Pete Rose dead at age 83

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tikited said:
No one remembers Roy Campanella! Was still going strong before his accident.
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Campy was definitely shortchanged at the beginning and ending of career. He could have put up some gaudy numbers otherwise.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
was reading an article (can't remember where). according to the article, about 20 years ago, Rose met with then-Commissioner Bud Selig. Rose, Selig and their respective advisors reportedly worked out a deal: Rose would make a public statement admitting he bet on baseball and taking responsibility for his actions. as part of the deal, Rose would agree to stop gambling, and stop hanging out at Casinos and associating with known gamblers. If Rose met all of the terms, MLB would allow him to be considered for the Hall of Fame.

according to the article, everyone shook hands and agreed to the deal.

the next day, Rose was seen doing an autograph and memorabilia signing - at a Casino. Selig found out, blew a gasket and the deal was off.

Pete Rose was his own worst enemy.
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I heard the same story on Barreiro.

He needed money to gamble with.

It's as simple as that.

Do they pay you for the hall of fame?

Does anyone actually believe someone as competitive as him would throw games to win bets?
 


Wally said:
I heard the same story on Barreiro.

He needed money to gamble with.

It's as simple as that.

Do they pay you for the hall of fame?

Does anyone actually believe someone as competitive as him would throw games to win bets?
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Gambling Addiction, just like any other, will take you and twist you/your values:morals, like a frickin 🥨, until you’re a shallow imitation of who you once were: the house always wins😉
 

Wally said:
I heard the same story on Barreiro.

He needed money to gamble with.

It's as simple as that.

Do they pay you for the hall of fame?

Does anyone actually believe someone as competitive as him would throw games to win bets?
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The point is we don’t know whether he did or not, and that’s the problem. He committed the ultimate sin in competitive sports by introducing doubt into the legitimacy of the outcome.
 


Gophers1992 said:
The point is we don’t know whether he did or not, and that’s the problem. He committed the ultimate sin in competitive sports by introducing doubt into the legitimacy of the outcome.
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This is the best argument why Rose shouldn't be in the HOF. I still think he should be judged by what he did on the field but there really is no rebuttal for the point you made.
 


Ope3 said:
They help you hit the ball further. That resulted in just flat out silly HR totals, to not acknowledge that their stats were impacted artificially is unbelievable denial.

The "majority" of players were doing it argument, doesn't change the fact that none of the players I mentioned would have accumulated statistics to merit enshrinement into Cooperstown, which is what you originally asserted.
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Sure they can, but they don't help you make contact with the ball which matters the most.

I think Sosa and Palmiero's case are weaker, so I don't disagree with you there. But you also left out Bonds and ARod.

Bonds, ARod, Clemons, and McGwire should all be in the HOF IMO.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Sure they can, but they don't help you make contact with the ball which matters the most.

I think Sosa and Palmiero's case are weaker, so I don't disagree with you there. But you also left out Bonds and ARod.

Bonds, ARod, Clemons, and McGwire should all be in the HOF IMO.
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Bonds is the only one who would unquestionably in my opinion still put together a HoF resume. ARod, probably so, but I presume he was juicing at such a young age, I'm not sure. Ditto for Manny Ramirez.

While making contact is important, the extra benefit turns lots of balls that would have died at the warning track instead of HRs. There's a good reason they used that stuff. It worked.

If McGwire doesn't turn to roids does he even have a better resume than say Kent Hrbek?

Does Clemons even get to Jack Morris numbers, which would be the bare minimum to get in? Tons of doubt in my mind.
 



Ope3 said:
Bonds is the only one who would unquestionably in my opinion still put together a HoF resume. ARod, probably so, but I presume he was juicing at such a young age, I'm not sure. Ditto for Manny Ramirez.

While making contact is important, the extra benefit turns lots of balls that would have died at the warning track instead of HRs. There's a good reason they used that stuff. It worked.

If McGwire doesn't turn to roids does he even have a better resume than say Kent Hrbek?

Does Clemons even get to Jack Morris numbers, which would be the bare minimum to get in? Tons of doubt in my mind.
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I don't think McGwire is even remotely comparable to Hrbek, and the same goes for Morris and Clemons.

McGwire hit 49 HRs in his first full season in the majors. He was an elite HR hitter from the moment he stepped on the field.

