Seth Davis: Ben Johnson has done an incredible job with this team. One of the elite coaches in one of the toughest jobs in America.

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ShushPush said:
I've already presented evidence that coaching changes seldom deliver the surge of victories one might hope for. Investing more money in the hopes of turning our luck around is akin to a gambler believing that the next wager will be the winning one.
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Good god your takes are terrible. Like awful. Sad even.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Beat Rutgers and possibly finish 11th out of 18 when picked 18th after completing revamping the roster.

That would be 17-23 over the last two seasons. The first two years really would skew things.

I get people want a fresh start, but it wouldn’t be unprecedented to give him another year.
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They would be completely revamping the roster next year minus Garcia.

I get goosebumps just thinking about it.

I hope you do, also, Maxy!
 


jamiche said:
The first part of Davis' comment is not true. Ben has not done a "fantastic job" and hasn't done enough to keep his job. The second part of the statement is true. It's one of the worst P5 jobs and probably the worst job in the B1G.

For all the DEI folks, let it go. Nobody you wanted was coming. Johnson was a reasonable risk at the time and under the old rules. And. He. Fit. The. Budget. The pickings were slim. A $5M hire wasn't happening.

The guys who transferred out last year are not killing it. JOJ, Payne, Carrington and Hawkins are performing at or below last year's numbers, except for their bank accounts--presumably.

It would amuse me to see Coyle hire another black coach who would then hire an all female staff. The DEI's heads would explode. (Sarcasm alert.)
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My understanding of DEI on paper is like this: you have finalist pool of five applicants, three are white and two are black. They are all equally qualified. Then, you should give a bump to the black applicants.

But that's not even what supposedly what happened here. Supposedly, Gable just plain said that Coyle was not allowed to talk to anyone but black candidates.
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
His first two years are no longer relevant. He was hired with no head coaching experience, no team in place, and bottom-of-the barrel NIL. Scott Drew was 36-69 in his first four years at Baylor. I guess it's a good thing Baylor didn't apply your reasoning to a retention decision back then. And I don't want hear about Drew's accomplishments. I'm well aware of them. At 68, I probably know more basketball history than you. I also worked in a quantitative field for many years and have two advanced degrees so I don't need lessons in understanding averages.

Look, this isn't all about Ben Johnson. An international history expert once said that the ultimate targets of an insurrection are one's own people. That also applies to message boards. What's happened here is that the assholes who have mocked and bitched about Ben Johnson constantly for the last three years have produced the opposite effect: sympathy for him. When we defend Ben Johnson, we're actually attacking them.
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Stop it. His whole tenure is relevant otherwise you risk the stupidity of making a decision based on very few reference points and that is almost always a disaster when it comes to sports. How many coaches cash in from small schools for the bigger job after a nice run in the NCAAs out of nowhere and then flame out? You have to look at all the evidence and you can't just dismiss his first two years because they drag down the average. Maybe if he was farther along in his tenure I would agree but you are saying we can't discuss half his coaching record. That is absurd.

You say you understand averages yet you are skewing the average..

Now if you want to talk about irrelevant lets discuss why Scott Drew is irrelevant to the conversation. (other than he is coaching now) Drew started coaching Baylor in 2003. (dont get me wrong that is impressive in many ways) The landscape of college basketball was completely different and likely Drew never makes it to Year 5 now and almost assuredly doesn't have the success he has had, which is unfortunate. Ben Johnson, in that era, has a much better argument for another year than he does now because he wouldn't need to remake his roster every year quite a few players (especially impact ones) would stay put unless they planned to go pro. Not all of them of course, but the majority of them. Ben would probably have a senior laden team this year like now, but many of them would have played together for multiple years they would (again in theory) have more chemistry and a better understanding of whatever it is he is trying to do. Most likely his classes are better balanced as well. If basketball was still as it was in the early 2000s my guess is Ben runs through the Non-Con pretty easy and this whole discussion isn't happening...

