POLL: Will UST have a better KenPom ranking than our Gophs at all during the 2022-23 season?

Will UST have a better KenPom ranking than our Gophs at all during the 2022-23 season?


  • Total voters
    63
  • Poll closed .

ethomasp31

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
1,397
Reaction score
783
Points
113
I've limited it to the last 10 years because recruiting has changed significantly just in the last 3 years, let alone the last 10. Scott Drew has been discussed a lot on here, and what he took over at Baylor was nothing remotely comparable to here.

We can compare PJ if you'd like though. What he did on the recruiting trail in the first 3 weeks on the job here has lapped what Ben has done in 1.5 years several times over. He won a bowl game in year 2, won 11 games and finished in the top 10 in year 3, despite turning over 85% of an 85 scholarship roster.

For comparison's sake, Ben would need to be a bubble team this year, and make an elite 8 run next year, and only has 13 scholarships to manage.
PJ won the last regular season game at Wisconsin his second year to avoid back to back 5-7 seasons. When Ben Johnson got here we had no one on the team after the players had left. And honestly we only had a few who I would have wanted to keep and they weren’t going to be staying here. I think Johnson has done a pretty good job recruiting since he has been here. He have a great class coming in and this last class was also very good. That’s not counting Garcia and Battle. A lot of schools also wanted Parker Fox, but unfortunately he hadn’t been able to play here yet. Johnson has built relationships with coaches in the state that the last coach had totally messed up. Missing out on Winter (and Robison) had more to do with what had happened here the previous 7 years than it did with Ben Johnson. Plus…i think we are in pretty good shape even without Winter on next years class. I know the U did make him a priority though.
 

GopherWeatherGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
13,101
Reaction score
9,465
Points
113
PJ won the last regular season game at Wisconsin his second year to avoid back to back 5-7 seasons. When Ben Johnson got here we had no one on the team after the players had left. And honestly we only had a few who I would have wanted to keep and they weren’t going to be staying here. I think Johnson has done a pretty good job recruiting since he has been here. He have a great class coming in and this last class was also very good. That’s not counting Garcia and Battle. A lot of schools also wanted Parker Fox, but unfortunately he hadn’t been able to play here yet. Johnson has built relationships with coaches in the state that the last coach had totally messed up. Missing out on Winter (and Robison) had more to do with what had happened here the previous 7 years than it did with Ben Johnson. Plus…i think we are in pretty good shape even without Winter on next years class. I know the U did make him a priority though.

Completely false, and people like you need to stop repeating this disinformation. There were only 2 people in the portal when Ben arrived, Carr and Mashburn. Everyone else would enter the portal in the weeks after he was the coach here.
 

ethomasp31

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
1,397
Reaction score
783
Points
113
Completely false, and people like you need to stop repeating this disinformation. There were only 2 people in the portal when Ben arrived, Carr and Mashburn. Everyone else would enter the portal in the weeks after he was the coach here.
Who would you have wanted who was left?
 


GopherWeatherGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
13,101
Reaction score
9,465
Points
113
Who would you have wanted who was left?

Carr, Robbins, Gabe, Brandon Johnson, Mashburn, Gach would have all helped this team last year, and potentially this year. And I get that some were likely going to leave regardless, but you could have said that about a lot of players and coaches in similar situations.

Several of Indiana's players were in the portal or potentially going pro when Woodson was hired, including TJD and Race, but he convinced them to come back and they made the tournament in year 1.

Winfield Jr had 1000 reasons to leave after having his name publicly dragged through the mud for no reason, and he would have had a lot of other options. PJ convinced him to stay. He convinced his B1G caliber players at WM to commit to the Gophers without ever seeing campus. That's great recruiting and set the foundation to the success he's had.

Seeing players who Ben had relationships leave the Gophers after he was hired, and that he couldn't convince anyone he had relationships with at Xavier to transfer here, was a big red flag IMO.
 




Wet_Blanket_Guy

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 13, 2019
Messages
728
Reaction score
538
Points
93
Every example you give, yet you won’t give examples?

I would love to hear examples of coaches within the last 10 years who have had a tough couple of years and went on to be very successful.
And I think the bar would be (regardless of clcircumstances):
-year 1: last in conference
-year 2: (last or 2nd to last in conference) *this is likely*
-year 3: 10th? Next years recruiting class according to 247sporta is still ranked 7th in the B10

How many coaches survive 3 years like that? Where are the examples of all these coaches who struggled like this then survived to turn the program around and become really good coaches.
 

ethomasp31

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
1,397
Reaction score
783
Points
113
Carr, Robbins, Gabe, Brandon Johnson, Mashburn, Gach would have all helped this team last year, and potentially this year. And I get that some were likely going to leave regardless, but you could have said that about a lot of players and coaches in similar situations.

