seniors is the reason MN football will be bottom dwelling in 2018. This years record is entirely on Fleck. He has no one else to blame.
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PJ got rid of all the players who were facing expulsion and who got hurt prior to PJ arriving?

That's a really sound argument from you.
Did you work on that one for a long time?
 

Face The Facts said:
PJ got rid of all the players who were facing expulsion and who got hurt prior to PJ arriving?

That's a really sound argument from you.
Did you work on that one for a long time?
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Interesting excuse you have created for PJ.
 


fmlizard said:
Looking at the helpful spreadsheets posted - how can net transfers be brought up to something close to zero?

Seems like there's a lot of our recruits washing out and transferring down, but we're getting about 1 guy a season who didn't get to start at Alabama or OSU or something. Almost never a grad transfer. Increased activity on the transfer market (especially at QB) would yield a more mature roster in the future.
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Player turnovers are a big part of college football. Reality bites hard on kids coming to college with high expectations.

In HS, kids are pumped up by almost everyone being the star athlete. They come to college, and they may realize they are par or sub-par for the course. Everyone else may be faster, better, stronger. Their star ratings may be over-inflated depending on where they came from.

Some realize if they want playing time, they need to transfer to another program. I don't think it is necessarily all a matter of running kids out of the program. It is a two-way street between the players and coaches.

Then, there is the matter of career ending injuries, homesickness, and off-field disciplinary issues. Some may find college a struggle academically.

These are seventeen, eighteen, and nineteen year-old kids leaving home for the first time. They may not have the physical and mental maturity level to handle what is in front of them as Freshmen.

That is where red shirting pays dividends from a developmental standpoint. I can think of some former Gopher football players who could have benefited from red shirting.

For some, going to a lower level program may fit them better. They may even thrive, and who knows have a better chance of getting drafted (if they developed to be great players) than being buried deep in the depth chart of a P5 school.
 

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