Seth Davis: Ben Johnson has done an incredible job with this team. One of the elite coaches in one of the toughest jobs in America.

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TwistingMyMelon said:
I agree with that. I also think, despite initial appearances, that the nonconference was tougher too. North Texas has had a fine season, Wake Forest has done well in the ACC, Yale cruised in the Ivy League, Omaha leads the Summit, and Cleveland State still is in the hunt for the Horizon championship. Wichita State went through a terrible mid-season slump but they've seemed to stabilize more recently.

I think the biggest difference between this year and last is the team performance on the road. Haslametrics ranks the Gophers as the 13th best road team nationally and the Gophers are one of only 4 conference teams with a winning road record.
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I agree the games against Yale, Omaha, Cleveland State and North Texas turned out to pretty much be best case scenario for our OOC SOS. But scheduling the best team in the Summit or Horizon will still only be scheduling a team in the 120-175ish range typically. Scheduling an additional 5 games that rate below that will leave you where it's left us, with an OCC SOS 300+.
 

Arealgopherfan said:
Here we go again with the "right coach" solution. No names, just anybody but Johnson. In that case, I'm hoping the "Fairy Godfather" can be hired. It's as much of a strategy as an abstract right coach approach. And I hate to break it to you people in FBJ crowd, but hiring the right coach depends on their availability, willingness to coach at the U, and the compensation package being right for their accepting the job. So please give us some names of "right coach(es)" that fit those requirements.
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If they hire the wrong coach......they will continually finish at the bottom of the BIG 10 and never make the tourney.

And if they really screw it up badly.......they could end up with a 21 - 54 record, about to be a 21 - 55 record, in the big 10 with the new guy.

That's probably over your head, but I gave it a shot.

I don't think we dare risk making a move.

You can only go down from where we are at, with a miniscule chance of going up.
 
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Gophers7633 said:
I agree the games against Yale, Omaha, Cleveland State and North Texas turned out to pretty much be best case scenario for our OOC SOS. But scheduling the best team in the Summit or Horizon will still only be scheduling a team in the 120-175ish range typically. Scheduling an additional 5 games that rate below that will leave you where it's left us, with an OCC SOS 300+.
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Sure, but that's better than last year when we had around 5 sub-300 teams in the nonconference and only two nonconference teams ranked within the top 200!
 

Arealgopherfan said:
My point is this. If you look at the actual language of Davis' comments, all he did is sited his opinion, followed by his reasons for his opinion.

"Ben Johnson has done an incredible job with this team. One of the elite coaches in one of the toughest jobs in America." He went on to site the following factors as his reason for saying so: "Tough league, brutal weather, outdated facilities, minimal NIL $$".

So how does the fire Ben Johnson crowd respond. Predictaby, with their fire Ben Johnson chant. Oh, and they are very offended by the word "elite" being used, and the weather being a mentioned factor. On the big factors of NIL and facilities, crickets.

The fact is there are major, non-coach related reasons for Gopher basketball's current state. And until those reasons are addressed, hiring a new coach is not going to be the panacea the fire Ben Johnson crowd thinks it will be.
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No we responded by saying Seth Davis has no idea what he is talking about...cause he doesn't. And that you are dying on this hill it proves you don't either.

Since you cant find any real reason to defend Ben Johnson you basically try and mitigate his suck by saying it isn't his fault. Plenty of coaches do better with equal issues. Just because you are too myopic to see it doesn't mean we should just pretend it isn't true.
 

Bad Gopher said:
We can (and do) debate which is the worst job in the Big Ten, but the fact we're even having this debate is testament to how far the Minnesota program has fallen. Make no mistake, there are inherent disadvantages for this school--and every school has disadvantages--but our arguable status as the unhealthiest in the league is largely self-inflicted, the biggest blow being the hire of Ben Johnson. Even four years ago it would have been preposterous to put us below Northwestern, Penn State, and Rutgers, but here we are looking up at all of them from the standpoint of program health, not to mention losing to NW and PSU at home.

Any situation is what you make of it. Take a look around. There are plenty of colleges around the country with inherent disadvantages--that could be conisdered the worst situation in their league if they accepted that lot--but who overcome them to achieve. What saddens me is when people like Davis bash this institution, state and city, and people in this forum flock to cheer him. How much self hate do you have to have as an alumnus and resident to log in on here and agree with him? Why do people even live here if it's such a shitty place? SMH
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People live here and enjoy it for many reasons outside of gopher hoops.