Clemons was also an elite strikeout pitcher from the beginning, something Morris wasn't. A younger Clemons was better than a younger Morris by pretty much every metric.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I don't think McGwire is even remotely comparable to Hrbek, and the same goes for Morris and Clemons.

McGwire hit 49 HRs in his first full season in the majors. He was an elite HR hitter from the moment he stepped on the field.

Clemons was also an elite strikeout pitcher from the beginning, something Morris wasn't. A younger Clemons was better than a younger Morris by pretty much every metric.
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McGwire might have been doing it from the get go. His career was hanging by a thread due to injuries mid-90s then spiked dramatically his last couple of years in Oakland through St Louis. No way is he considered without the accomplishments from 1995 on.

Clemons career was on the ropes by the time he got to Toronto and riddled with post-season failures. He then added 4 Cy Youngs, 2 rings & soared past 200 wins to the mid-300s.

Too much doubt.
 

Ope3 said:
McGwire might have been doing it from the get go. His career was hanging by a thread due to injuries mid-90s then spiked dramatically his last couple of years in Oakland through St Louis. No way is he considered without the accomplishments from 1995 on.

Clemons career was on the ropes by the time he got to Toronto and riddled with post-season failures. He then added 4 Cy Youngs, 2 rings & soared past 200 wins to the mid-300s.

Too much doubt.
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He did have good power as amateur. Lots of home runs at USC
(No opinion either way on HOF)
 

Ope3 said:
McGwire might have been doing it from the get go. His career was hanging by a thread due to injuries mid-90s then spiked dramatically his last couple of years in Oakland through St Louis. No way is he considered without the accomplishments from 1995 on.

Clemons career was on the ropes by the time he got to Toronto and riddled with post-season failures. He then added 4 Cy Youngs, 2 rings & soared past 200 wins to the mid-300s.

Too much doubt.
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I was very disappointed in McGwire's interview post admission with, I think it was Costas. Never really acknowledged that the roids helped his #'s.

To support Ope on this, it's admitted that steroids help you recover faster from injuries, get stronger and let you work out longer. So, in Mac's case (and Sosa, Palmeira, etc), 1. You're stronger so have a little faster bat speed so those balls that previously went off the wall or were caught are now home runs. 2. You play more games since you are not being rested or recovering from injuries as long which leads to more at bats and, by ratio, more home runs and 3. Less general fatigue in the dog days of the season- hence more home runs.

I do think Mac, Clemens and Bonds would have compelling arguments for enshrinement without roids, especially Bonds, I wouldn't vote for them.
 




Gophers1992 said:
I’m a believer that the roiders should be in the hall, but any argument that roids don’t help performance is absurd. Guys weren’t juicing just for fun.
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I wasn't arguing that steroids didn't help, they did. My argument is that Bonds, ARod, Clemons, and McGwire were among the best players in that era, with or without steroids, which were in widespread use across the league, and belong in the HOF.
 

fan of Ray Williams said:
He did have good power as amateur. Lots of home runs at USC
(No opinion either way on HOF)
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He hit 49 in his rookie season, to set a Rookie Record, while playing at 215 lbs (190 in college)- pic of rookie card below ( by all accounts he was clean his rookie year).. He ended up playing at 250, per MLB. He was 6”5”. Definitely athletic with good musculature below, but not the massive mountain man he ended up being.

IMG_4925.jpeg
 
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Who doesn't love Keith Jackson calling a Pete Rose vs Nolan Ryan showdown to start the epic Best of 5 finale of the 1980 NLCS? Also at the mic are Howard Cosell and Don Drysdale.

 

Ope3 said:
Who doesn't love Keith Jackson calling a Pete Rose vs Nolan Ryan showdown to start the epic Best of 5 finale on the 1980 NLCS? Also at the mic are Howard Cosell and Don Drysdale.

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I think Rose has legit beef on a couple of those called strikes, especially the 2nd one.
 


"Pete Rose is banned from the Hall of Fame for gambling"

"Also, make sure to head over to ABC website to gamble on MLB games"

I know it's not exactly the same thing but it's still a bit hypocritical IMO. Rose was a POS for a number of reasons, but he was still a phenomenal player.

