Minnesota High School Football Section Championship Matchups

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Some guy said:
And that’s true. 100%
And it’s true at Hopkins,
And it’s true at Burnsville
And it’s true at Eastview
And it’s true at Eagan (not the poverty but the only 1 7-8th grade football team)

Why do coon rapids kids deserve to win more than Hopkins and Burnsville kids?
Why do Coon rapids kids deserve to go to state semifinals in 2019 instead of spring lake park kids? If spring lake park parents were a little less involved could they go play 4a that year.


the state high school league might do the best they can. But they best they can be is apparently to be hypocritical morons.
When the league in charge of regulating fairness is intentionally gaming the schedule to help some teams wins at the expense of other teams, that’s bullshit.


sit Down kids from Isanti and st francis…we know that excluding each other you’ve combined to beat one 5a program this year. But you get to lose to a 6a team because they deserve to win.
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If Eagan and Eastview were in 5A, they would be unbeatable after a couple of years.
 

Some guy said:
True
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Considering the large percentage of the Minnetonka district that comes from open enrollment (34% in 2019), I wonder how many of those kids come from the Hopkins district. I suspect it's quite a few.
I know a few people who sent their kids to Minnetonka from EP during that redistricting kerfuffle a few years back.
 

Not to defend everything the MSHSL has done here (or elsewhere), but they really do face an uphill battle due to the huge disparity in levels even among classes. The top dozen 6A teams are essentially playing a different game than schools like Hopkins, Eagan, and Coon Rapids. The same thing happens in 5A - St. Thomas Academy rarely has competitive games, and has outscored Sibley/Two Rivers 224-19 over the last five meetings. There's only so much they can do.
 

As - Soon - As

you make the decision to award more than one State Champion trophy in a particular sport:

At some point, at some level, you have to make arbitrary decisions about who gets to qualify for each "level" of trophy.


No matter how you make those decisions, you'll have some jackass like Some Guy who stepped on a rusty nail in Coon Rapids one time, and has since spent his life writing nasty emails to the MSHSL and complaining about it on message boards.



As others have implied or even explicitly said: at the end of the day, what actually matters is competitiveness. Avoiding lopsided games, as much as possible. This should really be the only goal in stratifying the school teams over classes.


We know it makes zero sense for Wayzata to play Greenbush Middle River. We know it makes all the sense for Wayzata to play Eden Prairie.

There are then a million shades of gray in between.
 

discochris said:
Considering the large percentage of the Minnetonka district that comes from open enrollment (34% in 2019), I wonder how many of those kids come from the Hopkins district. I suspect it's quite a few.
I know a few people who sent their kids to Minnetonka from EP during that redistricting kerfuffle a few years back.
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For sure that happens. They’re in a tough spot. They’re kind of the Burnsville of the west metro but there is no River to slow the inflow of traffic and the next suburb out is wealthier by a higher degree of magnitude
 


PeterMac05 said:
If Eagan and Eastview were in 5A, they would be unbeatable after a couple of years.
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Strongly disagree with that. They would be more successful but people said the same thing about apple valley (who was 2-6 this year).
 

Most of the population of the Hopkins district, lives in the city of Minnetonka. Just another of many weird quirks of school district boundaries in the TC.

So guessing that these, probably upper middle class families in Mtka are like ... "wait, what ... we paid all this money ... to be in the Hopkins district???"
 

Some guy said:
Strongly disagree with that. They would be more successful but people said the same thing about apple valley (who was 2-6 this year).
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Apple valley has regressed in size massively. eagan and Eastview are at maximum capacity and will be for a while. Eagan has 4 high school teams, freshman, who went 8-0 and gave up less than 40 points all season, sophomore who went 4-4 and both a JV and varsity who won 2 games. Eastview in the same boat I assume. They would run 5A if they were in it for more than 2 years.
 

PeterMac05 said:
Apple valley has regressed in size massively. eagan and Eastview are at maximum capacity and will be for a while. Eagan has 4 high school teams, freshman, who went 8-0 and gave up less than 40 points all season, sophomore who went 4-4 and both a JV and varsity who won 2 games. Eastview in the same boat I assume. They would run 5A if they were in it for more than 2 years.
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Eagan and Eastview are both literally having boundaries redrawn to add kids to their school this year.
Eastiew is close to 40% open enrollment
Eastview is smaller than apple valley by neighborhood attendance

Eagan runs an offense that is advantageous to run at the freshmen level. We will see how it works in 3-4 years at the varsity level. I love to see Eagan succeed as I have connections there.
Eagan might run 5a eventually
Eastview would not
 



MplsGopher said:
As - Soon - As

you make the decision to award more than one State Champion trophy in a particular sport:

At some point, at some level, you have to make arbitrary decisions about who gets to qualify for each "level" of trophy.

