Seth Davis: Ben Johnson has done an incredible job with this team. One of the elite coaches in one of the toughest jobs in America.

As you read the fire BJ crowds comments here on Seth Davis' post, I would encourage you to go back and read their predictions on how many Big 10 wins the Gophers will have this year.

You will find their win predictions to be on par with the reaction to Davis. Let's just say they were & are terrible wrong in both instances. My favorite is USAF's zero win prediction. And he is not alone in vastly underestimating this team and coaching staff.

The fire BJ crowd sure know their basketball. LOL.
What point do you think you are making? So people thought the team would be terrible...they are just "pretty bad" and somehow that shows Ben is a good coach who deserves to keep his job? That might work at Applebees but not in any job where performance matters.

Two things can be true:

1) The team is objectively better than we thought it would be.
2) It is not good enough to justify keeping him around.

Keep trying though.

(I don't know who you really are but you stink of PBU and I bet you are hardly a Gopher Fan)
 

Do you think you ever have to show results in a job? If you had a garbage person, I think you'd probably judge them by how consistently your garbage got picked up, price, and maybe things like how they put your cans back. You wouldn't give them kudos for occasionally showing they can sometimes surprise you and pick up the garbage bins.

There are things that are nuanced in the world and many things that are simple. In my opinion, if you overcomplicate simple concepts in order to make a point, you've lost the argument.

We've been bad for 5 years. The clearest indication of that fact is our record. There can often be a nuanced discussion over what is in fact "bad", but I don't think anyone would argue that our record isn't bad.

Why overcomplicate an incredibly simple discussion?
I mean, I can equally point out that you're oversimplifying a concept that is inherently complicated and your oversimplification to make your point loses the argument. Neither response is the right one and the reality falls somewhere in between.

Also, garbage picking and coaching a major college basketball program are an awful comparison. One job is the same every day, the other changes daily and yearly, especially as of late with the major changes taking place over the entire cbb landscape. You can absolutely boil it down to wins and losses, but with that thought process, probably greater than 50% of the coaching population should be jettisoned from their respective programs and never be allowed to step foot on a court again. It's not realistic.

And mind you, at no point have I said that Johnson should be retained or deserves an extention, based on numbers alone, yes, he should be replaced. However, I've been primarily complaining about the extreme takes from some like he should've never even been considered for this job in the first place along with the complete disregard by many about the moments he's shown he's competence in the face of all of these people stating otherwise. I despise disingenuity and how it's become so commonplace, especially with the spite that's associated with that behavior (this isn't directed towards you, but generally). I also hate how practically every topic has a political slant nowadays and how this particular topic is constantly steered in that direction by a handful of fringe folk. They aren't helping the "he should be replaced because of his record" detractors' cause because they have to shove their political bullshit down everyone's throat at every opportunity they can.
 
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Not just NIL, but the Portal as well. Though the Portal works both ways considering the percentage for the current roster was obtained via that process.
I think most years going forward, the new "normal" is going to be that the bulk of playing minutes are going to go to guys who:

- are transfers into the program, and/or
- are in their first or second year with the Gophers program


Granted that Garcia and Fox are themselves both transfers, but they've been here a while now.


This may be the new normal at most programs too. I honestly don't follow college BB to know the answer to that, but I wouldn't be surprised.
 

Look hockey makes money and that is great (it is my fave sport) but more people watch reruns of Big Bang Theory than watch even the best hockey matchups. I know it sounds like I am exaggerating but I am pretty sure BTN was bragging that they got 159k people to watch a game a month or so ago. (one of the top viewership numbers they have had)
This is a legit question, not a gotcha setup, but what are the average hoops numbers in terms of TV viewing?
 

Well obviously Coyle hates the U of M since he is getting prominent national media types to bash us! :ROFLMAO:
He's created a Frankenstein's monster!

Seriously, this flurry of media buzz... It makes me wonder, as EG speculated, whether word has gotten out in the basketball community that Johnson will be let go, and people are reacting to that without spilling the beans. Reacting to either influence Coyle to not follow through, or passive-aggressively to make Minnesota look bad when and if they make the move.