I have no animus for Ben (or you btw please take none of this as combative its just a discussion) just like I didn't Pitino or Tubby when it was time for them to go and if the U brings him back I probably will watch about as much as I did this year and hope for the best. We aren't the U and we aren't making the decision so we can only go by what we see and Ben Johnson is not the right coach for this program at this time. Even if you paint him in the best light (take out the first two years) his record is not impressive and he is doing that against a pathetic non conference record. With the teams he plays he should be racking up the wins and well, that doesn't happen. Last year his team got good in the middle and faded at the end, this year it was terrible for half the year and now at best up and down. Next year he will have to rebuild again meaning likely a whole lot of mid major players thrown together with duck tape and praying they beat the odds. And when the results are the same the excuses will be as well.

Let me ask you this, if this season is what the norm is going to be...is it good enough? If you think it is then by all means we should keep him. If you dont, better to cut bait and move on. JMHO.
 



Dave H said:
Stop it. His whole tenure is relevant otherwise you risk the stupidity of making a decision based on very few reference points and that is almost always a disaster when it comes to sports. How many coaches cash in from small schools for the bigger job after a nice run in the NCAAs out of nowhere and then flame out? You have to look at all the evidence and you can't just dismiss his first two years because they drag down the average. Maybe if he was farther along in his tenure I would agree but you are saying we can't discuss half his coaching record. That is absurd.

You say you understand averages yet you are skewing the average..

Now if you want to talk about irrelevant lets discuss why Scott Drew is irrelevant to the conversation. (other than he is coaching now) Drew started coaching Baylor in 2003. (dont get me wrong that is impressive in many ways) The landscape of college basketball was completely different and likely Drew never makes it to Year 5 now and almost assuredly doesn't have the success he has had, which is unfortunate. Ben Johnson, in that era, has a much better argument for another year than he does now because he wouldn't need to remake his roster every year quite a few players (especially impact ones) would stay put unless they planned to go pro. Not all of them of course, but the majority of them. Ben would probably have a senior laden team this year like now, but many of them would have played together for multiple years they would (again in theory) have more chemistry and a better understanding of whatever it is he is trying to do. Most likely his classes are better balanced as well. If basketball was still as it was in the early 2000s my guess is Ben runs through the Non-Con pretty easy and this whole discussion isn't happening...

I have no animus for Ben (or you btw please take none of this as combative its just a discussion) just like I didn't Pitino or Tubby when it was time for them to go and if the U brings him back I probably will watch about as much as I did this year and hope for the best. We aren't the U and we aren't making the decision so we can only go by what we see and Ben Johnson is not the right coach for this program at this time. Even if you paint him in the best light (take out the first two years) his record is not impressive and he is doing that against a pathetic non conference record. With the teams he plays he should be racking up the wins and well, that doesn't happen. Last year his team got good in the middle and faded at the end, this year it was terrible for half the year and now at best up and down. Next year he will have to rebuild again meaning likely a whole lot of mid major players thrown together with duck tape and praying they beat the odds. And when the results are the same the excuses will be as well.

Let me ask you this, if this season is what the norm is going to be...is it good enough? If you think it is then by all means we should keep him. If you dont, better to cut bait and move on. JMHO.
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Great post. My sentiments as well.
 

GopherGrit said:
Every year is going to be a revamped roster.

That's the new way. I don't think that's a Ben Johnson thing.
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100% of every teams roster is either Graduating, going Pro and/or a Potential Free Agent/Portal entrant.
 

GopherGrit said:
My understanding of DEI on paper is like this: you have finalist pool of five applicants, three are white and two are black. They are all equally qualified. Then, you should give a bump to the black applicants.

But that's not even what supposedly what happened here. Supposedly, Gable just plain said that Coyle was not allowed to talk to anyone but black candidates.
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If that's even true, there had to be about a hundred or more more qualified black candidates to coach this team than CBJ.
 



GopherGrit said:
My understanding of DEI on paper is like this: you have finalist pool of five applicants, three are white and two are black. They are all equally qualified. Then, you should give a bump to the black applicants.

But that's not even what supposedly what happened here. Supposedly, Gable just plain said that Coyle was not allowed to talk to anyone but black candidates.
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Nothing says unverified like the word supposedly. If you have a fact, post it. If you have unverified rumor, best keep it to yourself since it lends nothing to the discussion.
 



disco said:
If that's even true, there had to be about a hundred or more more qualified black candidates to coach this team than CBJ.
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About a hundred or more? Please share some names of those that Coyle can consider in the next coach search. I'm sure he will appreciate your help, especially if he is commanded to hire a black coach again, as some here contend, without any evidence, happened with BJ's hiring.

