Minnesota High School Football Section Championship Matchups

[GFBfan]

Sites are set prior to section championships. You need over 20 sites without knowing who the champions are. Some sections have great distances to travel within their sections. Turf is a requirement. Section match ups also rotate other than 6A

Why can't they wait until the section finals are all done and then decide which games are going to be played where. The high school league should have about 30 places lined up to possibly host a first round game, then choose the sites based on proximity to the two schools and estimated crowd size.

 

[Word]

Why can't they wait until the section finals are all done and then decide which games are going to be played where. The high school league should have about 30 places lined up to possibly host a first round game, then choose the sites based on proximity to the two schools and estimated crowd size.

My impression is they have a hard enough time finding the sites as it is. Adding more would be tough. Maybe as more and more schools add turf that could change.

 

[disco]

At what point did they mandate turf, and why?

And looking through all the sites, there seem to be a lot of locations that could be used, but are not, that would make a lot more sense geographically.

 

[Word]

At what point did they mandate turf, and why?

And looking through all the sites, there seem to be a lot of locations that could be used, but are not, that would make a lot more sense geographically.

Some schools aren't willing to host.

I think they mandate turf in the event a grass field is trashed during the fall.

 

[Some guy]

If you don't think economics factors in to youth sports participation and competitiveness, you're delusional. I have no idea if MSHSL has hit the formula correctly, but it for sure needs to be factored in.

For sure. And it is. And then at the end if they don’t like the way it factored they just bump a team down to 5a anyways. I guess coon rapids kids are double poor

 

[disco]

Some schools aren't willing to host.

I think they mandate turf in the event a grass field is trashed during the fall.

I've felt that the NFL should mandate uniform playing surfaces in all stadiums for years now. But in the case of high schools, is it really better to have to bus kids 200+ miles to a game? At the very least, most of the smaller colleges in the state have turf now.

 

[disco]

Re: Turf.
This was my first year coaching youth tackle football. I was really surprised that every single one of our games was on artificial turf.

 

[SixBySix]

They didn't. The only class that seeds the final 8 is 6A. All other classes are pre-determined by which section they came from. Mayo is section 1 and West is section 2.

You know, seeing the 6,7, and 8 really should have tipped me off. Used to the "Seed the top 5" approach in other sports.

 

[Word]

I've felt that the NFL should mandate uniform playing surfaces in all stadiums for years now. But in the case of high schools, is it really better to have to bus kids 200+ miles to a game? At the very least, most of the smaller colleges in the state have turf now.

I'm not saying it's better to bus kids 200 miles but MSHSL can't force a school to host.

 

[Word]

For sure. And it is. And then at the end if they don’t like the way it factored they just bump a team down to 5a anyways. I guess coon rapids kids are double poor

Trust me, I have no reason to defend Coon Rapids (they are a team that myself, teams I've coached, and my own kids have played against many times over the years) but it looks like their football program really struggled this year even in 5A? They only won 2 games. I could see your frustration if CR was killing everyone in the lower class.

 

[Some guy]

Trust me, I have no reason to defend Coon Rapids (they are a team that myself, teams I've coached, and my own kids have played against many times over the years) but it looks like their football program really struggled this year even in 5A? They only won 2 games. I could see your frustration if CR was killing everyone in the lower class.

My frustration is not with coon rapids it’s with the state high school league. Their job is not to pick winners and losers.
In 2019 Coon rapids went to the 5a state semifinals while being a 6a sized school by the MSHSL number including free and reduced lunch adjustment (why there were only 31 teams in 6a for a few years).
Meanwhile 5a schools have their season ended by a 6a school.

Even now when they play 6a playoffs but 5a regular season schedule. Why is it unfair for coon rapids to play a 6a schedule but it is fair to make 2-8 (and 5a) Cambridge Isanti play a 6a school. Every time the MSHSL picks a winner, they default pick someone else to be a loser; you can’t redesign the classification process to have some schools win and other schools lose.

the MSHSL is corrupt and/or unintelligent if they can’t figure that out


coon rapids, you are so bad you get to play teams way smaller than you. Sorry Isanti, you have to play a 6a school even though you’re also bad

 

[MaxyJR1]

Are there going to be new players that will pique the Gophers' interest?

MaxyJR1, please help us out.