The Gophers are not darlings among the NCAA punditry, and it dates back to the academic fraud. We've been ostracized like no other cheater in memory has. The punditry surely knows that our cheating was not remarkable compared to things that went on and continue to go on to keep players eligible. We were the willing sacrifice who took on everyone else's sins, haha. The punishment must be perpetual to be sufficient.

Our rivals certainly want to keep us down. It serves no useful purpose in the world for Minnesota to rise and become relevant again. Even locally, the Gophers would only divert attention from the big-money pro teams. Not saying it's a conspiracy, but it's definitely the zeitgeist right now.
 


This is a legit question, not a gotcha setup, but what are the average hoops numbers in terms of TV viewing?

2 Saturday's ago(the most recent data) the five games on ESPN avg out to a little over 1.5 million viewers. The highest rated CBB regular season game was a little over 5.5 million (Arkansas vs Illinois)
 

I'm fine with keeping Ben. I've resigned myself to the theory this is just a hard place to win (whether it's due to NIL and/or facilities) and any realistic replacement coach will probably do no better. Richard Pitino's success in New Mexico only confirms my feelings.
 

Assistants probably realize they have done nothing to warrant anyone else hiring them. So let’s make it seem like we aren’t accountable for our record.
Per Doogie, they're "thrilled" with their current assistants and wouldn't want any changes.
 




So, what's left? How he dresses on the sideline? 👎 His presence on social media and how well he uses it to connect with fans and keep them up to date on things? 👎 His ability to explain and articulate matters of interest to fans and observers of the program in his post-game remarks and weekly radio show? 👎 What other measures of performance have I left out?
His ability make anyone with a press pass swoon hard.
 

I considered you capable of seeing the situation as a little more nuanced than wins vs losses, which is why I responded to you and not one of the more reactive nitwits. But hey, if you're gonna shut it down like that, that's alright. I wish I could see life in such simplified, black and white terms as you do, it would take a lot of the critical thinking out of things.
I can see the argument of "hey let's not hold his disastrous year 1 and year 2 against him by citing the 22-55 record." OK. But the 16-22 likely to be 16-24 record from year 3-4 isn't good enough either. And there's no realistic reason for optimism about next year because Asuma is the only meaningful returning player.

Record aside, Ben is, at best, an average recruiter and a below average X's and O's coach. He's also not good on the PR/fundraising side. That will not work here and I don't see how any of those things are going to magically get better.

He deserves credit for keeping the team playing hard and pulling out a few close wins. But if we give him another year just for that, there is a 95% chance we will be having the same discussion a year from now and he'll be fired. I'd rather not waste another year spinning our wheels just because we pulled off a couple unlikey wins in LA and Lincoln.
 

I can see the argument of "hey let's not hold his disastrous year 1 and year 2 against him by citing the 22-55 record." OK. But the 16-22 likely to be 16-24 record from year 3-4 isn't good enough either. And there's no realistic reason for optimism about next year because Asuma is the only meaningful returning player.

Record aside, Ben is, at best, an average recruiter and a below average X's and O's coach. He's also not good on the PR/fundraising side. That will not work here and I don't see how any of those things are going to magically get better.

He deserves credit for keeping the team playing hard and pulling out a few close wins. But if we give there is a 95% chance we will be having the same discussion a year from now and he'll be fired. I'd rather not waste another year spinning our wheels.
Shall we hand out participation trophies, a juice box, and a package of fruity gummies for playing hard while being at the bottom of the league?
 

What point do you think you are making? So people thought the team would be terrible...they are just "pretty bad" and somehow that shows Ben is a good coach who deserves to keep his job? That might work at Applebees but not in any job where performance matters.

Two things can be true:

1) The team is objectively better than we thought it would be.
2) It is not good enough to justify keeping him around.

Keep trying though.

(I don't know who you really are but you stink of PBU and I bet you are hardly a Gopher Fan)
There are times when a coach can be lauded for just exceeding expectations. When they have no control over the roster. Tom Kelly did a fine job managing the mid/late 90's Twins teams. They were terrible, but they won more games than they should have. But he wasn't responsible for setting the payroll or acquiring the players. Also, he had already more than proven that he was capable manager before the losing years hit. None of that applies to Ben.
 



