Seth Davis: Ben Johnson has done an incredible job with this team. One of the elite coaches in one of the toughest jobs in America.

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mngg11 said:
Fleck established an extremely demanding and commitment based culture in football before the NIL chaos. He had years to cultivate it to the point where, once you're in, it's very hard to leave because of the amount of buy-in required and how pervasive it is amongst the entire team. It's also very authentic, as numerous players who have left have commented on how it developed them as contributors to society outside of football and haven't had anything but positive things to say aside one player who never amounted to anything after leaving and was a social media diva.

I absolutely believe that the football program would be struggling mightily if Fleck came in at the same time as Johnson. I'm not making excuses for Johnson at all, but imo NIL is a hugely debilitating factor to any nontraditional hoops or football power trying to get to the next level and who have hired a new coach since it's come into play, especially if that program is hiring a new coach due to a lack of success by the previous one.

I think we'll continue to be a revolving door for above average to excellent players with whoever the next coach is because if a traditional power wants them, they'll take them from us. We saw that last year. There's not enough regulation in NIL to create the kind of culture Fleck has in football in this basketball program (or for any other program at our level) unless you're relying solely on finding a coach who is going to turn low 3 star guys into 4 star players. Johnson is an easy target because the buck stops with him, but the national landscape is currently built to keep mediocre programs mediocre unless they can convince a high tier guy who is qualified to coach at a major power to come here. I don't see this admin doing that.
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I absolutely disagree with your take that PJ would've struggled if he came in at the same time as Johnson. When PJ was hired, there was an enormous amount of energy and positivity about the hire. He was coming off an amazing season at Western MI having gone to the Cotton Bowl. The $$$ would have been flowing in for NIL to support him. The fact that the energy with the football team has plateaued since that time and PJ has still managed to wade his way through the NIL is a credit to him and his ability to smooze and continue to sell his program. The whole "Row The Boat" etc has given him a brand and, like him or not, he hustles and relates to boosters.

I'm always confused by the people on here that say NIL is such a problem here compared to other programs. The problem is IMO, Johnson is boring and there is. a general lack of excitement and hope surrounding the program. Who is going to contribute to that???? There is PLENTY of $$$ in the TC market for NIL to work here. The new hire needs to be someone who is part coach, and part car salesman who is willing and able to not only recruit players, but NIL sponsors.
 


TwistingMyMelon said:
I didn't ask for a long and tedious essay and I don't want any more of them from you so "ignore list." You're certainly awful at reading your audience.
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Interesting response. Seems a bit over the top and irrational but since you are ignoring me (for discussing the counterpoints to the points you made) I guess it doesn't matter what I say. I usually enjoyed your posts but hey whatever makes your day better man.
 

mngg11 said:
Fleck established an extremely demanding and commitment based culture in football before the NIL chaos. He had years to cultivate it to the point where, once you're in, it's very hard to leave because of the amount of buy-in required and how pervasive it is amongst the entire team. It's also very authentic, as numerous players who have left have commented on how it developed them as contributors to society outside of football and haven't had anything but positive things to say aside one player who never amounted to anything after leaving and was a social media diva.

I absolutely believe that the football program would be struggling mightily if Fleck came in at the same time as Johnson. I'm not making excuses for Johnson at all, but imo NIL is a hugely debilitating factor to any nontraditional hoops or football power trying to get to the next level and who have hired a new coach since it's come into play, especially if that program is hiring a new coach due to a lack of success by the previous one.

I think we'll continue to be a revolving door for above average to excellent players with whoever the next coach is because if a traditional power wants them, they'll take them from us. We saw that last year. There's not enough regulation in NIL to create the kind of culture Fleck has in football in this basketball program (or for any other program at our level) unless you're relying solely on finding a coach who is going to turn low 3 star guys into 4 star players. Johnson is an easy target because the buck stops with him, but the national landscape is currently built to keep mediocre programs mediocre unless they can convince a high tier guy who is qualified to coach at a major power to come here. I don't see this admin doing that.
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That is probably less than half of why Fleck is successful when it comes to NIL. Fleck promotes the program and NIL and that is the larger factor. All the things most of the media and the average Minnesotan finds annoying about Fleck (self promotion, quirky phrases, going on national media...etc) is exactly what works in the NIL era. Plus, he has had some very big time wins which have also helped.

Johnson does none of that and it is hampering him. It is just not his style.

(I find it annoying that it is needed FWIW but that is the way it works now)
 


Dave H said:
That is probably less than half of why Fleck is successful when it comes to NIL. Fleck promotes the program and NIL and that is the larger factor. All the things most of the media and the average Minnesotan finds annoying about Fleck (self promotion, quirky phrases, going on national media...etc) is exactly what works in the NIL era. Plus, he has had some very big time wins which have also helped.

