Neal: Moving forward with Ben Johnson is the only option for Gophers men’s basketball

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mngg11 said:
So what do you guys complain about when the new guy comes in and sucks? Same old song and dance?
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Yes, but CBJ is sucking at historical levels. Worse than everyone else who's coached here. And he has a senior laden team, should be winning this year because of that. What happens next year with a bunch of noob players?
 


GophersWin! said:
dont be fooled again and repeat the same little dick pitino extensions. johnson is a disaster.
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Pitino got an extra life by winning a game in the NCAA tournament. As dumb as that might have been, extending Johnson after this year is not even within the same stratosphere.
 

mngg11 said:
So what do you guys complain about when the new guy comes in and sucks? Same old song and dance?
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Wouldn't you always complain if something sucks? If you're not going to complain and be unhappy with continued losing, what are your options? I guess you could stop watching and supporting altogether.
 



bga1 said:
If he gets 4 more wins- he keeps his job. 3-2 in the regular season + 1 Big Ten win would be 9-11 and 18-15 after and 0-6 Big Ten start. Even better he gets 4 regular season wins and gets to 10-10.

I'm not saying it is a great performance- it isn't. But it would be an outstanding coaching achievement to bring this poorly assembled crew to 10-10 in the Big Ten after an 0-6 start. Actually kind of incredible if it happens. Nobody short of Gopher in NYC predicted that (and he admits he didn't believe it).

If he keeps his job, his extension and buyout should be performance based. Fired at less than 8-12 they shouldn't have to pay one. On the human side, I would actually like to see him pull it off and have him have a shot with revenue sharing to put together a talented roster. But for heaven sakes if he doesn't get at least 4 more games in the W column - they gotta move on.
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what if they'd gone 3-3 to start and ended at 10-10? This team has next to nothing coming back off of it. that they got better through the year (or just started playing better) doesn't do much to move the needle when you aren't playing with the same team. isn't this why we evaluate the season in its entirety, not short spurts?
 


mngolf said:
So don't try to be better, got it.
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Let's keep repeating the same cycle every 4-8 years and expecting things to change. It's almost like this program is really hard to win at.

I really don't care if they fire Ben Johnson. I also don't think hiring Johnny Tauer or whatever other mid-major coach at the worst salary in the B1G is going to magically change the program from what it is. Who could have predicted that a coach who hasn't coached before was going to struggle the 1st few years? Better find a booster to pay for a big time coach or nothing is going to change.

People talking about crowds at Williams Arena is also hilarious to me. Has anyone watched college basketball lately? Did you see the crowds at UCLA, USC, Maryland or Iowa? The 90s aren't coming back.
 



Johnnyboy18 said:
People talking about crowds at Williams Arena is also hilarious to me. Has anyone watched college basketball lately? Did you see the crowds at UCLA, USC, Maryland or Iowa? The 90s aren't coming back.
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Nor are the eighties!

Amen, brother. As is often the case, people are stuck in the nostalgia of their youth and fail to accept Thomas Wolfe's final message: You Can't Go Home Again.
 

upnorthkid said:
what if they'd gone 3-3 to start and ended at 10-10? This team has next to nothing coming back off of it. that they got better through the year (or just started playing better) doesn't do much to move the needle when you aren't playing with the same team. isn't this why we evaluate the season in its entirety, not short spurts?
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When I saw this team in the non- conference, I thought this was perhaps the worst roster I had ever seen the Gophers assemble. The talent is still bad. However they would have gotten to 10-10 would have been an admirable coaching job. Recruiting? That's another thing. I say it was horrid, although he did get some tough kids in here.

Now the question is- can he recruit with the new revenue sharing? I don't know the answer to that. The freshman class he has signed is pretty decent - especially the big man. Is that an indication that things may turn in terms of talent coming in? I don't know.

All we know is that very few Gopher fans thought that he could do with this group what he has. You have to admit that. I have been a big Ben critic, so I am just admitting my surprise here.
 
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Minutes ago, I concluded a working session with one of my national committee mates. He works for Wisconsin DOT and is an alumnus of UW-Madison. I mentioned to him that I would vote for Greg Gard as national coach of the year. Bill replied that, in his estimation, the basketball program is "okay." He mentioned that they haven't won a national title since the 1940's, and although they've been to Final Fours in recent memory, they haven't been to one in several years. He did admit they do well in the Big Ten, though. Must be nice.