Several of Indiana's players were in the portal or potentially going pro when Woodson was hired, including TJD and Race, but he convinced them to come back and they made the tournament in year 1.

Winfield Jr had 1000 reasons to leave after having his name publicly dragged through the mud for no reason, and he would have had a lot of other options. PJ convinced him to stay. He convinced his B1G caliber players at WM to commit to the Gophers without ever seeing campus. That's great recruiting and set the foundation to the success he's had.

Seeing players who Ben had relationships leave the Gophers after he was hired, and that he couldn't convince anyone he had relationships with at Xavier to transfer here, was a big red flag IMO.
None of the players we would have wanted were going to stay. I also disagree on some of the players you would have wanted to keep. The only things similar to Indiana’s situation and ours was we both had new coaches. And you want to talk about bad comparisons???
 



ethomasp31

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
1,397
Reaction score
783
Points
113
And I think the bar would be (regardless of clcircumstances):
-year 1: last in conference
-year 2: (last or 2nd to last in conference) *this is likely*
-year 3: 10th? Next years recruiting class according to 247sporta is still ranked 7th in the B10

How many coaches survive 3 years like that? Where are the examples of all these coaches who struggled like this then survived to turn the program around and become really good coaches.
Scott Drew
 

MonikerSchmoniker45

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2020
Messages
1,665
Reaction score
1,098
Points
113
What a dumb take, wow. Yeah, Tauer paid for UST to go D1. Another hot take.

First off, Tauer was hired for a D3 job not a Big 10 job.
  • He was an assistant for 11 years
  • Then was hired as a D3 coach and then dominated D3 to a point where they moved to D1 and have done pretty good.
  • Get this - - even at this point - - I don't think Tauer as the resume to get a Big 10 job.
  • He had a great resume for a D3 job and has clearly done a really nice job there.

Second, the take that Tauer beat up on worse competition is as bad of a take as anyone has ever had. It would be like saying Rambis is a better coach than Jay Wright because Rambis faced real competition in the NBA. You play and beat who is on your schedule. He is now doing alright in D1 with the majority of his roster being D3 kids. LOL. So now he's beating decent competition with D3 kids. Yep, another swing and a miss from the captain of sizzling hot takes.

Ben was handed the job. That's not his fault, I don't blame him for the decision. The fact is that he couldn't get a lower level job. This would be like if Tauer couldn't get a HS coaching job and then was handed the UST job.
Not sure how going from a D1 assistant to a D1 head coach isn't earning your job. Tauer coached for one school, that he went to, played scrubs for a decade and is now a D1 coach. CBJ showed for 40 minutes why he's earned his job. Did you listen?
 

Johnnyboy18

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2012
Messages
4,270
Reaction score
1,097
Points
113
And I think the bar would be (regardless of clcircumstances):
-year 1: last in conference
-year 2: (last or 2nd to last in conference) *this is likely*
-year 3: 10th? Next years recruiting class according to 247sporta is still ranked 7th in the B10

How many coaches survive 3 years like that? Where are the examples of all these coaches who struggled like this then survived to turn the program around and become really good coaches.
Literally every coach. Coaches are rarely fired after 3 years dumb blanket.

They're ranked 7th because they took 2 players while every other team above them took more players. I know you're not very smart or consistent but at least be honest.
 

MNJay

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 8, 2022
Messages
536
Reaction score
390
Points
63
That's an opinion not a fact. The vast majority of college basketball "rebuilds" are quicker than 2 years. You can see the countless other threads of people pointing at examples.

Instant turnarounds happen with programs without much from inherited players and Ben has added a LOT of transfers (Willis, Battle, Garcia, Loewe, Stephens, Fox, Cooper, Samuels, Ogele, etc.). Please stop acting like Ben hasn't added a ton of transfers.

If you're only counting HS players, Ben's first class transferred to High Point and is getting zero minutes here.

Have whatever opinion you want, but asking other people to live in your delusion is kind of weird.
Just be clear in what you're saying.

Don't say 'rebuild' when what you really mean is 'instant winning'.

You expect instant winning. In less than 2 years from when a new coach is hired. And circumstances don't matter.
 



ethomasp31

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
1,397
Reaction score
783
Points
113
And I think the bar would be (regardless of clcircumstances):
-year 1: last in conference
-year 2: (last or 2nd to last in conference) *this is likely*
-year 3: 10th? Next years recruiting class according to 247sporta is still ranked 7th in the B10

How many coaches survive 3 years like that? Where are the examples of all these coaches who struggled like this then survived to turn the program around and become really good coaches.
So what do you think we should do….fire the coach a year and a half into coaching the Gophers? With our best class in a long time coming in next year?

What’s your deal? Are you a troll…a Pitino guy….a St Thomas guy….or just someone who is going to b&:$g and whine the whole time Johnson is coach.
 

GopherWeatherGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
13,101
Reaction score
9,465
Points
113
None of the players we would have wanted were going to stay. I also disagree on some of the players you would have wanted to keep. The only things similar to Indiana’s situation and ours was we both had new coaches. And you want to talk about bad comparisons???

Some of them absolutely could have stayed. And Indiana is a bad comparison because we had been to the NCAA tournament twice since Indiana had last been there, and they hired a coach who has never coached at the college level?
 

MNJay

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 8, 2022
Messages
536
Reaction score
390
Points
63
Literally every coach. Coaches are rarely fired after 3 years dumb blanket.

They're ranked 7th because they took 2 players while every other team above them took more players. I know you're not very smart or consistent but at least be honest.
I don't know which Wet_Blanket post to comment on. It's like wading through 💩.
 

Johnnyboy18

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2012
Messages
4,270
Reaction score
1,097
Points
113
Some of them absolutely could have stayed. And Indiana is a bad comparison because we had been to the NCAA tournament twice since Indiana had last been there, and they hired a coach who has never coached at the college level?
They're literally a college basketball blue blood. So yes it's an awful comparison and everyone knows it unless being intentionally dishonest.
 
Last edited:

MNJay

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 8, 2022
Messages
536
Reaction score
390
Points
63
What’s your deal? Are you a troll…a Pitino guy….a St Thomas guy….or just someone who is going to b&:$g and whine the whole time Johnson is coach.
He went to St. Thomas. He finally admitted that after I continually challenged him & others.
 

GopherWeatherGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
13,101
Reaction score
9,465
Points
113
They're literally a college basketball blue blood. So yes it's an awful comparison and everyone knows it unless being intentionally dishonest.

And despite that Richard Pitino had more success at Minnesota than Archie Miller did at Indiana. You still have to have a coach that can recruit and coach. With zero college experience, Woodson convinced a bunch of players to come out of the portal and back to a team who hadn't won anything and went to the NCAA tournament in year 1 for the first time in 5 seasons.

He's been an immediate upgrade for Indiana while Ben has been a downgrade from Pitino 1.5 years in.
 

Johnnyboy18

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2012
Messages
4,270
Reaction score
1,097
Points
113
And despite that Richard Pitino had more success at Minnesota than Archie Miller did at Indiana. You still have to have a coach that can recruit and coach. With zero college experience, Woodson convinced a bunch of players to come out of the portal and back to a team who hadn't won anything and went to the NCAA tournament in year 1 for the first time in 5 seasons.

He's been an immediate upgrade for Indiana while Ben has been a downgrade from Pitino 1.5 years in.
Way to ignore the point. Awful comparison.

Also Archie finished above Pitino every year he coached in the B1G besides one.
 

Bob_Loblaw

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
17,840
Reaction score
10,308
Points
113
Just be clear in what you're saying.

Don't say 'rebuild' when what you really mean is 'instant winning'.

You expect instant winning. In less than 2 years from when a new coach is hired. And circumstances don't matter.
Nope, I am saying that many teams rebuild faster. It's not the only way to rebuild but it is certainly a way many many teams do rebuild.

Are we just glossing over all of the transfers Ben has brought in?

Circumstances absolutely matter. My post wasn't even a critique of Ben, I was merely saying that some programs REBUILD on a much faster timeline than 3+ years. In fact, most teams who rebuild do it on the faster timeline. Why do they choose that route? Potentially different circumstances.

I don't expect instant winning.

If we win 6 Big 10 games this season, I will say Ben did a pretty decent job. That would mean Ben's Big 10 record would be 10-30 and I will say he did a decent job. That's an incredibly low standard. To add to that, even if Ben's team doesn't win another Big 10 game, I'll say he deserves next year. So that's incredibly patient and a REALLY low bar for acceptable basketball.
 

Bob_Loblaw

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
17,840
Reaction score
10,308
Points
113
Not sure how going from a D1 assistant to a D1 head coach isn't earning your job. Tauer coached for one school, that he went to, played scrubs for a decade and is now a D1 coach. CBJ showed for 40 minutes why he's earned his job. Did you listen?
Yeah, I watched the game. I didn't hear anything good or bad that swayed me one way or the other. I did SEE the team play really well and that definitely is a kudos to Ben. I've said it numerous times that the team played well and smart on defense and that's a testament to Ben. The way the team has played really hard the last few games is also a testament to Ben.

Hearing him mic'd up didn't do much for me other than it being interesting. I've been around a ton of basketball in my life and heard many great coaches who don't say much and some really crappy ones who constantly chatter like Ben. It wasn't interesting but didn't sway me (but it wasn't like bad or anything).

As far as you choosing to believe Ben earned the job, cool, you do that. I can't think of another Big 10 coach with a comparable resume. He was brushed off from significantly lesser jobs. He didn't earn the job. We can agree to disagree.