Johnson does none of that and it is hampering him. It is just not his style.

(I find it annoying that it is needed FWIW but that is the way it works now)
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While it was pre-NIL, I think this was the main reason they couldn't/wouldn't keep Tracey Claeys as head coach. He was not the kind of coach who could sell anything to anyone.

There was also the sex scandal thing with the players, but I think he knew the writing was on the wall even before he spoke out.
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
Scott Drew was 36-69 in his first four years at Baylor. I guess it's a good thing Baylor didn't apply your reasoning to a retention decision back then.
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It is a little disingenuous to compare the situation Scott Drew walked into at Baylor to what Ben Johnson inherited at Minnesota.

If anyone needs a history on Baylor men's basketball in 2003, go search it.

Short version, one player on the roster murdered another player on the roster. There was an attempted cover-up of many things, including repulsive behavior by most of the roster. The entire program was cleaned out, coaches fired, players kicked out, everyone gone. People went to jail.

So, no one wanted to take the Baylor job in 2003, two months before the season started. But, Scott Drew took it. Baylor had NCAA penalties, a scholarship reduction, no off-campus recruiting, some of those penalties lasting through 2010. Baylor wasn't even allowed to play a non-conference schedule in 2005 as part of the penalties. So, he was going to have a LONG rope and he made the most of it because he was excellent and because the school and fans committed to the basketball program.

Ben Johnson walked into nothing like that. In fact, the program he inherited was ranked #17 in the nation just 59 days before he was hired at head coach.
 

tjgopher said:
It is a little disingenuous to compare the situation Scott Drew walked into at Baylor to what Ben Johnson inherited at Minnesota.

If anyone needs a history on Baylor men's basketball in 2003, go search it.

Short version, one player on the roster murdered another player on the roster. There was an attempted cover-up of many things, including repulsive behavior by most of the roster. The entire program was cleaned out, coaches fired, players kicked out, everyone gone. People went to jail.

So, no one wanted to take the Baylor job in 2003, two months before the season started. But, Scott Drew took it. Baylor had NCAA penalties, a scholarship reduction, no off-campus recruiting, some of those penalties lasting through 2010. Baylor wasn't even allowed to play a non-conference schedule in 2005 as part of the penalties. So, he was going to have a LONG rope and he made the most of it because he was excellent and because the school and fans committed to the basketball program.

Ben Johnson walked into nothing like that. In fact, the program he inherited was ranked #17 in the nation just 59 days before he was hired at head coach.
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Shitformelon claims he wasn't comparing Drew and Johnson. Right after he compared Drew and Johnson.
 

tjgopher said:
Ben Johnson walked into nothing like that. In fact, the program he inherited was ranked #17 in the nation just 59 days before he was hired at head coach.
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Your overall post is totally right.

That last ine is a bit much, given how that team was .300 in the big ten and .483 overall.

Now that was his 8th year and about as underperforming as a team can get.
 



atsgopher said:
Your overall post is totally right.

That last ine is a bit much, given how that team was .300 in the big ten and .483 overall.

Now that was his 8th year and about as underperforming as a team can get.
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Yep, that team was actually ranked 16th at one point, with several impressive wins, including one over the eventual #4 overall seed in the NCAA tourney, the #7 overall seed in the NCAA tourney and three other ranked teams.

Then Liam Robbins got hurt. Gabe Kalscheur got hurt. And they went 3-11 to finish the year.

That said, the day Ben Johnson was hired, these players were on the Gopher roster with eligibility remaining. Ben Johnson failed to keep ANY of them on the team.

Marcus Carr (future 1st team All-Big 12 Player)
Liam Robbins (future SEC Defensive Player of the Year)
Gabe Kalscheuer (future 2nd-team all-Big 12 Player)
Jamal Mashburn (future 1st team all-MWC Player)
Brandon Johnson (Gopher starter)
Both Gach (Gopher starter)
Tre Williams (Gopher bench player)

The cupboard wasn't that bare.
 

tjgopher said:
Yep, that team was actually ranked 16th at one point, with several impressive wins, including one over the eventual #4 overall seed in the NCAA tourney, the #7 overall seed in the NCAA tourney and three other ranked teams.

Then Liam Robbins got hurt. Gabe Kalscheur got hurt. And they went 3-11 to finish the year.

That said, the day Ben Johnson was hired, these players were on the Gopher roster with eligibility remaining. Ben Johnson failed to keep ANY of them on the team.