No matter how you make those decisions, you'll have some jackass like Some Guy who stepped on a rusty nail in Coon Rapids one time, and has since spent his life writing nasty emails to the MSHSL and complaining about it on message boards.

As others have implied or even explicitly said: at the end of the day, what actually matters is competitiveness. Avoiding lopsided games, as much as possible. This should really be the only goal in stratifying the school teams over classes.

We know it makes zero sense for Wayzata to play Greenbush Middle River. We know it makes all the sense for Wayzata to play Eden Prairie.

There are then a million shades of gray in between.
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So essentially, you're for mandating some form of parity? What if, in some cases, a school just doesn't have a good football program, regardless of size or relative affluence? Do we pat them on the head as well and say "move down a class?"

I'll use my alma mater as a case in point. I went to Forest Lake, and with the exception of a period of about three really good years in the early 90's, the first of which was my senior year, the team has been mostly terrible. They had a 41 game, five year losing streak from 2011-2016.

FL is one of the smaller schools in the 6A class, which still makes it one of the 30 largest in the state - about the same size as Hopkins, Eagan and Woodbury. Demographically it's neither rich nor poor (32nd in median income), though there are certainly wealthier areas and poorer areas in the district. The fact that they can't seem to field a decent football team doesn't seem to be because of any demographic disadvantages. Apparently, they just can't get their **** together.

Should they be rewarded for fielding a terrible program?
 

discochris said:
What if, in some cases, a school just doesn't have a good football program, regardless of size or relative affluence? Do we pat them on the head as well and say "move down a class?"
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Doing so would be no less arbitrary than not doing so.

Someone will find a way to be upset, either way.

discochris said:
Should they be rewarded for fielding a terrible program?
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What "reward"? Why is that a "reward"?
 

discochris said:
So essentially, you're for mandating some form of parity? What if, in some cases, a school just doesn't have a good football program, regardless of size or relative affluence? Do we pat them on the head as well and say "move down a class?"

I'll use my alma mater as a case in point. I went to Forest Lake, and with the exception of a period of about three really good years in the early 90's, the first of which was my senior year, the team has been mostly terrible. They had a 41 game, five year losing streak from 2011-2016.

FL is one of the smaller schools in the 6A class, which still makes it one of the 30 largest in the state - about the same size as Hopkins, Eagan and Woodbury. Demographically it's neither rich nor poor (32nd in median income), though there are certainly wealthier areas and poorer areas in the district. The fact that they can't seem to field a decent football team doesn't seem to be because of any demographic disadvantages. Apparently, they just can't get their **** together.

Should they be rewarded for fielding a terrible program?
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100% you have people mandating parity. Which is literally impossible in a game that doesn’t involve ties.

no problem with taking into account poverty, population, all that…but once you have set the rules…you can’t break those rules for certain teams while holding others to it.

Hopkins and st Francis get to lose.
brainerd and coon rapids get to win.
because fairness
 

PeterMac05 said:
Apple valley has regressed in size massively. eagan and Eastview are at maximum capacity and will be for a while. Eagan has 4 high school teams, freshman, who went 8-0 and gave up less than 40 points all season, sophomore who went 4-4 and both a JV and varsity who won 2 games. Eastview in the same boat I assume. They would run 5A if they were in it for more than 2 years.
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I don't know, I'm inclined to agree with the poster that said they would do better but wouldn't be dominant. Eagan specifically has been way down in terms of numbers for football and gets blown out pretty much all the time.

The interesting thing in all this is that classes are based on school size but some of these bigger schools like Eagan, Burnsville and others are having a tough time getting kids to come out for football.
 



MNVCGUY said:
I don't know, I'm inclined to agree with the poster that said they would do better but wouldn't be dominant. Eagan specifically has been way down in terms of numbers for football and gets blown out pretty much all the time.

The interesting thing in all this is that classes are based on school size but some of these bigger schools like Eagan, Burnsville and others are having a tough time getting kids to come out for football.
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Yup. MSHSL is killing football programs by mandating schedules for people.

nobody signs up to get your butt kicked. In a sport where it takes numbers…a schedule that sets you up for 0-9 kills you. I RIP on the MSHSL for coon rapids…not because it was the wrong choice for the health of coon rapids but because they arbitrarily decided coon rapids football should get a lifeline while letting other wither on the vine. Burnsville is a top 15 biggest school in the state and couldn’t field a JV or Sophomore team this fall. (They canceled the rest of the JV schedule after about 3 games)
 

MplsGopher said:
Doing so would be no less arbitrary than not doing so.

Someone will find a way to be upset, either way.


What "reward"? Why is that a "reward"?
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You don't consider it a reward to be put in a weaker class where you will likely win more games?
 

