Seth Davis: Ben Johnson has done an incredible job with this team. One of the elite coaches in one of the toughest jobs in America.

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EG#9 said:
I was shocked to see all 3 of the top assistant coaches for the Gophers retweeted this Seth Davis tweet. That seems to be in incredibly poor taste to retweet saying the job that is paying your salary is one of the toughest in the country. Minnesota/Mark Coyle gave these guys the biggest checks of their lives AND retained them after 3 years despite a worse B1G record than Todd Lickliter had. Hopefully that means they know they are already gone.

I find it very encouraging that despite a number of local media members following the same talking points, the overwhelming majority of fans responding to their takes are strongly disagreeing with them.
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I appreciate your perspective on this matter, but I'd like to offer another viewpoint. Retweeting praise for one's performance is a common and, frankly, human behavior—especially in roles as scrutinized as coaching. When faced with criticism or challenges, it's not unusual for individuals to amplify positive feedback as a way to affirm their efforts and share their accomplishments.

Condemning these coaches for retweeting praise seems unnecessary. It is possible to respectfully disagree with someone's actions without undermining their right to share sentiments that resonate with them. In public-facing roles, especially where performance is constantly under the microscope, it's important to allow space for individuals to express themselves without fear of anonymous judgment.

Allow me to rephrase this for you, what a jerk move.
 


EG#9 said:
I was shocked to see all 3 of the top assistant coaches for the Gophers retweeted this Seth Davis tweet. That seems to be in incredibly poor taste to retweet saying the job that is paying your salary is one of the toughest in the country. Minnesota/Mark Coyle gave these guys the biggest checks of their lives AND retained them after 3 years despite a worse B1G record than Todd Lickliter had. Hopefully that means they know they are already gone.

I find it very encouraging that despite a number of local media members following the same talking points, the overwhelming majority of fans responding to their takes are strongly disagreeing with them.
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You put it better than I could have; thank you. I follow Thorson on Twitter. He's been a good follow and a good dude, but he put me off with that post. It's one thing when Seth Davis bashes my program, but it's another thing when an employee paid with my financial support trumpets him. Choose your lot, Dave: allegiance to the school you work for or to critics of it.

...and Seth continues to bash Minnesota in post after post. How many NCAA schools get this treatment from a prominent national CBB media figure? There are plenty of other programs he and others could say the same things about, but they come after Minnesota. Why?
 

WilliamsArenaGuy said:
I actually disagree with this narrative. He put together a bunch of guys who are like 24/25 years old who have been playing college basketball for years and all had some sort of success at the level they played at. I think the whole point in building this roster was to actually have a good team and that the talent isn’t that bad. I think he put this team together to save his job because he thought they would be better than people expected.

They’ve proven that in some of the games they’ve won, which I would say is the most unexpected thing is the winds against Michigan and UCLA, etc. But to me, he’s just proving even more that he’s not the right coach and that he’s not good at it because he couldn’t get any consistency out of these guys and he couldn’t get them to play like this until after halfway through the season.

This leads to the bigger issue that this was a one year deal and it was boom or bust. We’ve busted even with having an all conference player leading the way. So it’s very easy to see that they’re gonna go backwards next season. So he did his best and he tried, but he failed. Now we need to move on with a new coach who knows what he’s doing. First qualification should be that he’s actually been a head coach at a division one level at some point.
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I think you hit on a point in this that gets buried in all the negativity. Johnson isn't necessarily a bad basketball coach, he is just a bad fit for this role.

I think if he had the right mix of players he could coach them up to their potential and be successful but the problem in that is that he has to be the one to go get that right mix of players and over 4 years he has shown an inability to get or retain the guys he needs to get the team to the next level.

That is why I feel like they need to go a different direction next year. Start fresh in the new revenue sharing era (whatever that turns out to be) with a new coach and essentially a brand new roster. I just don't think you can role the dice on Johnson building the roster from the ground up again when his previous attempts have all fallen short.
 

Arealgopherfan said:
Interesting. I just looked up Seth Davis' background, and he is a college graduate. Thanks for lending validity to Seth Davis' analysis.
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If Seth were the AD of a program, he wouldn't hire Johnson. Minnesota's plight is no skin off his nose. He's just a loudmouth mouthing loud.
 


Johnnyboy18 said:
Or the program has sucked for 25 years and good coaches have got fired here because it's 'one of the worst jobs in the country'.

I haven't seen anything about the Rolling Stones. Probably because when they were in their prime was the last time the Gophers had a good basketball program without cheating/scandal.
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A buddy of mine who has seen the Stones in every decade since the 80's Tatoo You Tour saw them in Seattle last spring.