Shall we hand out participation trophies, a juice box, and a package of fruity gummies for playing hard while being at the bottom of the league?
Bottom tier administrative investment with bottom tier NIL, is shockingly at the bottom of the league. Stop the presses
 

I mean, I can equally point out that you're oversimplifying a concept that is inherently complicated and your oversimplification to make your point loses the argument. Neither response is the right one and the reality falls somewhere in between.

Also, garbage picking and coaching a major college basketball program are an awful comparison. One job is the same every day, the other changes daily and yearly, especially as of late with the major changes taking place over the entire cbb landscape. You can absolutely boil it down to wins and losses, but with that thought process, probably greater than 50% of the coaching population should be jettisoned from their respective programs and never be allowed to step foot on a court again. It's not realistic.

And mind you, at no point have I said that Johnson should be retained or deserves an extention, based on numbers alone, yes, he should be replaced. However, I've been primarily complaining about the extreme takes from some like he should've never even been considered for this job in the first place along with the complete disregard by many about the moments he's shown he's competence in the face of all of these people stating otherwise. I despise disingenuity and how it's become so commonplace, especially with the spite that's associated with that behavior (this isn't directed towards you, but generally). I also hate how practically every topic has a political slant nowadays and how this particular topic is constantly steered in that direction by a handful of fringe folk. They aren't helping the "he should be replaced because of his record" detractors' cause because they have to shove their political bullshit down everyone's throat at every opportunity they can.
2 factors that matter, wins/losses and attendance. Both stink under Ben. I rest my case.
 

Bottom tier administrative investment with bottom tier NIL, is shockingly at the bottom of the league. Stop the presses
I agree with you on that. Ben is a bottom tier coach, hired for bottom tier money. If the U is serious about escaping the bottom, then they have to go big. Otherwise just stick with Ben and let the program continue the death march. Hiring another low end coach is not the solution.
 

I agree with you on that. Ben is a bottom tier coach, hired for bottom tier money. If the U is serious about escaping the bottom, then they have to go big. Otherwise just stick with Ben and let the program continue the death march. Hiring another low end coach is not the solution.
That's too defeatest. Ben makes $2.5 million. They can easily pay $3-$3.5 to get a competent coach without going "big." Sure it would be great if they would. But it's not an either/or discussion. Getting someone like Chris Mack or Niko Medved won't require $5 million/year and will still be a big upgrade.
 

I agree with you on that. Ben is a bottom tier coach, hired for bottom tier money. If the U is serious about escaping the bottom, then they have to go big. Otherwise just stick with Ben and let the program continue the death march. Hiring another low end coach is not the solution.
Ben Johnson is not worth his salary. If we actually hire a coach worth bottom tier big ten money, we will much better off than where we are.
 

I'm fine with keeping Ben. I've resigned myself to the theory this is just a hard place to win (whether it's due to NIL and/or facilities) and any realistic replacement coach will probably do no better. Richard Pitino's success in New Mexico only confirms my feelings.
I'm not OK with keeping Coach Ben. He has to go. But you're correct, this University is a hard place to win. They have a long history of providing but meager financial support to the athletic Department, while at the same time showing a complete dismissiveness for their any accomplishments. It's nearly impossible to succeed when you haven't the support and backing from your administration.
 

I mean, I can equally point out that you're oversimplifying a concept that is inherently complicated and your oversimplification to make your point loses the argument. Neither response is the right one and the reality falls somewhere in between.

Also, garbage picking and coaching a major college basketball program are an awful comparison. One job is the same every day, the other changes daily and yearly, especially as of late with the major changes taking place over the entire cbb landscape. You can absolutely boil it down to wins and losses, but with that thought process, probably greater than 50% of the coaching population should be jettisoned from their respective programs and never be allowed to step foot on a court again. It's not realistic.