Take a look at the records four years ago before you say it was preposterous to put us below NU, Rutgers and PSU.

Nobody is cheering Davis' comments. Just acknowledging reality. No self hate involved. The reason Coyle and the administration have gotten away with this for so long is their failure to acknowledge the reality of the situation and do anything about it. The program had no energy long before Johnson was hired.
 


TwistingMyMelon said:
I certainly believe that hockey doesn't generate the TV money that basketball does but I don't think it's so unlikely that there are more college hockey fans than gopher basketball fans in this state. Hockey is the one sport where all of the larger state universities field D1 teams so it provides for significant in-state rivalries. This state also produces more D1 hockey players than any other (according to a publication I read about two years ago). Do you know the values of NIL for hockey vs. men's basketball?
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Yeah I remember when people on the old Gopher Hockey Board (POI) thought that when Sid said Basketball was bigger...and it just isnt the case. When Gopher basketball is good, it honestly owns the market. I remember under Clem when NIT runs were must see TV. I remember when in chats on GPL Rick Pizzo would pop in from time to time and give us the break down of how it all worked...and it was quite eye opening.

The thing is, that hockey is niche even here and college hockey is a niche of a niche. There is almost zero casual engagement so its really rather maxed out. College basketball has a much bigger cache and it is far more likely that a random person flipping through channels is going to stop on a basketball game than a hockey game. When I used to go up and visit friends at SCCC...they may have watched the Huskies play hockey but they watched the Gophers play basketball and football. (they would cheer Gopher football scores at the National Concrete Center) Its just not the same.
 

Im still not sure I follow the "exceeded expectations" argument as one that is favorable to the coach.

Between our coach's first three years with the team, how we looked out of conference, and the roster the coach built, people's predictions as to how we would perform in the big ten were so low that a 7-11 big ten record significantly overperformed those expectations. I understand everything I've said so far. Where I get lost is how all of that translates into something that is presented as a counter argument to those criticizing the coach.
 

Ben might be elite,
Dave H said:
Yeah I remember when people on the old Gopher Hockey Board (POI) thought that when Sid said Basketball was bigger...and it just isnt the case. When Gopher basketball is good, it honestly owns the market. I remember under Clem when NIT runs were must see TV. I remember when in chats on GPL Rick Pizzo would pop in from time to time and give us the break down of how it all worked...and it was quite eye opening.

The thing is, that hockey is niche even here and college hockey is a niche of a niche. There is almost zero casual engagement so its really rather maxed out. College basketball has a much bigger cache and it is far more likely that a random person flipping through channels is going to stop on a basketball game than a hockey game. When I used to go up and visit friends at SCCC...they may have watched the Huskies play hockey but they watched the Gophers play basketball and football. (they would cheer Gopher football scores at the National Concrete Center) Its just not the same.
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Minnesota didn't have an NHL team during Clem's run either.
 




TwistingMyMelon said:
Good post. Ben Johnson may or may not be renewed here but you can't have it both ways. You can't say: "He's the worst coach in the league and won't beat anybody" and then still say he's the worst coach in the league if he finishes above 5 or 6 teams.

Of course, that rule assumes that people will have honesty, objectivity, and integrity and most of these people have none of those. Most of them aren't very bright either.
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Sorry but that is just not true. If his numbers over the course of 4 seasons are the worst that is more telling than if he has a season where he wins a few more games than a couple other coaches.

Lets say over 4 years he averaged finishing in the bottom 3. Unless all three bottom dwellers are the same and finish in the same position each year chances are he is, overall, going to be the worst of the bunch.

Here...over the course of Ben Johnson's tenure who has been consistently a worse coach than him? Whose record is he better than? Who does he usually outcoach? I mean this honestly. How many teams in the Big Ten would trade coaches with us? Power 5? Hell mid-major?
 

disco said:
Hockey did do well TV-wise when they had their own contract with then Fox Sports North. The WCHA schedule was like clockwork - they played Friday and Saturday nights at the same time almost every week. You could go into any random bar with TV's and there was a good chance you'd see Gopher Hockey on a Fri or Sat. Like it or not, the B1G messed that part up, even if attendance has finally come back.