He said it was his favorite RS show ever, so apparently they are still in their prime (or just getting there).
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Where does Seth Davis live in Minnesota? I thought it was just Ben's friends defending him. Maybe he's black?
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If this is a genuine point, then where was Seth Davis tweet after NW game? Doesn't an incredible job necessarily have to include all of the regular season?

Or do you think there was zero opportunistic nature in the post coming after an exciting win?
 


TwistingMyMelon said:
On the surface I would agree but I think Johnnyboy was being ironic. There are posters here who despise Johnson in part because they consider him a "DEI hire."
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I don't even know if it was that .... I think the (now former) president dictate to Coyle that he was only allowed to seriously consider Black candidates.

Then Coyle took it upon himself to do what he thought was the right thing for the time: hire someone who could recruit the crap out of Twin Cities prospects and keep them home.

But NIL blew up any chance of that, what little there was
 



ShushPush said:
That is even funnier since you called the program incompetent, and you know how many fans went to the game you were at! The irony landed.
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Here is a little hint...many of the things referenced go back further than the conversations you are reading.

It is the consensus around here (and other fandom places) that the U is terrible at running an AD, they have zero interest in being successful, they suck at all marketing and so on. Not necessarily one I agree with all the way (I think they are woefully behind the times in some areas) but not nearly as bad as the majority around here think. I think the U does as good a job on some sports as can be done in a market like ours...but they obviously could improve in others. I also think success level, timing and other factors (like say, going to the Rose Bowl) help football unlike basketball.

The point of the post wasn't that I think the AD is awful, it is that many of the people on this board think those things but also seem to think that the U is going 1984 on the bit both locally and nationally. The same people who think Coyle is a terrible leader and communicator believe he somehow also convinced people either through money we dont have (another ludicrous thought but one they subscribe to) or charisma he doesnt possess that they should shill for a coach the school can easily get rid of because...reasons? There is nothing the U of M could offer Seth Davis to make a stupid take like this one...he made it because he wanted to.
 

Bad Gopher said:
You put it better than I could have; thank you. I follow Thorson on Twitter. He's been a good follow and a good dude, but he put me off with that post. It's one thing when Seth Davis bashes my program, but it's another thing when an employee paid with my financial support trumpets him. Choose your lot, Dave: allegiance to the school you work for or to critics of it.

...and Seth continues to bash Minnesota in post after post. How many NCAA schools get this treatment from a prominent national CBB media figure? There are plenty of other programs he and others could say the same things about, but they come after Minnesota. Why?
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Well obviously Coyle hates the U of M since he is getting prominent national media types to bash us! :ROFLMAO:
 

I think I've come to brace myself that CBJ is going to return next year, no matter how the rest of the year plays out. As much as the 5 Q1 wins is a really great mark, were still just 8-14 in Q's 1-3, which is overall pretty bad. He's gotta schedule and have the team perform better in the OOC portion, so we have something to play for heading into league play. Will he be able to do that, my guess is no because he's shown no capacity to do so.
 




Ope3 said:
A buddy of mine who has seen the Stones in every decade since the 80's Tatoo You Tour saw them in Seattle last spring.

He said it was his favorite RS show ever, so apparently they are still in their prime (or just getting there).
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I saw them last year...one of the best shows I have ever seen.
 

GopherGrit said:
I don't even know if it was that .... I think the (now former) president dictate to Coyle that he was only allowed to seriously consider Black candidates.

Then Coyle took it upon himself to do what he thought was the right thing for the time: hire someone who could recruit the crap out of Twin Cities prospects and keep them home.

But NIL blew up any chance of that, what little there was
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Not just NIL, but the Portal as well. Though the Portal works both ways considering the percentage for the current roster was obtained via that process.
 



EG#9 said:
I was shocked to see all 3 of the top assistant coaches for the Gophers retweeted this Seth Davis tweet. That seems to be in incredibly poor taste to retweet saying the job that is paying your salary is one of the toughest in the country. Minnesota/Mark Coyle gave these guys the biggest checks of their lives AND retained them after 3 years despite a worse B1G record than Todd Lickliter had. Hopefully that means they know they are already gone.

I find it very encouraging that despite a number of local media members following the same talking points, the overwhelming majority of fans responding to their takes are strongly disagreeing with them.
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Assistants probably realize they have done nothing to warrant anyone else hiring them. So let’s make it seem like we aren’t accountable for our record.
 

howeda7 said:
Alrighty then. If you don't want to evaluate a coach based on his won/loss record there's no point in further discussion. Ben's great. Just don't evaluate him based on winning games.
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So, what's left? How he dresses on the sideline? 👎 His presence on social media and how well he uses it to connect with fans and keep them up to date on things? 👎 His ability to explain and articulate matters of interest to fans and observers of the program in his post-game remarks and weekly radio show? 👎 What other measures of performance have I left out?
 