Alexandria is still in it and Hoskins had another huge game in the section final. This kid can move.
Maple River has a OL that has really good size. Not sure on his plans .
Hutch has a 6-6 athlete in Sam Rensch.


Usually at this point PWO is the type of player you're looking at.

I don't see anyone touching Mankato West in 5A. Maybe Elk River could stay close with the option football.

 

[Plato]

The problem as I see it is that the MSHSL is using far too many variables to assign schools to a certain division.
Why not just use the number of students in each school and leave it at that?
Why are the smallest schools in Division 1? That is counter intuitive.
And after putting all the social variables in the computer why then divide a division into a and b?
Are there any other states that make the state tournament divisions so complex?

 

[MaxyJR1]

My frustration is not with coon rapids it’s with the state high school league. Their job is not to pick winners and losers.
In 2019 Coon rapids went to the 5a state semifinals while being a 6a sized school by the MSHSL number including free and reduced lunch adjustment (why there were only 31 teams in 6a for a few years).
Meanwhile 5a schools have their season ended by a 6a school.

Even now when they play 6a playoffs but 5a regular season schedule. Why is it unfair for coon rapids to play a 6a schedule but it is fair to make 2-8 (and 5a) Cambridge Isanti play a 6a school. Every time the MSHSL picks a winner, they default pick someone else to be a loser; you can’t redesign the classification process to have some schools win and other schools lose.

the MSHSL is corrupt and/or unintelligent if they can’t figure that out


coon rapids, you are so bad you get to play teams way smaller than you. Sorry Isanti, you have to play a 6a school even though you’re also bad

I understand what you are saying based on size of school. Coon Rapids is bigger than Andover, but the demographics don't play football. A program that has 1 team per grade or or 17-30 kids playing football can't compete or build a program.

Andover had 2-3 teams per grade
Spring Lake Park has 2 and growing
Elk River has 2-3 teams per grade
Blaine has 3-4 teams per grade
Champlin 2-3
Centennial 3-4


Coon Rapids youth basketball has 1 traveling girl's basketball team for 6/7 grade combined and there is no in-house basketball program for boys or girls.

I don't know the answers, but feel the MSHSL is doing it's best with what they are given.

 

[MaxyJR1]

Why can't they wait until the section finals are all done and then decide which games are going to be played where. The high school league should have about 30 places lined up to possibly host a first round game, then choose the sites based on proximity to the two schools and estimated crowd size.

1. Schools have to want to host and get the volunteers to do so. Not an easy ask as less and less volunteers and staff want to do these events.
2. A team in the State tournament can't host on the day they have a game, so that site is either lost or moved.
3. There are capacity requirements to host.
4. They have to work around an college schedules or hosts.
5. Dates for state games are all predetermined for each class, so if 1A is scheduled to play on Saturday, they are limited to the locations that are willing to host on that date.

Just some of the variables. I agree that some of the locations are terrible and should be moved if possible.

 

[paulser21]

I just looked at some of the remaining matchups. I’m surprised Chatfield and Minneapolis North are in the same bracket.

Regardless, I hope Chatfield, Rushford-Peterson, and Leroy-Ostrander represent southeast Minnesota well!

 

[disco]

1. Schools have to want to host and get the volunteers to do so. Not an easy ask as less and less volunteers and staff want to do these events.
2. A team in the State tournament can't host on the day they have a game, so that site is either lost or moved.
3. There are capacity requirements to host.
4. They have to work around an college schedules or hosts.
5. Dates for state games are all predetermined for each class, so if 1A is scheduled to play on Saturday, they are limited to the locations that are willing to host on that date.

Just some of the variables. I agree that some of the locations are terrible and should be moved if possible.

Thanks for helping explain!

 

[Some guy]

I understand what you are saying based on size of school. Coon Rapids is bigger than Andover, but the demographics don't play football. A program that has 1 team per grade or or 17-30 kids playing football can't compete or build a program.

Andover had 2-3 teams per grade
Spring Lake Park has 2 and growing
Elk River has 2-3 teams per grade
Blaine has 3-4 teams per grade
Champlin 2-3
Centennial 3-4


Coon Rapids youth basketball has 1 traveling girl's basketball team for 6/7 grade combined and there is no in-house basketball program for boys or girls.

I don't know the answers, but feel the MSHSL is doing it's best with what they are given.