But overall, people in this state don't really recognize that college hockey is a very niche, very regional sport. Like baseball and softball in the SE and California, and lacrosse in the NE and Mid-Atlantic, there really isn't a lot of national interest in college hockey. Attendance figures bear this out. ND, Wisconsin and Minnesota are really the only teams that draw significantly.
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Yup...and the truth is...viewership wasn't all that much better it was just easier for MSC or FSN to justify the coverage since they are regional networks. 125k Minnesotans watching a game between the Gophers and SCCC on a local network is way different than 150k people across a National Network watching a matchup between Minnesota and Ohio State.
 





ShushPush said:
I like his premise that many in this conversation have magical thinking that if we spinkle a little pixie dust on a new coach, the team will transform from mice to wild stallions. Termination envy is hard way to go through life.
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As opposed to keeping around the coach who has shown he can, at best, coach ok for half a season?

Let me ask you something...do you not want more wins for your investment? I mean aren't we overpaying for like 7 conference wins?

No matter how much you pretend otherwise no one is pretending we will be contenders just cause we fire Ben Johnson. But there is almost no chance we will be worse because it would be almost impossible. I guess I would rather win more games. You would rather sit around whining about how we can't. That is your prerogative, but it is a sad way to go through life.
 
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jamiche said:
People live here and enjoy it for many reasons outside of gopher hoops.

Take a look at the records four years ago before you say it was preposterous to put us below NU, Rutgers and PSU.

Nobody is cheering Davis' comments. Just acknowledging reality. No self hate involved. The reason Coyle and the administration have gotten away with this for so long is their failure to acknowledge the reality of the situation and do anything about it. The program had no energy long before Johnson was hired.
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Not going to pick your post apart, but it's faulty. In Pitino's last year, the Gophs peaked at #17 (!) before injuries hit and the bottom dropped out. Because of how the season ended and based on Richard's total body of work here, it was sort of easy for Coyle to make the move and bring in his own guy.

But I remember that last year. Can you imagine how we'd fucking lose our minds if the Gophers were even receiving votes in the national polls, much less ranked in the top 20? Neither the on-court performance nor the arena atmosphere have been the same since. It totally cratered when Johnson was hired and the entire team quit as a result. Even the occasional big-win moments have been muted by the overall lack of success and fan ennui. The fans know this is going nowhere, and there's only so much enthusiasm they can muster up in light of that.

I was not a huge supporter of Pitino by the end, for all the reasons that were discussed at the time, including and especially roster management. But I would take that situation back in an instant. These last four years have been a disaster in almost every way. It's now a legitimate question of whether Humpty Dumpty can be put back together again. A decade ago, I never thought that would even be a possibility.
 
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Bad Gopher said:
Not going to pick your post apart, but it's faulty. In Pitino's last year, the Gophs peaked at #17 (!) before injuries hit and the bottom dropped out. Because of how the season ended and based on Richard's total body of work here, it was sort of easy for Coyle to make the move and bring in his own guy.

But I remember that last year. It was far from the heyday of the Clem years, but the win against Michigan was a rocking atmosphere far and away beyond anything we've experienced since. And can you imagine how we'd fucking lose our minds if the Gophers were even receiving votes in the national polls, much less ranked in the top 20? Neither the on-court success nor the arena atmosphere have been the same since. It totally cratered when Johnson was hired and the entire team quit as a result. Even the occasional big-win moments have been muted by the overall lack of success and fan ennui. The fans know this is going nowhere, and there's only so much enthusiasm they can muster up in light of that.

I was not a huge supporter of Pitino by the end, for all the reasons that were discussed at the time, including and especially roster management. But I would take that situation back in an instant. These last four years have been a disaster in almost every way. It's now a legitimate question of whether Humpty Dumpty can be put back together again. A decade ago, I never thought that would even be a possibility.
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This post should be copied and pasted in every thread where people pretend things can't be better. Pitino was a mediocre coach here and deserved his fate but the program under him >>>>> program under Johnson. Pitino made postseasons, Pitino won an NIT, Pitino won an NCAA game. Pitino had a winning conference record once. Every one of those things trumps everything Johnson has done.
 


Bad Gopher said:
Not going to pick your post apart, but it's faulty. In Pitino's last year, the Gophs peaked at #17 (!) before injuries hit and the bottom dropped out. Because of how the season ended and based on Richard's total body of work here, it was sort of easy for Coyle to make the move and bring in his own guy.