Dave H said:
Here is a little hint...many of the things referenced go back further than the conversations you are reading.

It is the consensus around here (and other fandom places) that the U is terrible at running an AD, they have zero interest in being successful, they suck at all marketing and so on. Not necessarily one I agree with all the way (I think they are woefully behind the times in some areas) but not nearly as bad as the majority around here think. I think the U does as good a job on some sports as can be done in a market like ours...but they obviously could improve in others. I also think success level, timing and other factors (like say, going to the Rose Bowl) help football unlike basketball.

The point of the post wasn't that I think the AD is awful, it is that many of the people on this board think those things but also seem to think that the U is going 1984 on the bit both locally and nationally. The same people who think Coyle is a terrible leader and communicator believe he somehow also convinced people either through money we dont have (another ludicrous thought but one they subscribe to) or charisma he doesnt possess that they should shill for a coach the school can easily get rid of because...reasons? There is nothing the U of M could offer Seth Davis to make a stupid take like this one...he made it because he wanted to.
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I think to a significant extent the athletic department has no idea what the college sports landscape will look like over the next five years due to NIL and the only predictably reliable bellcow is football so they're putting all of their eggs in that basket. From a fiscally conservative standpoint I don't think that's an awful gamble, how much revenue does a basketball team realistically make an AD if they aren't a perpetual top 25 team? How many basketball programs at schools with above average performing football programs are generating a significant amount of income for their schools? Is there even a reliable data set for that?

I think we've reached a point where, if you want to be nationally relevant, you have to decide if you're going to be a football school or a basketball school. If you try to divy up that NIL/revenue sharing pie too much, you end up in a situation where you're spreading the wealth too broadly and you have two teams with average rosters containing guys who are everyone else's third or fourth options because you don't have the money to bring in high end guys in either program. That's the recipe for two defecit programs.

Since the college sports landscape changed, basketball has continued to be down, whereas football has been up. Logic dictates you invest where you've been predictably competitive and successful. I think the school will continue to roll with Johnson until things become a little clearer with NIL nationally or he completely bombs a la zero conference wins and getting barnstormed by 20+ per game. He's basically showing the AD that he can occasionally field a team that plays above its prognosticated weight and win when it shouldn't, which helps them in their decision making if they're trying to push off a basketball decision as long as possible.
 

howeda7 said:
Alrighty then. If you don't want to evaluate a coach based on his won/loss record there's no point in further discussion. Ben's great. Just don't evaluate him based on winning games.
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I considered you capable of seeing the situation as a little more nuanced than wins vs losses, which is why I responded to you and not one of the more reactive nitwits. But hey, if you're gonna shut it down like that, that's alright. I wish I could see life in such simplified, black and white terms as you do, it would take a lot of the critical thinking out of things.
 

Bad Gopher said:
...and Seth continues to bash Minnesota in post after post. How many NCAA schools get this treatment from a prominent national CBB media figure? There are plenty of other programs he and others could say the same things about, but they come after Minnesota. Why?
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I don't know. Maybe Seth Davis reads this forum. It almost singlehandedly punctures the myth of "Minnesota Nice."
 

mngg11 said:
I think to a significant extent the athletic department has no idea what the college sports landscape will look like over the next five years due to NIL and the only predictably reliable bellcow is football so they're putting all of their eggs in that basket. From a fiscally conservative standpoint I don't think that's an awful gamble, how much revenue does a basketball team realistically make an AD if they aren't a perpetual top 25 team? How many basketball programs at schools with above average performing football programs are generating a significant amount of income for their schools? Is there even a reliable data set for that?

I think we've reached a point where, if you want to be nationally relevant, you have to decide if you're going to be a football school or a basketball school. If you try to divy up that NIL/revenue sharing pie too much, you end up in a situation where you're spreading the wealth too broadly and you have two teams with average rosters containing guys who are everyone else's third or fourth options because you don't have the money to bring in high end guys in either program. That's the recipe for two defecit programs.

Since the college sports landscape changed, basketball has continued to be down, whereas football has been up. Logic dictates you invest where you've been predictably competitive and successful. I think the school will continue to roll with Johnson until things become a little clearer with NIL nationally or he completely bombs a la zero conference wins and getting barnstormed by 20+ per game. He's basically showing the AD that he can occasionally field a team that plays above its prognosticated weight and win when it shouldn't, which helps them in their decision making if they're trying to push off a basketball decision as long as possible.
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I have no idea if you're right or wrong on what the school will do, but if this is their thought process, they are the biggest group of losers on the planet. Our prognosticated weight is so low because our program is in shambles. In case you're wondering, we were 10-17-2 against the spread this year, so we've been significantly worse than our "prognosticated weight" and our "prognotistcated weight" was already low.