And that’s true. 100%
And it’s true at Hopkins,
And it’s true at Burnsville
And it’s true at Eastview
And it’s true at Eagan (not the poverty but the only 1 7-8th grade football team)

Why do coon rapids kids deserve to win more than Hopkins and Burnsville kids?
Why do Coon rapids kids deserve to go to state semifinals in 2019 instead of spring lake park kids? If spring lake park parents were a little less involved could they go play 4a that year.


the state high school league might do the best they can. But they best they can be is apparently to be hypocritical morons.
When the league in charge of regulating fairness is intentionally gaming the schedule to help some teams wins at the expense of other teams, that’s bullshit.


sit Down kids from Isanti and st francis…we know that excluding each other you’ve combined to beat one 5a program this year. But you get to lose to a 6a team because they deserve to win.

 

[AO54]

And that’s true. 100%
And it’s true at Hopkins,
And it’s true at Burnsville
And it’s true at Eastview
And it’s true at Eagan (not the poverty but the only 1 7-8th grade football team)

Why do coon rapids kids deserve to win more than Hopkins and Burnsville kids?
Why do Coon rapids kids deserve to go to state semifinals in 2019 instead of spring lake park kids? If spring lake park parents were a little less involved could they go play 4a that year.


the state high school league might do the best they can. But they best they can be is apparently to be hypocritical morons.
When the league in charge of regulating fairness is intentionally gaming the schedule to help some teams wins at the expense of other teams, that’s bullshit.


sit Down kids from Isanti and st francis…we know that excluding each other you’ve combined to beat one 5a program this year. But you get to lose to a 6a team because they deserve to win.

I'm confused, you're complaining about the games against St. Francis and Cambridge-Isanti? A 3 point game and a 1 point game. Seems to me that when the game is so close, those teams clearly belong in the same division.

 

[Some guy]

I'm confused, you're complaining about the games against St. Francis and Cambridge-Isanti? A 3 point game and a 1 point game. Seems to me that when the game is so close, those teams clearly belong in the same division.

They don’t belong in the same division at all per the MSHSL’s own calculation.

those two schools have 8 shots at wins per year. One of them is a loss to a 6a school when the state has already said that 6a schools shouldn’t play 5a schools. (Unless you are coon rapids or brainerd).

a close game doesn’t make it a good decision.
does Hopkins losing by 50 to Lakeville south instead of playing a close game against coon rapids make more sense? No

Can a good argument be made that many 6a teams would be more competitive in 5a? Yes

can a good argument be made there are too many classes?
Yes

can a good argument be made 6a should be 16 or 24 teams instead of 32? Yes

That doesn’t mean the state should put losses on the schedule of bad teams (no matter how the close the losses are) to game the schedule for certain teams to win more. You can’t do that: it’s unfair to Hopkins, it’s unfair to Burnsville, it’s unfair to Cambridge,

Does coon rapids going to the state semi’s in the 5a playoffs in 2019 make it a good decision? No it means they achieved their goal of helping coon rapids win. But they did it at the expense of other programs. The MSHSL shouldn’t be picking winners and losers.



From the MSHSL founding purposes;
To establish uniform and equitable rules

they literally are writing special rules for one or two schools. Violating their own purpose statement. No where in their purpose statements does it talk about making sure certain programs don’t lose to much.

 

[mnsports1]

They don’t belong in the same division at all per the MSHSL’s own calculation.

those two schools have 8 shots at wins per year. One of them is a loss to a 6a school when the state has already said that 6a schools shouldn’t play 5a schools. (Unless you are coon rapids or brainerd).

a close game doesn’t make it a good decision.
does Hopkins losing by 50 to Lakeville south instead of playing a close game against coon rapids make more sense? No

Can a good argument be made that many 6a teams would be more competitive in 5a? Yes

can a good argument be made there are too many classes?
Yes

can a good argument be made 6a should be 16 or 24 teams instead of 32? Yes

That doesn’t mean the state should put losses on the schedule of bad teams (no matter how the close the losses are) to game the schedule for certain teams to win more. You can’t do that: it’s unfair to Hopkins, it’s unfair to Burnsville, it’s unfair to Cambridge,

Does coon rapids going to the state semi’s in the 5a playoffs in 2019 make it a good decision? No it means they achieved their goal of helping coon rapids win. But they did it at the expense of other programs. The MSHSL shouldn’t be picking winners and losers.



