marcus asks if gopher athletics should address how athletes feel about police

[STPGopher]

Have you heard of an automated license plate reader? It is a device that goes on a cop car that reads the plate of al the cars around it and checks for issues. If someone is driving while revoked or has warrants, it is not uncommon for those people to rack up to 10-15 actives, which means that person has been pulled over for driving under restraint (suspended, denied or revoked license). They are classified as habitual traffic offenders and we see a lot of them here in northern Colorado. The vast majority of them are white. That, along with driving a car that is not in working order and generally being a bad motorist will rack up the traffic contacts white or black.

Edit: sorry about the typos and stuff. I don't usually post on my phone.

All fair points. Could you shed light on whether or not the officer would know if a driver has a know felony history? This could be of importance because even if the drive "fits" a description, wouldn't one take into account that this is a history of a "habitual" traffic offender, not a robbery suspect. I state this in regards to the concept of positive vs negative escalation.

 

[Some Day...Is Coming!]

I didn't disobey the officers or try to steal their gun, or reach into my pockets. This isn't difficult. It really isn't. You're projecting other problems onto this.

You're right, police officers have always treated black men just hunky dory. And you're right again, you were their, the young black man disobeyed the police officer. Never mind the police officer didn't follow procedure if he thought he was a robbery suspect. Obviously you can sympathize with black men because you are one and grew up, oh wait, Nevermind, you're white, I'm sure you think about what it's like to be black quite often though. I mean, no criminal record, broken taillight, told the officer you have a gun, lots of white people get killed that way too, see it all the time. Oh ya, and obviously the 4 year old girl was an accomplice. Those damn blacks, why can't they listen?


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[GopherHomer]

I've been pulled over a handful of times, and obviously asked to produce ID and registration which inevitably leads to me either reaching into my back pocket and/or into the glove compartment. I'm white - and regardless of how I feel about the current state of the blacks/cops modern relationship (I'm truly torn) I can sympathize with how nervous I would be if I were black - not quite knowing how to approach the same situation.

One time I even 'fit the description' of somebody and was asked to get out of the car. The officer asked if he could search my pockets and put me in the back of his squad car while he ran my license. It wasn't until he figured out that I wasn't who he thought I was, that he told me that I fit a description and that was why he was doing all of this. The whole situation left me pretty shook-up, and that was with the officer being fairly respectful and gentle throughout the ordeal (which isn't surprising because at the time I was a 135lb, baby-faced, 19 year old white college kid). All I'm saying is that there are a lot of variables that could have turned that eventual innocuous situation into a real cluster-f*ck - and I'm sure my race had some protective qualities and I can see why any non-white person would be a tad nervous being pulled over these days (or in the past, I guess too).

 

[KD6-3.7]

All fair points. Could you shed light on whether or not the officer would know if a driver has a know felony history? This could be of importance because even if the drive "fits" a description, wouldn't one take into account that this is a history of a "habitual" traffic offender, not a robbery suspect. I state this in regards to the concept of positive vs negative escalation.

as far as i know, running someone's plates only relays traffic and warrant history of the registered owner and it would take another search to show criminal background.

 

[Spoofin]

I mean, no criminal record, broken taillight, told the officer you have a gun, lots of white people get killed that way too, see it all the time.

So you were there? Yes, this is what the camerawoman said, but how do you know it was the case? Hearsay. Since you were educating, let me. Every once in a while someone claims something that is later proven by facts to be untrue. Sorry to break that to you. Maybe she is telling the truth here? I don't know and neither do you.

Unfortunately, in this case, so many will think this was the case even if facts later prove it wasn't ("hands up, don't shoot") because it fits their belief. Those same will believe the info Gov. Dayton said on the case even tho it has already been proven false. Guilty even if proven innocent.


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[Pompous Elitist]

I asked for your point to be clarified in a previous post. You did not do so.

If you're talking about my statement on BLM, I was referring to the fact BLM issued a statement after the Dallas killings that essentially said they were concerned that the killings might disrupt their planned highway shutdowns and be associated with their movement. Clueless, disrespectful, and inflammatory. There is a time and season for everything but their leaders and followers are not mature enough or balanced enough to know when and how. It's just blind rage, as exhibited in this thread.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

The latest example of profiling I heard was the black Republican senator from South Carolina talking about being stopped 7 times last year. Not sure if his vehicle was screaming look at me. It would stand to reason that the more encounters you have, the more chance for something to go wrong. Also, while you're very accepting of profiling I can see that members of a profiled group might be a bit less accepting

One anecdote. No doubt there are cops that harass people for little to no reason including skin color. Not all people are nice or perfect- surprise!

Young people are harassed more than old gophers. Is that profiling? Ageism? Should there be a quota to maintain 1:1 traffic stops between young people: old Gophs?