And I'm sure you agree that it would best to only list the names of potential black coaches who are realistic candidates. That way Coyle will consider your list as real legitimate possibilities, and you as a trusted advisor, and not just another blowhard fan who is not living in reality when it comes to potential available replacement coaches.

And if others want to contribute to the candidates list, please do so. And lets not just limit to potential black coaches, but include realistic white coach candidates as well. Who knows, maybe Coyle will be given a free reign in the next coach search.

Look forward to seeing everyone's candidate list. Thanks
 
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Instead of firing the coach they should look at why Minnesota is considered one of the most difficult jobs. It really shouldn't be as the only major school in a good sized state that produces NBA players and lots of college talent all over the USA in many seasons.

If they pay a buyout and a bunch of money for a different coach, it just persists and perhaps worsens the problems of low NIL money, heavy annual portal turnover, and all the other structural problems the job supposedly has. Having someone else build on a rotten foundation is signing up for more failure.

Though I would be okay with firing the coach too.
 

Dave H said:
Stop it. His whole tenure is relevant otherwise you risk the stupidity of making a decision based on very few reference points and that is almost always a disaster when it comes to sports. How many coaches cash in from small schools for the bigger job after a nice run in the NCAAs out of nowhere and then flame out? You have to look at all the evidence and you can't just dismiss his first two years because they drag down the average. Maybe if he was farther along in his tenure I would agree but you are saying we can't discuss half his coaching record. That is absurd.

You say you understand averages yet you are skewing the average..

Now if you want to talk about irrelevant lets discuss why Scott Drew is irrelevant to the conversation. (other than he is coaching now) Drew started coaching Baylor in 2003. (dont get me wrong that is impressive in many ways) The landscape of college basketball was completely different and likely Drew never makes it to Year 5 now and almost assuredly doesn't have the success he has had, which is unfortunate. Ben Johnson, in that era, has a much better argument for another year than he does now because he wouldn't need to remake his roster every year quite a few players (especially impact ones) would stay put unless they planned to go pro. Not all of them of course, but the majority of them. Ben would probably have a senior laden team this year like now, but many of them would have played together for multiple years they would (again in theory) have more chemistry and a better understanding of whatever it is he is trying to do. Most likely his classes are better balanced as well. If basketball was still as it was in the early 2000s my guess is Ben runs through the Non-Con pretty easy and this whole discussion isn't happening...

I have no animus for Ben (or you btw please take none of this as combative its just a discussion) just like I didn't Pitino or Tubby when it was time for them to go and if the U brings him back I probably will watch about as much as I did this year and hope for the best. We aren't the U and we aren't making the decision so we can only go by what we see and Ben Johnson is not the right coach for this program at this time. Even if you paint him in the best light (take out the first two years) his record is not impressive and he is doing that against a pathetic non conference record. With the teams he plays he should be racking up the wins and well, that doesn't happen. Last year his team got good in the middle and faded at the end, this year it was terrible for half the year and now at best up and down. Next year he will have to rebuild again meaning likely a whole lot of mid major players thrown together with duck tape and praying they beat the odds. And when the results are the same the excuses will be as well.

Let me ask you this, if this season is what the norm is going to be...is it good enough? If you think it is then by all means we should keep him. If you dont, better to cut bait and move on. JMHO.
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Great job responding to recency bias.
 

Can someone please tell me how NIL has not affected the football program as it has the basketball program? And with Basketball we are losing despite an "Excellent coach" lol

If we are going to dial up the excuse computer I just want to be sure we get our stories straight...
 



Arealgopherfan said:
About a hundred or more? Please share some names of those that Coyle can consider in the next coach search. I'm sure he will appreciate your help, especially if he is commanded to hire a black coach again, as some here contend, without any evidence, happened with BJ's hiring.