From the MSHSL founding purposes;
To establish uniform and equitable rules

they literally are writing special rules for one or two schools. Violating their own purpose statement. No where in their purpose statements does it talk about making sure certain programs don’t lose to much.

Doesn’t the MSHSL work for the member schools? Don’t the Minnesota schools elect board members from among their own Supers, Principals and Ad’s? Don’t those board members then hire league officers? The problem then would seem to be with your membership if that is how it operates in MN. (I am out of state so I don’t honestly know)

 

[Some guy]

Doesn’t the MSHSL work for the member schools? Don’t the Minnesota schools elect board members from among their own Supers, Principals and Ad’s? Don’t those board members then hire league officers? The problem then would seem to be with your membership if that is how it operates in MN. (I am out of state so I don’t honestly know)

Yes: the problem is with the board.

the problem with the board is that there are not many people on the board that know or care about football. I honestly don’t have a problem with the MSHSL and how it runs most sports…for football they have been horrible.

Last year for instance, the board moved football to spring: violated their own bilaws on process on how to do that. Then faced a lawsuit. Realizing they were going to lose because they violated their own bilaws, they decided to start the football season in mid October.

just one of many examples of the board not knowing what they are doing.


the structure of the board causes issues.
22 members.
The biggest half of the state sends 4 elected:
The smallest half the state sends 4 elected.
2 appointed by school board association (can of worms)
2 appointed by MASA (school administrators association)
2 appointed by MASSP (secondary school administrators)
1 rep for all boys sports, 1 for all girls sports, 1 for speech, 1 for music. Elected.
Four appointed by governor which has become more and more political.


of 22 board members, a maximum of 5 could be elected representatives of large school football…large school football includes much more than 6a teams.

of 22 board members 12 are essentially political appointees either directly or indirectly through some principals associations and school board associations.


Right now 4 of 22 members know anything about 6a football. And maybe 3…not sure how plugged in the prior lake superintendent is to football.

 

[Word]

Yes: the problem is with the board.

the problem with the board is that there are not many people on the board that know or care about football. I honestly don’t have a problem with the MSHSL and how it runs most sports…for football they have been horrible.

Last year for instance, the board moved football to spring: violated their own bilaws on process on how to do that. Then faced a lawsuit. Realizing they were going to lose because they violated their own bilaws, they decided to start the football season in mid October.

just one of many examples of the board not knowing what they are doing.


the structure of the board causes issues.
22 members.
The biggest half of the state sends 4 elected:
The smallest half the state sends 4 elected.
2 appointed by school board association (can of worms)
2 appointed by MASA (school administrators association)
2 appointed by MASSP (secondary school administrators)
1 rep for all boys sports, 1 for all girls sports, 1 for speech, 1 for music. Elected.
Four appointed by governor which has become more and more political.


of 22 board members, a maximum of 5 could be elected representatives of large school football…large school football includes much more than 6a teams.

of 22 board members 12 are essentially political appointees either directly or indirectly through some principals associations and school board associations.


Right now 4 of 22 members know anything about 6a football. And maybe 3…not sure how plugged in the prior lake superintendent is to football.

Did your team lose to Coon Rapids?

 

[Word]

Yes: the problem is with the board.

the problem with the board is that there are not many people on the board that know or care about football. I honestly don’t have a problem with the MSHSL and how it runs most sports…for football they have been horrible.

Last year for instance, the board moved football to spring: violated their own bilaws on process on how to do that. Then faced a lawsuit. Realizing they were going to lose because they violated their own bilaws, they decided to start the football season in mid October.

just one of many examples of the board not knowing what they are doing.


the structure of the board causes issues.
22 members.
The biggest half of the state sends 4 elected:
The smallest half the state sends 4 elected.
2 appointed by school board association (can of worms)
2 appointed by MASA (school administrators association)
2 appointed by MASSP (secondary school administrators)
1 rep for all boys sports, 1 for all girls sports, 1 for speech, 1 for music. Elected.
Four appointed by governor which has become more and more political.


of 22 board members, a maximum of 5 could be elected representatives of large school football…large school football includes much more than 6a teams.

of 22 board members 12 are essentially political appointees either directly or indirectly through some principals associations and school board associations.


Right now 4 of 22 members know anything about 6a football. And maybe 3…not sure how plugged in the prior lake superintendent is to football.

Are there other examples other than Coon Rapids? Is this an isolated situation or are exceptions like this being made all over the place?