As for the steroids era, I think it should just be that the numbers have to be better to be considered for the Hall of Fame. Obviously guys like Bonds and Clemens are easily in, but if there's a guy that's kinda on the edge of in or out should be left out.
 

GophersInIowa said:
"Pete Rose is banned from the Hall of Fame for gambling"

"Also, make sure to head over to ABC website to gamble on MLB games"

I know it's not exactly the same thing but it's still a bit hypocritical IMO. Rose was a POS for a number of reasons, but he was still a phenomenal player.
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There is no hypocrisy at all in my opinion. Zero.

The participants in the competition and those that have an influence on the outcome (ie Manager) do not get the privilege to wager on it.

He broke the cardinal rule.
 

Ope3 said:
There is no hypocrisy at all in my opinion. Zero.

The participants in the competition and those that have an influence on the outcome (ie Manager) do not get the privilege to wager on it.

He broke the cardinal rule.
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Gambling can become addicting. They're promoting (and profiting off of) something that can become an addiction. Rose clearly had a gambling addiction.

I'm not saying he shouldn't pay for his actions but I think it's way too severe of a penalty to still keep him out. If Rose would have been a better person even with the gambling, he'd be in the Hall of Fame right now. It's not even him breaking "the cardinal rule" that's keeping him out anymore.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Gambling can become addicting. They're promoting (and profiting off of) something that can become an addiction. Rose clearly had a gambling addiction.

I'm not saying he shouldn't pay for his actions but I think it's way too severe of a penalty to still keep him out. If Rose would have been a better person even with the gambling, he'd be in the Hall of Fame right now. It's not even him breaking "the cardinal rule" that's keeping him out anymore.
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Look I'm not a fan of the way gambling ads have infiltrated sports coverage seemingly everywhere you look, but people are acting like the guy got a lifetime prison sentence. As Ope stated, he broke the cardinal rule of baseball (among other behavioral issues) and therefore will not be placed in the hall with the other legends of the game.
 

Gophers1992 said:
Look I'm not a fan of the way gambling ads have infiltrated sports coverage seemingly everywhere you look, but people are acting like the guy got a lifetime prison sentence. As Ope stated, he broke the cardinal rule of baseball (among other behavioral issues) and therefore will not be placed in the hall with the other legends of the game.
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Nah, just pointing out what I deem to be rather hypocritical. The spirit of the "cardinal rule" is to prevent games from being thrown. There's no evidence he did this. The length of his ban is because of him being an a-hole, not because of what he originally did.

If the gambling was exactly the same but he was a really likeable guy, there's little doubt the ban would have been lifted awhile ago.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Nah, just pointing out what I deem to be rather hypocritical. The spirit of the "cardinal rule" is to prevent games from being thrown. There's no evidence he did this.
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The bold is not completely correct.

The amount of action he had on the Reds on any given night could have influenced who pitched and how long, just as one example. That's fundamentally wrong.
 
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GophersInIowa said:
Nah, just pointing out what I deem to be rather hypocritical. The spirit of the "cardinal rule" is to prevent games from being thrown. There's no evidence he did this. The length of his ban is because of him being an a-hole, not because of what he originally did.

If the gambling was exactly the same but he was a really likeable guy, there's little doubt the ban would have been lifted awhile ago.
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The problem is we don't know one way or another. There is doubt cast on every game he participated in.

As for your last sentence, you're probably right, but who knows.

FWIW I would be ok if sports betting was given the tobacco treatment and we didn't have to see ads everywhere we turn.
 

Ope3 said:
The bold is not completely correct.

The amount of action he had on the Reds on any given night could have influenced who pitched and how long, just as one example. That's fundamentally wrong.
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I would think that would be pretty easy to look into. Did he make unusual decisions in those games that he didn't normally? Like did he make sure to throw his best relievers in those games even in situations he normally wouldn't?
 

I despise the man. He's a terrible human being. But the ban has been for 35 years now. He admitted he did it and he's now dead. Just seems like it's time to get him in IMO.
 

GophersInIowa said:
I would think that would be pretty easy to look into. Did he make unusual decisions in those games that he didn't normally? Like did he make sure to throw his best relievers in those games even in situations he normally wouldn't?
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There also aren't really traceable records of which games he bet on though, right?
 

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