But I remember that last year. It was far from the heyday of the Clem years, but the win against Michigan was a rocking atmosphere far and away beyond anything we've experienced since. And can you imagine how we'd fucking lose our minds if the Gophers were even receiving votes in the national polls, much less ranked in the top 20? Neither the on-court success nor the arena atmosphere have been the same since. It totally cratered when Johnson was hired and the entire team quit as a result. Even the occasional big-win moments have been muted by the overall lack of success and fan ennui. The fans know this is going nowhere, and there's only so much enthusiasm they can muster up in light of that.

I was not a huge supporter of Pitino by the end, for all the reasons that were discussed at the time, including and especially roster management. But I would take that situation back in an instant. These last four years have been a disaster in almost every way. It's now a legitimate question of whether Humpty Dumpty can be put back together again. A decade ago, I never thought that would even be a possibility.
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Ennui doesn’t belong on a message board. If I can’t preach it, you can’t type it!
 



jamiche said:
For all the DEI folks, let it go. Nobody you wanted was coming. Johnson was a reasonable risk at the time and under the old rules. And. He. Fit. The. Budget. The pickings were slim. A $5M hire wasn't happening.
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I’m 100% convinced Dutcher wanted the job and it would’ve been his for the taking had other forces not intervened. The man had specific language written into his contract allowing only Minnesota to have a significantly lower buyout. He would’ve immediately upgraded the program, and he wouldn’t have cost anywhere near $5M. Unfortunately we won’t get a second bite at that apple.
 

Dave H said:
As opposed to keeping around the coach who has shown he can, at best, coach ok for half a season?

Let me ask you something...do you not want more wins for your investment? I mean aren't we overpaying for like 7 conference wins?

No matter how much you pretend otherwise no one is pretending we will be contenders just cause we fire Ben Johnson. But there is almost no chance we will be worse because it would be almost impossible. I guess I would rather win more games. You would rather sit around whining about how we can't. That is your prerogative, but it is a sad way to go through life.
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I've already presented evidence that coaching changes seldom deliver the surge of victories one might hope for. Investing more money in the hopes of turning our luck around is akin to a gambler believing that the next wager will be the winning one.
 

kg21 said:
If they hire the wrong coach......they will continually finish at the bottom of the BIG 10 and never make the tourney.

And if they really screw it up badly.......they could end up with a 21 - 54 record, about to be a 21 - 55 record, in the big 10 with the new guy.

That's probably over your head, but I gave it a shot.

I don't think we dare risk making a move.

You can only go down from where we are at, with a miniscule chance of going up.
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Another trope of "probably over your head." I would be a rich man if I had rights to that language.
 




Dave H said:
Lets say over 4 years he averaged finishing in the bottom 3. Unless all three bottom dwellers are the same and finish in the same position each year chances are he is, overall, going to be the worst of the bunch.
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His first two years are no longer relevant. He was hired with no head coaching experience, no team in place, and bottom-of-the barrel NIL. Scott Drew was 36-69 in his first four years at Baylor. I guess it's a good thing Baylor didn't apply your reasoning to a retention decision back then. And I don't want hear about Drew's accomplishments. I'm well aware of them. At 68, I probably know more basketball history than you. I also worked in a quantitative field for many years and have two advanced degrees so I don't need lessons in understanding averages.

Look, this isn't all about Ben Johnson. An international history expert once said that the ultimate targets of an insurrection are one's own people. That also applies to message boards. What's happened here is that the assholes who have mocked and bitched about Ben Johnson constantly for the last three years have produced the opposite effect: sympathy for him. When we defend Ben Johnson, we're actually attacking them.
 
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MaxyJR1 said:
Beat Rutgers and possibly finish 11th out of 18 when picked 18th after completing revamping the roster.

That would be 17-23 over the last two seasons. The first two years really would skew things.

I get people want a fresh start, but it wouldn’t be unprecedented to give him another year.
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That was stated simply and well. I think Johnson has more work to do this season to have a fair claim for retention but, if he pulls off a fair season and a pretty good postseason, I think he may have that argument. And, as you say, it wouldn't be unprecedented.
 

ShushPush said:
I've already presented evidence that coaching changes seldom deliver the surge of victories one might hope for. Investing more money in the hopes of turning our luck around is akin to a gambler believing that the next wager will be the winning one.
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If i could get even money that the next coach has a better B1G record than Johnson does, i would take that wager in an instant.
 

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