Some guy said:
Eagan and Eastview are both literally having boundaries redrawn to add kids to their school this year.
Eastiew is close to 40% open enrollment
Eastview is smaller than apple valley by neighborhood attendance

Eagan runs an offense that is advantageous to run at the freshmen level. We will see how it works in 3-4 years at the varsity level. I love to see Eagan succeed as I have connections there.
Eagan might run 5a eventually
Eastview would not
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Is that open enrollment from other high schools in the district, or from outside the district? Because my impression is that most districts do not allow inter-district open enrollment, or nobody in N. Brooklyn Park would be sending their kids to Park Center.
 

Some guy said:
Burnsville is a top 15 biggest school in the state and couldn’t field a JV or Sophomore team this fall. (They canceled the rest of the JV schedule after about 3 games)
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Wow. That's incredible. And to think it wasn't long ago they were a major football power in the metro.
 

MNVCGUY said:
I don't know, I'm inclined to agree with the poster that said they would do better but wouldn't be dominant. Eagan specifically has been way down in terms of numbers for football and gets blown out pretty much all the time.

The interesting thing in all this is that classes are based on school size but some of these bigger schools like Eagan, Burnsville and others are having a tough time getting kids to come out for football.
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I also think that 5a football programs are much better than they get credit for.
the top 10 of 5a would be top 20 of 6a most of the last 5 years. It’s not like 5a teams are bad
 

On the topic of the playoffs.
Has anyone tried the streaming service for the high school games? How is the quality?

I'm not sure I'm going to convince the boy that driving to Park Center to sit on metal bleachers to watch football in 35 degree windy weather is going to be much fun, but I'd like to watch the game.
 

Some guy said:
I also think that 5a football programs are much better than they get credit for.
the top 10 of 5a would be top 20 of 6a most of the last 5 years. It’s not like 5a teams are bad
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Oh yes. Back in the day, in addition to publishing the state AP rankings by class, the two papers would do metro rankings, which didn't take into account school size.
 


discochris said:
So essentially, you're for mandating some form of parity? What if, in some cases, a school just doesn't have a good football program, regardless of size or relative affluence? Do we pat them on the head as well and say "move down a class?"

I'll use my alma mater as a case in point. I went to Forest Lake, and with the exception of a period of about three really good years in the early 90's, the first of which was my senior year, the team has been mostly terrible. They had a 41 game, five year losing streak from 2011-2016.

FL is one of the smaller schools in the 6A class, which still makes it one of the 30 largest in the state - about the same size as Hopkins, Eagan and Woodbury. Demographically it's neither rich nor poor (32nd in median income), though there are certainly wealthier areas and poorer areas in the district. The fact that they can't seem to field a decent football team doesn't seem to be because of any demographic disadvantages. Apparently, they just can't get their **** together.

Should they be rewarded for fielding a terrible program?
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I don't know what the answer is, but I know that teams getting blown out does neither side any good. I've been on both sides of it as a player and a coach.
 


Some guy said:
I also think that 5a football programs are much better than they get credit for.
the top 10 of 5a would be top 20 of 6a most of the last 5 years. It’s not like 5a teams are bad
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I will agree with that 10000% even without seeing any 5A teams in action. The quality of football at 6A is not good. There are a couple of good programs each year but you don't need much at all to dominate the state.

A team with a really good passing QB and a couple WR would be unstoppable.
 


Word said:
I don't know what the answer is, but I know that teams getting blown out does neither side any good. I've been on both sides of it as a player and a coach.
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There really should be some sort of competitive evaluation that takes place with the bigger schools (6A and 5A). If a 6A team is getting blown out all the time or struggling with numbers they should be moved to 5A. A dominant 5A team should be moved up to 6A. You could look at it every season and maybe give teams the option to move down if they meet certain criteria.

But that is a pipe dream because it would require someone to really do an honest assessment of teams and people would almost certainly complain about it and feel it wasn't fair to their squad.

Setting the classes based on school enrollment is the easiest way to do it, but the competitive balance at 6A is not great right now and there are a lot of bad teams at that level.
 


MNVCGUY said:
But that is a pipe dream because it would require someone to really do an honest assessment of teams and people would almost certainly complain about it and feel it wasn't fair to their squad.
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Nobody likes to be told that they suck.

The other issue is that one year, you might have some D1 prospect stud player and be really good and go to state, and then that kid graduates, and you go 2-6 or 1-7, and there's really no predicting the future on that.
 

Maybe there is no great answer. My whole beef in this thread is that they killed off long-time local rivalries when they went to district football. And they did. And that stinks.
 

discochris said:
Nobody likes to be told that they suck.

The other issue is that one year, you might have some D1 prospect stud player and be really good and go to state, and then that kid graduates, and you go 2-6 or 1-7, and there's really no predicting the future on that.
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Your last part would be more a basketball thing than a football thing. In football you need a few players to really improve drastically and quickly. In a state with very few high level athletes that is easier said than done.

But that is where the yearly evaluation would have to come into play. But doesn't matter because I don't see it happening.
 

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