 

[Some guy]

Did your team lose to Coon Rapids?

Nope have never played or coached them. My team does play Burnsville and Hopkins sometimes. And I can’t understand why coon rapids gets to play an alternate schedule and alternate playoffs and they don’t.

it is almost like the MSHSL favors some teams for no apparent reason.

 

[Word]

Nope have never played or coached them. My team does play Burnsville and Hopkins sometimes. And I can’t understand why coon rapids gets to play an alternate schedule and alternate playoffs and they don’t.

it is almost like the MSHSL favors some teams for no apparent reason.

Other examples other than Coon Rapids?

 

[Some guy]

Are there other examples other than Coon Rapids? Is this an isolated situation or are exceptions like this being made all over the place?

Brainerd this year… which is less infuriating because at least there is a travel cost argument to be made on that one. Have actually done Hopkins in the past but stopped for some reason for Hopkins but not for coon rapids…


it would be BETTER if there were other examples other than coon rapids. That coon rapids is the only real example points to the fact it is favoritism. I wonder who is friends with who that gets them special treatment

 

[Word]

Brainerd this year… which is less infuriating because at least there is a travel cost argument to be made on that one. Have actually done Hopkins in the past but stopped for some reason for Hopkins but not for coon rapids…

If it's relatively isolated to the Coon Rapids situation it sounds like mostly the formula is working and someone (maybe?) made a bad decision in the Coon Rapids case.
Have you brought your concerns to your AD? Have they brought them to MSHSL? If so, what did you hear back?

 

[MaxyJR1]

Yes: the problem is with the board.

the problem with the board is that there are not many people on the board that know or care about football. I honestly don’t have a problem with the MSHSL and how it runs most sports…for football they have been horrible.

Last year for instance, the board moved football to spring: violated their own bilaws on process on how to do that. Then faced a lawsuit. Realizing they were going to lose because they violated their own bilaws, they decided to start the football season in mid October.

just one of many examples of the board not knowing what they are doing.


the structure of the board causes issues.
22 members.
The biggest half of the state sends 4 elected:
The smallest half the state sends 4 elected.
2 appointed by school board association (can of worms)
2 appointed by MASA (school administrators association)
2 appointed by MASSP (secondary school administrators)
1 rep for all boys sports, 1 for all girls sports, 1 for speech, 1 for music. Elected.
Four appointed by governor which has become more and more political.


of 22 board members, a maximum of 5 could be elected representatives of large school football…large school football includes much more than 6a teams.

of 22 board members 12 are essentially political appointees either directly or indirectly through some principals associations and school board associations.


Right now 4 of 22 members know anything about 6a football. And maybe 3…not sure how plugged in the prior lake superintendent is to football.

Good information.

It's interesting the Private schools can option up, but can then go back to their class. Cretin went down to 5A this year. (Can of worms)
Other classes have same issues Marshall is a 4A team that plays 6 3A teams. St. Peter is 4A, but played a 2A team on their schedule. If 2A, 3A, and 4A teams can play each other, why can't 5A and 6A? Worthington is bigger than Marshall, but plays 3A.

There should maybe be some projection. Programs that are projected to continue to grow based on population should be bumped up sooner, than waiting for them to reach threshold.

Andover, Elk River, Rogers, Spring Lake Park possibly.

Kasson-Mantorville and Byron

Maybe they shouldn't move schools down until they exhibit that the program has regressed. Waseca moved down to 3AAA.

Here is my solution. Ends up with same amount of classes and champs.

6A- 24-32 teams

5/4A Be one class and split into an upper and lower playoff based on record or computer. Only play 5A and 4A schools.

3/2A Be one class and split into an upper and lower playoff based on record or computer. Only play 3A and 2A schools.

1A only play 1A schools

9-Man stay as 9-Man

 

[Some guy]

If it's relatively isolated to the Coon Rapids situation it sounds like mostly the formula is working and someone (maybe?) made a bad decision in the Coon Rapids case.
Have you brought your concerns to your AD? Have they brought them to MSHSL? If so, what did you hear back?

I have heard a lot of ADs are pissed about coon rapids situation.
they did respond and no longer allow coon rapids to opt down for playoffs. Only regular season.

the entirety of 6a football has been completely botched by MSHSL. Empty stadiums with teams not playing rivals 4 miles away and instead teams driving from Lakeville to forest lake on a Friday afternoon to play in a blowout