We are an awful basketball program. We've been an awful basketball program during Johnson's entire tenure. I know the Johnson apologist crowd doesn't want to hear about wins and losses (which is just odd), but then look at every other metric. There is not a single thing you can point to that isn't awful in our program.

There is literally ZERO risk in making a move. We can't get worse. Even if we dropped down to 3 Big 10 wins per year, what's the difference? He has not shown the AD anything. This is basketball, occasionally lesser teams win basketball games. I had Timberwolves season tickets for the Rambis years and I saw some wins. Do you know how crazy it would have been for me to say "well, he did show that occasionally we can field a team that plays above its prognosticated weight and win?" This is crazy.
 

mngg11 said:
I think to a significant extent the athletic department has no idea what the college sports landscape will look like over the next five years due to NIL and the only predictably reliable bellcow is football so they're putting all of their eggs in that basket.
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I agree with that but hockey also plays a part and maybe a bigger one because that sport directly competes with basketball season and the U is a perennial big fish in a small pond in that sport. Two thirds of Big Ten schools don't even field hockey teams so they don't have to deal with that competing interest.
 

mngg11 said:
I considered you capable of seeing the situation as a little more nuanced than wins vs losses, which is why I responded to you and not one of the more reactive nitwits. But hey, if you're gonna shut it down like that, that's alright. I wish I could see life in such simplified, black and white terms as you do, it would take a lot of the critical thinking out of things.
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Do you think you ever have to show results in a job? If you had a garbage person, I think you'd probably judge them by how consistently your garbage got picked up, price, and maybe things like how they put your cans back. You wouldn't give them kudos for occasionally showing they can sometimes surprise you and pick up the garbage bins.

There are things that are nuanced in the world and many things that are simple. In my opinion, if you overcomplicate simple concepts in order to make a point, you've lost the argument.

We've been bad for 5 years. The clearest indication of that fact is our record. There can often be a nuanced discussion over what is in fact "bad", but I don't think anyone would argue that our record isn't bad.

Why overcomplicate an incredibly simple discussion?
 



Bob_Loblaw said:
I have no idea if you're right or wrong on what the school will do, but if this is their thought process, they are the biggest group of losers on the planet. Our prognosticated weight is so low because our program is in shambles. In case you're wondering, we were 10-17-2 against the spread this year, so we've been significantly worse than our "prognosticated weight" and our "prognotistcated weight" was already low.

We are an awful basketball program. We've been an awful basketball program during Johnson's entire tenure. I know the Johnson apologist crowd doesn't want to hear about wins and losses (which is just odd), but then look at every other metric. There is not a single thing you can point to that isn't awful in our program.

There is literally ZERO risk in making a move. We can't get worse. Even if we dropped down to 3 Big 10 wins per year, what's the difference? He has not shown the AD anything. This is basketball, occasionally lesser teams win basketball games. I had Timberwolves season tickets for the Rambis years and I saw some wins. Do you know how crazy it would have been for me to say "well, he did show that occasionally we can field a team that plays above its prognosticated weight and win?" This is crazy.
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I don't think it's crazy, I think replacing the head bb coach isn't a priority right now. How else can you explain any of this? He's provided enough output for the AD to retain him if they want to. We'll find out soon enough, but if he isn't, it's all about money. They'll sit on their hands with the current guy instead of negotiating a new multimillion dollar contract and a raise with a new guy if they don't have to.
 

As you read the fire BJ crowds comments here on Seth Davis' post, I would encourage you to go back and read their predictions on how many Big 10 wins the Gophers will have this year.

You will find their win predictions to be on par with the reaction to Davis. Let's just say they were & are terrible wrong in both instances. My favorite is USAF's zero win prediction. And he is not alone in vastly underestimating this team and coaching staff.

The fire BJ crowd sure know their basketball. LOL.
 
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TwistingMyMelon said:
I agree with that but hockey also plays a part and maybe a bigger one because that sport directly competes with basketball season and the U is a perennial big fish in a small pond in that sport. Two thirds of Big Ten schools don't even field hockey teams so they don't have to deal with that competing interest.
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Look hockey makes money and that is great (it is my fave sport) but more people watch reruns of Big Bang Theory than watch even the best hockey matchups. I know it sounds like I am exaggerating but I am pretty sure BTN was bragging that they got 159k people to watch a game a month or so ago. (one of the top viewership numbers they have had)
 

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