I thought BleedGopher put it best in reply to the thread about what a realistic expectation for Gopher basketball ought to be. His reply was inspirational, in fact. He proclaimed that it's realistic to at least aspire to the same success that Wisconsin has had in this century, saying there's no logical, objective reasons why that's not possible. It should be noted that the Badgers had to kiss a lot of frogs over the years before they found a prince (the succession of Bennett, Ryan and Gard) to take them away from their previous existence. As the saying goes, persistence and perseverance pay.

Running the program back another year with Johnson is just another year delay in the hopes of attaining that kind of success--the potential this program has and has always had. Anyone who doesn't see that potential is short sighted.
 

upnorthkid said:
This team has next to nothing coming back off of it. that they got better through the year (or just started playing better) doesn't do much to move the needle when you aren't playing with the same team.
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Yes, but anyone coaching here next year will face the same set of circumstances or maybe worse since the incoming freshmen have a fair chance of decommitting if there is a coaching change. Frank Mitchell could leave too; he wouldn't have much difficulty finding another program. Johnson could end up with a winning season and a postseason beyond the Big Ten tournament this year. If that happens, he will have had a significantly better first four years than Fred Hoiberg had at Nebraska.
 



Johnnyboy18 said:
That firing a coach and hiring another coach for ~2 million dollars a year which is going to be dead last in the B1G isn't going to produce different results.
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Rationale people realize that this isn't an absolute certainty.

There are tons of programs that have improved with the hiring of a coach. We've been better throughout our entire history with a better coach. Almost every program at the U is in better shape.

No one who has followed any sport anywhere could come to the conclusion that being dead last is inevitable. How on earth could someone possibly think "if the least qualified person in the history of the program couldn't turn it around, who could?"

This entire nihilistic coping mechanism to deal with Ben Johnson's predictable failure is really bizarre. I cut LEN more slack than people who actually watch basketball. LEN's opinions are about what you'd expect from a morbidly obese alcoholic who spent his 40s and 50s pawing chubby methheads while eating frozen pizzas at Alery's.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Rationale people realize that this isn't an absolute certainty.

There are tons of programs that have improved with the hiring of a coach. We've been better throughout our entire history with a better coach. Almost every program at the U is in better shape.

No one who has followed any sport anywhere could come to the conclusion that being dead last is inevitable. How on earth could someone possibly think "if the least qualified person in the history of the program couldn't turn it around, who could?"

This entire nihilistic coping mechanism to deal with Ben Johnson's predictable failure is really bizarre. I cut LEN more slack than people who actually watch basketball. LEN's opinions are about what you'd expect from a morbidly obese alcoholic who spent his 40s and 50s pawing chubby methheads while eating frozen pizzas at Alery's.
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Good thing we aren't dead last in anything related to mens basketball besides coaching salary isn't it Bob The Lawyer?
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Let's keep repeating the same cycle every 4-8 years and expecting things to change. It's almost like this program is really hard to win at.

I really don't care if they fire Ben Johnson. I also don't think hiring Johnny Tauer or whatever other mid-major coach at the worst salary in the B1G is going to magically change the program from what it is. Who could have predicted that a coach who hasn't coached before was going to struggle the 1st few years? Better find a booster to pay for a big time coach or nothing is going to change.

People talking about crowds at Williams Arena is also hilarious to me. Has anyone watched college basketball lately? Did you see the crowds at UCLA, USC, Maryland or Iowa? The 90s aren't coming back.
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I love this assumption you and JG have that we will only pay $2 million. Its the easiest way to just go "aw shucks" and quit. We wont do better so might as well stay mediocre cause we wont do better anyways. Same dreck I heard when they got rid of Clayes...
 

Dave H said:
I love this assumption you and JG have that we will only pay $2 million. Its the easiest way to just go "aw shucks" and quit. We wont do better so might as well stay mediocre cause we wont do better anyways. Same dreck I heard when they got rid of Clayes...
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For some reason I think someone who literally works for the University might know what the University is willing to pay compared to Dave H and Bob from Gopherhole.com.
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
Yes, but anyone coaching here next year will face the same set of circumstances or maybe worse since the incoming freshmen have a fair chance of decommitting if there is a coaching change. Frank Mitchell could leave too; he wouldn't have much difficulty finding another program. Johnson could end up with a winning season and a postseason beyond the Big Ten tournament this year. If that happens, he will have had a significantly better first four years than Fred Hoiberg had at Nebraska.
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in the era of the portal, we all know this isn't true as they could easily bring their team with them. he has 3 3 star commits who are ranked overall last in terms of avg rating in the B10 (per 247).