And I'm sure you agree that it would best to only list the names of potential black coaches who are realistic candidates. That way Coyle will consider your list as real legitimate possibilities, and you as a trusted advisor, and not just another blowhard fan who is not living in reality when it comes to potential available replacement coaches.

And if others want to contribute to the candidates list, please do so. And lets not just limit to potential black coaches, but include realistic white coach candidates as well. Who knows, maybe Coyle will be given a free reign in the next coach search.

Look forward to seeing everyone's candidate list. Thanks
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Hey numbnuts: There's an entire thread devoted to nothing but names of potential candidates put forward by GH posters.
 

kix4kix said:
Can someone please tell me how NIL has not affected the football program as it has the basketball program? And with Basketball we are losing despite an "Excellent coach" lol

If we are going to dial up the excuse computer I just want to be sure we get our stories straight...
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If you average out the football and basketball teams B1G conference standings the last 2 years they are nearly identical.
 

Dave H said:
Stop it. His whole tenure is relevant otherwise you risk the stupidity of making a decision based on very few reference points and that is almost always a disaster when it comes to sports. How many coaches cash in from small schools for the bigger job after a nice run in the NCAAs out of nowhere and then flame out? You have to look at all the evidence and you can't just dismiss his first two years because they drag down the average. Maybe if he was farther along in his tenure I would agree but you are saying we can't discuss half his coaching record. That is absurd.

You say you understand averages yet you are skewing the average..

Now if you want to talk about irrelevant lets discuss why Scott Drew is irrelevant to the conversation. (other than he is coaching now) Drew started coaching Baylor in 2003. (dont get me wrong that is impressive in many ways) The landscape of college basketball was completely different and likely Drew never makes it to Year 5 now and almost assuredly doesn't have the success he has had, which is unfortunate. Ben Johnson, in that era, has a much better argument for another year than he does now because he wouldn't need to remake his roster every year quite a few players (especially impact ones) would stay put unless they planned to go pro. Not all of them of course, but the majority of them. Ben would probably have a senior laden team this year like now, but many of them would have played together for multiple years they would (again in theory) have more chemistry and a better understanding of whatever it is he is trying to do. Most likely his classes are better balanced as well. If basketball was still as it was in the early 2000s my guess is Ben runs through the Non-Con pretty easy and this whole discussion isn't happening...

I have no animus for Ben (or you btw please take none of this as combative its just a discussion) just like I didn't Pitino or Tubby when it was time for them to go and if the U brings him back I probably will watch about as much as I did this year and hope for the best. We aren't the U and we aren't making the decision so we can only go by what we see and Ben Johnson is not the right coach for this program at this time. Even if you paint him in the best light (take out the first two years) his record is not impressive and he is doing that against a pathetic non conference record. With the teams he plays he should be racking up the wins and well, that doesn't happen. Last year his team got good in the middle and faded at the end, this year it was terrible for half the year and now at best up and down. Next year he will have to rebuild again meaning likely a whole lot of mid major players thrown together with duck tape and praying they beat the odds. And when the results are the same the excuses will be as well.

Let me ask you this, if this season is what the norm is going to be...is it good enough? If you think it is then by all means we should keep him. If you dont, better to cut bait and move on. JMHO.
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I didn't ask for a long and tedious essay and I don't want any more of them from you so "ignore list." You're certainly awful at reading your audience.
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
His first two years are no longer relevant. He was hired with no head coaching experience, no team in place, and bottom-of-the barrel NIL. Scott Drew was 36-69 in his first four years at Baylor. I guess it's a good thing Baylor didn't apply your reasoning to a retention decision back then. And I don't want hear about Drew's accomplishments. I'm well aware of them. At 68, I probably know more basketball history than you. I also worked in a quantitative field for many years and have two advanced degrees so I don't need lessons in understanding averages.

Look, this isn't all about Ben Johnson. An international history expert once said that the ultimate targets of an insurrection are one's own people. That also applies to message boards. What's happened here is that the assholes who have mocked and bitched about Ben Johnson constantly for the last three years have produced the opposite effect: sympathy for him. When we defend Ben Johnson, we're actually attacking them.
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Thank God Ben didn't have to deal with a pesky murder investigation, reduced scholarships, visits, and NO non conference play for an entire season like Drew did. Drew turned it around immediately after that nonsense.
 