And mind you, at no point have I said that Johnson should be retained or deserves an extention, based on numbers alone, yes, he should be replaced. However, I've been primarily complaining about the extreme takes from some like he should've never even been considered for this job in the first place
He should never have been hired in the first place. No other high D1 program had considered him nor would they have. He missed out on the N Illinois job. He had nothing at all on his record that predicted success.
along with the complete disregard by many about the moments he's shown he's competence in the face of all of these people stating otherwise.
He has shown moments of competence and his players are of good character and play hard.
I despise disingenuity and how it's become so commonplace, especially with the spite that's associated with that behavior (this isn't directed towards you, but generally). I also hate how practically every topic has a political slant nowadays and how this particular topic is constantly steered in that direction by a handful of fringe folk. They aren't helping the "he should be replaced because of his record" detractors' cause because they have to shove their political bullshit down everyone's throat at every opportunity they can.
Looks like you just went political there.
 

As you read the fire BJ crowds comments here on Seth Davis' post, I would encourage you to go back and read their predictions on how many Big 10 wins the Gophers will have this year.

You will find their win predictions to be on par with the reaction to Davis. Let's just say they were & are terrible wrong in both instances. My favorite is USAF's zero win prediction. And he is not alone in vastly underestimating this team and coaching staff.

The fire BJ crowd sure know their basketball. LOL.
You’re the type of parent that gets mad if your child comes in last and doesn’t get a participation trophy aren’t you?
 

Ben Johnson is not worth his salary. If we actually hire a coach worth bottom tier big ten money, we will much better off than where we are.
Finished 9th last year with the 14th salary and will finish above 18th this year with the 18th salary. If he gets fired and we repeat the 18th salary with the next coach. Where do you think the next coach will rank in the B1G?
 

I don't understand giving Johnson, or any coach, extra credit for his team "playing hard."
That should be the expectation. A given. The norm.
Like breathing.

Credit for playing well? Sure. Smart? Yeah.
Plenty of things coaches can influence that result in more or less wins than just talent itself dictates.

But Playing hard? Be serious.
 


Bottom tier administrative investment with bottom tier NIL, is shockingly at the bottom of the league. Stop the presses
Bottom tier NIL is directly related to the enthusiasm/support coming from the community. CBJ brings none of that to the table.

I don't know how old you are, but I wish NIL was in existence when Tubby was hired. The excitement, support and enthusiasm for the program was off the charts. I remember being shocked at the hire thinking "this can't be happening".

I've still got my "Tubby-Time" t-shirt somewhere. There would have been plenty of NIL from Twin Cites area if it existed back then....

That's what this program needs.....a splash hire with a guy who will promote the program and bring in the NIL donors. The $$$$ is there.
 

Bottom tier NIL is directly related to the enthusiasm/support coming from the community. CBJ brings none of that to the table.

I don't know how old you are, but I wish NIL was in existence when Tubby was hired. The excitement, support and enthusiasm for the program was off the charts. I remember being shocked at the hire thinking "this can't be happening".

I've still got my "Tubby-Time" t-shirt somewhere. There would have been plenty of NIL from Twin Cites area if it existed back then....

That's what this program needs.....a splash hire with a guy who will promote the program and bring in the NIL donors. The $$$$ is there.
I agree that's what the program needs in the current era of college sports. I'm pro making a change if that happens but based on sources of people that would know the salary portion isn't going to change. Unless *insert mid major coach* has a few billionaire friends, Gopher basketball will remain in the bottom 1/4 of the conference. So what's the point of making a change if that's what the plan is?
 



I agree that's what the program needs in the current era of college sports. I'm pro making a change if that happens but based on sources of people that would know the salary portion isn't going to change. Unless *insert mid major coach* has a few billionaire friends, Gopher basketball will remain in the bottom 1/4 of the conference. So what's the point of making a change if that's what the plan is?
Well.....Will Wade is making less than a million bucks per season......
 

I agree that's what the program needs in the current era of college sports. I'm pro making a change if that happens but based on sources of people that would know the salary portion isn't going to change. Unless *insert mid major coach* has a few billionaire friends, Gopher basketball will remain in the bottom 1/4 of the conference. So what's the point of making a change if that's what the plan is?
Even you could not be dumb enough to have this opinion. Just admit that you're in the midst of a nihilistic cope when it comes to Ben Johnson.

Just because we paid $2 million for a $70,000 coach does not mean that it would be impossible to improve the program by hiring a $2million coach. It's really simple. Ben Johnson is not even worthy of being the lowest paid coach in the Big 10. He is not worthy of coaching in the MAC.
 




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