If he makes the NCAA tournament, yeah he's back to me. and who cares about Fred Hoiberg?
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
Yes, but anyone coaching here next year will face the same set of circumstances or maybe worse since the incoming freshmen have a fair chance of decommitting if there is a coaching change. Frank Mitchell could leave too; he wouldn't have much difficulty finding another program. Johnson could end up with a winning season and a postseason beyond the Big Ten tournament this year. If that happens, he will have had a significantly better first four years than Fred Hoiberg had at Nebraska.
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Right so what is the point in bringing back the coach who is going to fail and then be fired? Its not like his team is playing at a high level they still aren't even close to the bubble. Its not like he has a track record of winning that gives us hope that this is just a fluke...

If the team was going to make the NCAAs sure then your post makes sense. They aren't even approaching the bubble yet. If the team is going to stink no matter who the coach is better to start anew than bring back the guy who at best can get his team of new guys to play well for half a year.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
For some reason I think someone who literally works for the University might know what the University is willing to pay compared to Dave H and Bob from Gopherhole.com.
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You mean the guy who is literally wrong all the time? The guy who listens to a lot of the same sources as Doogie (also wrong) and who takes the crap the recruiting gurus say as gospel every year? The guy who loves every coach until they are fired Sid style and makes excuses beyond belief? I like JG a lot, but the dude is a rube and always has been. To his credit, before he started taking his role a bit too seriously he seemed to get that.

We have fired better coaches who did better than Ben Johnson and no other team would keep Ben Johnson around. And funny that teams that usually are bad (and have little for NIL or a basketball budget) seem to find a way to improve when they find the right coach. Must be those big boosters shelling out the cash amirite Johnnyboy!

But lets take this crap as fact for a second. I would rather pay $2 million for a guy who proved on some level he can coach (even if it doesn't work) than for the guy we have currently who has proven he cannot. End of story. I am not one of these woe is me fans who just accept we are screwed so why bother. That is a loser mentality. YMMV.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Rationale people realize that this isn't an absolute certainty.

There are tons of programs that have improved with the hiring of a coach. We've been better throughout our entire history with a better coach. Almost every program at the U is in better shape.

No one who has followed any sport anywhere could come to the conclusion that being dead last is inevitable. How on earth could someone possibly think "if the least qualified person in the history of the program couldn't turn it around, who could?"

This entire nihilistic coping mechanism to deal with Ben Johnson's predictable failure is really bizarre. I cut LEN more slack than people who actually watch basketball. LEN's opinions are about what you'd expect from a morbidly obese alcoholic who spent his 40s and 50s pawing chubby methheads while eating frozen pizzas at Alery's.
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Yep, pretty much this. Programs like FSU (Leonard Hamilton), Miami (Larranaga), and Virginia Tech (Buzz Williams) were all pretty much after thought programs. Buzz had VT in the NIT in year 2, NCAA's in year 3 and they made 5 straight tournaments (including a S16), despite him leaving after 2019. VT was in MUCH worse shape than we were when we hired Ben. Miami had one tournament victory, in the previous 7 years prior to Larranaga being hired (sound familiar) FSU had made one tournament in the 9 years prior to Hamilton. Hamilton's had the best run at FSU dating back to the 70's.

Houston was shit for about 3 decades prior to hiring Kelvin. And it should be noted when he was hired they were in the AAC. Hell you can even add NW and Collins to this list. They haven't reached the heights of the others, but going to 3 tournaments in an 8 year span when having never gone before is pretty good.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Let's keep repeating the same cycle every 4-8 years and expecting things to change. It's almost like this program is really hard to win at.

I really don't care if they fire Ben Johnson. I also don't think hiring Johnny Tauer or whatever other mid-major coach at the worst salary in the B1G is going to magically change the program from what it is. Who could have predicted that a coach who hasn't coached before was going to struggle the 1st few years? Better find a booster to pay for a big time coach or nothing is going to change.