As far as Tauer, yeah, he was hired as a D3 coach. I don't know why you want to compare their credentials, because I agree, Ben had the resume to be a D3 coach. As far as Tauer coaching a bunch of scrubs and is now magically a D3 coach (did he pay for it? LOL), well that group of scrubs and Tauer would probably be even money against our beloved Gophers on a neutral site.

What does that say about the respective coaches? Nothing?
 

Johnnyboy18

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 30, 2012
Messages
4,270
Reaction score
1,097
Points
113
Yeah, I watched the game. I didn't hear anything good or bad that swayed me one way or the other. I did SEE the team play really well and that definitely is a kudos to Ben. I've said it numerous times that the team played well and smart on defense and that's a testament to Ben. The way the team has played really hard the last few games is also a testament to Ben.

Hearing him mic'd up didn't do much for me other than it being interesting. I've been around a ton of basketball in my life and heard many great coaches who don't say much and some really crappy ones who constantly chatter like Ben. It wasn't interesting but didn't sway me (but it wasn't like bad or anything).

As far as you choosing to believe Ben earned the job, cool, you do that. I can't think of another Big 10 coach with a comparable resume. He was brushed off from significantly lesser jobs. He didn't earn the job. We can agree to disagree.

As far as Tauer, yeah, he was hired as a D3 coach. I don't know why you want to compare their credentials, because I agree, Ben had the resume to be a D3 coach. As far as Tauer coaching a bunch of scrubs and is now magically a D3 coach (did he pay for it? LOL), well that group of scrubs and Tauer would probably be even money against our beloved Gophers on a neutral site.

What does that say about the respective coaches? Nothing?
You saying they would be even money doesn't make it true. They would slaughter them in their current form, they lost to Kansas City by 21.

Also do we still have a deal for over 4 B1G wins?
 
Last edited:

GopherWeatherGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2013
Messages
13,101
Reaction score
9,465
Points
113
Way to ignore the point. Awful comparison.

Also Archie finished above Pitino every year he coached in the B1G besides one.

He never made the NCAA tournament. Pitino did twice.

Indiana in basketball is no different than Nebraska in football. They haven't been a power in either sport for over 20 years. I know you're not going to tell me we can't compete with Nebraska in football, so why are you moving the goal posts with Indiana in basketball? It's not an awful comparison at all.
 

stocker08

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
32,625
Reaction score
16,030
Points
113
Pikiell finished last in the B1G his first two seasons, but here's the difference.

Rankings via Ken Pom, year prior to Pikiell's hiring:
Overall: 279 Offense: 303 Defense: 236
Year 1
Overall: 135 Offense: 231 Defense: 70
Year 2
Overall: 130 Offense: 270 Defense: 28

Despite the losses they were showing significant improvement, especially with Pikiell's defensive system, and you would see them win 7 games in the B1G in year 3, and remain a top 6 B1G team years 4-6.

Last year of Pitino:
Overall: 62 Offense: 76 Defense: 56
Year 1 of Ben
Overall: 109 Offense: 93 Defense: 153
Year 2 so far
Overall: 175 Offense: 196 Defense: 151

There's a lot of season left to play, but that's not an optimistic trend for Ben and the Gophers.

Such a dishonest comparison to make. Basically Pitino's entire team was gone and Ben Johnson had a couple months to slap together what he could. The years prior to them taking over is irrelevant in this case.
 

MNJay

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 8, 2022
Messages
536
Reaction score
390
Points
63
Nope, I am saying that many teams rebuild faster. It's not the only way to rebuild but it is certainly a way many many teams do rebuild.

Are we just glossing over all of the transfers Ben has brought in?

Circumstances absolutely matter. My post wasn't even a critique of Ben, I was merely saying that some programs REBUILD on a much faster timeline than 3+ years. In fact, most teams who rebuild do it on the faster timeline. Why do they choose that route? Potentially different circumstances.

I don't expect instant winning.

If we win 6 Big 10 games this season, I will say Ben did a pretty decent job. That would mean Ben's Big 10 record would be 10-30 and I will say he did a decent job. That's an incredibly low standard. To add to that, even if Ben's team doesn't win another Big 10 game, I'll say he deserves next year. So that's incredibly patient and a REALLY low bar for acceptable basketball.
You're posts aren't critiques of Ben??

You don't expect instant winning??
 

MNJay

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 8, 2022
Messages
536
Reaction score
390
Points
63
Such a dishonest comparison to make. Basically Pitino's entire team was gone and Ben Johnson had a couple months to slap together what he could. The years prior to them taking over is irrelevant in this case.
Yeah GopherWeatherGuy's posts are in the same category as Wet_Blanket's. 💩 category.
 


Roland Brooks

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2010
Messages
2,214
Reaction score
1,276
Points
113
At least you waited until the Gophers past UST in the KenPom rankings before you puffed your chest… comical. Scrub
 





Top Bottom