LongLiveMilesTarver said:
Thank God Ben didn't have to deal with a pesky murder investigation, reduced scholarships, visits, and NO non conference play for an entire season like Drew did. Drew turned it around immediately after that nonsense.
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Not immediately. My intent wasn't to compare Johnson to Drew. I'd explain my intent if I felt that you were worth an explanation.
 


kix4kix said:
Can someone please tell me how NIL has not affected the football program as it has the basketball program? And with Basketball we are losing despite an "Excellent coach" lol

If we are going to dial up the excuse computer I just want to be sure we get our stories straight...
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Fleck established an extremely demanding and commitment based culture in football before the NIL chaos. He had years to cultivate it to the point where, once you're in, it's very hard to leave because of the amount of buy-in required and how pervasive it is amongst the entire team. It's also very authentic, as numerous players who have left have commented on how it developed them as contributors to society outside of football and haven't had anything but positive things to say aside one player who never amounted to anything after leaving and was a social media diva.

I absolutely believe that the football program would be struggling mightily if Fleck came in at the same time as Johnson. I'm not making excuses for Johnson at all, but imo NIL is a hugely debilitating factor to any nontraditional hoops or football power trying to get to the next level and who have hired a new coach since it's come into play, especially if that program is hiring a new coach due to a lack of success by the previous one.

I think we'll continue to be a revolving door for above average to excellent players with whoever the next coach is because if a traditional power wants them, they'll take them from us. We saw that last year. There's not enough regulation in NIL to create the kind of culture Fleck has in football in this basketball program (or for any other program at our level) unless you're relying solely on finding a coach who is going to turn low 3 star guys into 4 star players. Johnson is an easy target because the buck stops with him, but the national landscape is currently built to keep mediocre programs mediocre unless they can convince a high tier guy who is qualified to coach at a major power to come here. I don't see this admin doing that.
 

mngg11 said:
Fleck established an extremely demanding and commitment based culture in football before the NIL chaos. He had years to cultivate it to the point where, once you're in, it's very hard to leave because of the amount of buy-in required and how pervasive it is amongst the entire team. It's also very authentic, as numerous players who have left have commented on how it developed them as contributors to society outside of football and haven't had anything but positive things to say aside one player who never amounted to anything after leaving and was a social media diva.

I absolutely believe that the football program would be struggling mightily if Fleck came in at the same time as Johnson. I'm not making excuses for Johnson at all, but imo NIL is a hugely debilitating factor to any nontraditional hoops or football power trying to get to the next level and who have hired a new coach since it's come into play, especially if that program is hiring a new coach due to a lack of success by the previous one.

I think we'll continue to be a revolving door for above average to excellent players with whoever the next coach is because if a traditional power wants them, they'll take them from us. We saw that last year. There's not enough regulation in NIL to create the kind of culture Fleck has in football in this basketball program (or for any other program at our level) unless you're relying solely on finding a coach who is going to turn low 3 star guys into 4 star players. Johnson is an easy target because the buck stops with him, but the national landscape is currently built to keep mediocre programs mediocre unless they can convince a high tier guy who is qualified to coach at a major power to come here. I don't see this admin doing that.
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What a crock of shit. Jeebus.
 

disco said:
If that's even true, there had to be about a hundred or more more qualified black candidates to coach this team than CBJ.
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I think that's where other people have been laying the blame on Coyle.

Like what I said earlier, I think he is partially a victim of timing -- at that exact moment the idea of getting a guy in here to recruit the crap out of Twin Cities major prospects could have made sense. Then NIL and the portal blew that up.

And partially a victim of his own ego for picking "up and coming" coaches.


To jamiche's other point though, which of those candidates was even interested in coming here for an interview? Not challenging you to name names, I have no idea myself.
 

Arealgopherfan said:
Nothing says unverified like the word supposedly. If you have a fact, post it. If you have unverified rumor, best keep it to yourself since it lends nothing to the discussion.
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You really think Gabel kept an official record of such a directive??

My guess is it would have been a face to face discussion with no paper trail to FOIA.
 

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