People talking about crowds at Williams Arena is also hilarious to me. Has anyone watched college basketball lately? Did you see the crowds at UCLA, USC, Maryland or Iowa? The 90s aren't coming back.
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Isn't that better than keeping a coach who hasn't produced a top 75 team (we'll see what happens this year)?
 

upnorthkid said:
he's more saying, the school needs to spend money/swing higher at hiring someone and that continuing to hire at/near the lowest rate in the B10 is going to continue to give you teams at/near the bottom of the B10 standings
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Yes they do need to spend more. But regardless of if they do or not, continuing the same losing at historical levels is not defensible for this coach. Therefore these are two different conversations.
 

Gophers7633 said:
Yep, pretty much this. Programs like FSU (Leonard Hamilton), Miami (Larranaga), and Virginia Tech (Buzz Williams) were all pretty much after thought programs. Buzz had VT in the NIT in year 2, NCAA's in year 3 and they made 5 straight tournaments (including a S16), despite him leaving after 2019. VT was in MUCH worse shape than we were when we hired Ben. Miami had one tournament victory, in the previous 7 years prior to Larranaga being hired (sound familiar) FSU had made one tournament in the 9 years prior to Hamilton. Hamilton's had the best run at FSU dating back to the 70's.

Houston was shit for about 3 decades prior to hiring Kelvin. And it should be noted when he was hired they were in the AAC. Hell you can even add NW and Collins to this list. They haven't reached the heights of the others, but going to 3 tournaments in an 8 year span when having never gone before is pretty good.
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Hilarious listing examples from 15+ years ago. Especially 2 coaches who are quitting/quit because of the nonsense going on with NIL. Different ball game today. Go look at the coaching carousel the last 2 years in P5. The teams that made changes for mid-major coaches without significant NIL backing still suck. Good luck finishing in the top half of the conference in this era without significant NIL backing and/or shelling out money for an elite coach. You get what you pay for has finally made it's way to college basketball and it isn't going away.
 

Gophers7633 said:
Isn't that better than keeping a coach who hasn't produced a top 75 team (we'll see what happens this year)?
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I don't care, I'm telling you what the results are 90%+ going to be because i root for the team no matter who the coach is. The University might care about the buyout however which costs them money.
 

upnorthkid said:
If he makes the NCAA tournament, yeah he's back to me. and who cares about Fred Hoiberg?
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Fred Hoiberg is an example of someone who started poorly but improved over time. If you scour the coaching ranks, you can find others.

Johnson still has some work to do in order to earn renewal but if he ends up winning 20 or more games when it's all said and done, he might be worth keeping.

Try to remember that what anyone on this board thinks really has no consequence. No one here will make the actual coaching decision.
 

mngolf said:
Yes they do need to spend more. But regardless of if they do or not, continuing the same losing at historical levels is not defensible for this coach. Therefore these are two different conversations.
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He's not losing at historical levels right now. At this moment, there are five Big Ten programs looking up at us and, if the team has a strong finish (certainly not a foregone conclusion), there could be a couple more by the end of the regular season.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Hilarious listing examples from 15+ years ago. Especially 2 coaches who are quitting/quit because of the nonsense going on with NIL. Different ball game today. Go look at the coaching carousel the last 2 years in P5. The teams that made changes for mid-major coaches without significant NIL backing still suck. Good luck finishing in the top half of the conference in this era without significant NIL backing and/or shelling out money for an elite coach. You get what you pay for has finally made it's way to college basketball and it isn't going away.
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Those coaches are also almost 80.

Programs like Vandy, West Virginia, Miss St, Missouri, Louisville etc...all seem to be doing pretty good with bringing in a mid major coach. Sure Louisville has NIL resources, but they had them under the old coach too, he just flat out sucked.

There are also examples where it hasn't worked. Seton Hall, Washington (as of now), PSU, Utah etc...
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
I don't care, I'm telling you what the results are 90%+ going to be because i root for the team no matter who the coach is. The University might care about the buyout however which costs them money.
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You know for certain that if we hire a new coach we're going to continue to stink?

Isn't the buyout like $2.93 million? That's pretty insignificant.
 

FinnGopher said:
The simple thing is that they actually had a track record of winning. Ben seems like a kind and likable person, but his entire track record is one of coaching under .500 basketball teams. Any person doing their research will see that and pass when given another option.
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Well, he has a 14-12 record overall and a 6-9 record in the BIG. The trendline is that the team may well end up with a winning BIG record of plus 0.500. If they get there, what will you say then? My guess is very little back peddling and more "He wasn't responsible for the dubs."
 

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