Marcus Carr (future 1st team All-Big 12 Player)
Liam Robbins (future SEC Defensive Player of the Year)
Gabe Kalscheuer (future 2nd-team all-Big 12 Player)
Jamal Mashburn (future 1st team all-MWC Player)
Brandon Johnson (Gopher starter)
Both Gach (Gopher starter)
Tre Williams (Gopher bench player)

The cupboard wasn't that bare.
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And yet the revisionist narrative is that he inhereted an "empty roster." That's a damn lie, and it needs to be called out as a lie wherever it's uttered.
 

Bad Gopher said:
And yet the revisionist narrative is that he inhereted an "empty roster." That's a damn lie, and it needs to be called out as a lie wherever it's uttered.
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Ben should have instantly hired Robbins' uncle to keep him. IIRC was Ben holding out for an assistant who had a stud player son who was a package deal- then that fell through?
 

bga1 said:
Ben should have instantly hired Robbins' uncle to keep him. IIRC was Ben holding out for an assistant who had a stud player son who was a package deal- then that fell through?
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I believe they thought they had Garcia coming year 1 but he took the bag from UNC instead
 




bga1 said:
Ben should have instantly hired Robbins' uncle to keep him. IIRC was Ben holding out for an assistant who had a stud player son who was a package deal- then that fell through?
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The U wouldn’t sponser his Visa. He was from Toronto.
 






TwistingMyMelon said:
His first two years are no longer relevant. He was hired with no head coaching experience, no team in place, and bottom-of-the barrel NIL. Scott Drew was 36-69 in his first four years at Baylor. I guess it's a good thing Baylor didn't apply your reasoning to a retention decision back then. And I don't want hear about Drew's accomplishments. I'm well aware of them. At 68, I probably know more basketball history than you. I also worked in a quantitative field for many years and have two advanced degrees so I don't need lessons in understanding averages.

Look, this isn't all about Ben Johnson. An international history expert once said that the ultimate targets of an insurrection are one's own people. That also applies to message boards. What's happened here is that the assholes who have mocked and bitched about Ben Johnson constantly for the last three years have produced the opposite effect: sympathy for him. When we defend Ben Johnson, we're actually attacking them.
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68 years of age with more BB history than most and yet you fail to mention what Scott Drew had to endure his first 4 years at Baylor. Since you are a transplant here in MN you really don't have the knowledge you claim to have regarding MN BB.
 

RockChalk said:
68 years of age with more BB history than most and yet you fail to mention what Scott Drew had to endure his first 4 years at Baylor. Since you are a transplant here in MN you really don't have the knowledge you claim to have regarding MN BB.
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Twistedmelons is also 68!
 

mngg11 said:
Fleck established an extremely demanding and commitment based culture in football before the NIL chaos. He had years to cultivate it to the point where, once you're in, it's very hard to leave because of the amount of buy-in required and how pervasive it is amongst the entire team. It's also very authentic, as numerous players who have left have commented on how it developed them as contributors to society outside of football and haven't had anything but positive things to say aside one player who never amounted to anything after leaving and was a social media diva.

I absolutely believe that the football program would be struggling mightily if Fleck came in at the same time as Johnson. I'm not making excuses for Johnson at all, but imo NIL is a hugely debilitating factor to any nontraditional hoops or football power trying to get to the next level and who have hired a new coach since it's come into play, especially if that program is hiring a new coach due to a lack of success by the previous one.

I think we'll continue to be a revolving door for above average to excellent players with whoever the next coach is because if a traditional power wants them, they'll take them from us. We saw that last year. There's not enough regulation in NIL to create the kind of culture Fleck has in football in this basketball program (or for any other program at our level) unless you're relying solely on finding a coach who is going to turn low 3 star guys into 4 star players. Johnson is an easy target because the buck stops with him, but the national landscape is currently built to keep mediocre programs mediocre unless they can convince a high tier guy who is qualified to coach at a major power to come here. I don't see this admin doing that.
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No offense but if you can't say it in two sentences I know it's nonsense
 

kix4kix said:
No offense but if you can't say it in two sentences I know it's nonsense
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I'm sorry you let tiktok ruin your capability to understand and contribute gainfully to productive discourse if it isn't a 12 second recap. Don't worry though, eventually we'll die out and you won't need to deal with the inconveniences of reading comprehension or critical thinking cultivated by the generations before you. Best of luck!
 



mngg11 said:
I'm sorry you let tiktok ruin your capability to understand and contribute gainfully to productive discourse if it isn't a 12 second recap. Don't worry though, eventually we'll die out and you won't need to deal with the inconveniences of reading comprehension or critical thinking cultivated by the generations before you. Best of luck!
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3 sentences! Closer....Even if they are run on sentences
 




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