 

[alchemy2u]

So you were there? Yes, this is what the camerawoman said, but how do you know it was the case? Hearsay. Since you were educating, let me. Every once in a while someone claims something that is later proven by facts to be untrue. Sorry to break that to you. Maybe she is telling the truth here? I don't know and neither do you.

Unfortunately, in this case, so many will think this was the case even if facts later prove it wasn't ("hands up, don't shoot") because it fits their belief. Those same will believe the info Gov. Dayton said on the case even tho it has already been proven false. Guilty even if proven innocent.


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Oh, you mean take a side before all the facts are out, just as you are doing. No, can't see how that could happen.


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[Pompous Elitist]

At the risk of opening wounds, this is what is troubling many. Too many people can relate to what this senator experienced. When I was in my late 20's not only was I called down from my own deck at gun point because I was suspected of robbing my own house, I was stopped on average 2 to 4 times a month for approximately a year. This was in my own neighborhood. Never given a ticket for those stops. One time(earlier in my adult life) I was told by an officer that he was stopping me because the only people that were out that time of night were: Doctors, nurses, ambulance drivers, newspaper delivery guys , and criminals. I was then asked which one I was. My response of being a freight handler at UPS was not well received. I was viewed as being uppity for giving an honest response. The first time this happened the one officer followed me to UPS. I was actually happy about that part, because my supervisor was at the door pointing at his watch. I pointed at the police car and he said okay" but don't let it happen again. Like I could promise that one. -lol

These experiences troubled me because I was trusted to deliver Multi-million dollar checks to the Federal Reserve for one of my jobs(bonded twice). Uncle Sam, was sore at me because they wanted me to enlist in their Nuke Power program via the Navy(long story, relevent because my background checks for that program included the NSA ) but to a select few officers, I was a "suspect" a "thug". Rough period, especially when I used to feed police at a restaurant. I fondly remember those officers. They stuck up for me when an officer that wanted to arrest me because I was a "suspect" Luck for me, they intervened and said "He just left work. We ate at his job."

I can relate to the players tweets, because I was them. I wasn't as gifted as them obviously, I only played at the J.C. Level, but... All I was guilty of was working my butt off and trying to do the right thing. I could tell more stories, but I won't burden you with them. All I can say is thank you family for saying "if I brought the police to the door you'd beat me then give me to the police. Anything less than a clean record and who knows what would have happened.

Getting back to the point I was responding to, bogus stops are what fueled the late Johnny Cockran to take his most famous case. Too many people from all/ various backgrounds can relate to the few bad apples, and the poorly trained. Unfortunately that is how we are wired as humans. Negative experiences stick with us.

For clarity. I personnally am not attacking police. I know of too many good ones. I have also had many positive experiences with Law Enforcement officers. I just don't appreciate bad/ negative policing.

The problem is that you're extrapolating your personal experiences onto the police force as a whole. It is natural for us to do that, but we should try and resist. Most blacks are not criminal thugs. Some are. Can I go around saying blacks are waging open war on society?

You're doing exactly what you say the police should not do, which is form sweeping generalizations and stereotypes.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Plausible. Gonna be tough to argue away pulling him over for having a broad nose though. If it was right after the robbery, that makes sense. Several days later(assuming July 2nd was the day of the robbery. Unsubstantiated source) ? Did they think he was returning to the scene? Guess we'll have to wait to see.

This is where so many become intellectually dishonest. There were security cam photos of the suspects and Castile very closely matched his appearance. If it can be shown this cop was randomly pulling blacks over all day, every day without probable cause you might have a case.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

I do understand and appreciate your points. What I will say is that sometimes it takes a tragedy to fix issues. Was the governor perfect in his speech? Perhaps not. What I am thankful for is that he can influence lasting change that is good for all. Regarding the the lady who streamed to Facebook? If she had not, nobody would have known her/ their story. Film crews showing protesters being hosed down by water cannons comes to mind. Without that, the rest of the country may have never known. They would have assumed the police were in the right.

Some changes that might help?:

Body Cams(IMHO Should be studied/ thought out first). Agreed, this would solve many problems

Two Officers per car(funding an issue?). Not practical, and cams should help negate this

End private training without proper review. Can you give examples

Restore more Community policing(more beat cops that know the community they serve). Can't see any problems with that-isn't this practiced in most cities?

That's just a start.

I'm happy to see you are not supporting BLM's agenda of dissolving police departments and releasing criminals. I would add I'd like to see increased funding of public defenders as these folks are overworked and underpaid. Good representation should be available to everyone.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

You're right, police officers have always treated black men just hunky dory. And you're right again, you were their, the young black man disobeyed the police officer. Never mind the police officer didn't follow procedure if he thought he was a robbery suspect. Obviously you can sympathize with black men because you are one and grew up, oh wait, Nevermind, you're white, I'm sure you think about what it's like to be black quite often though. I mean, no criminal record, broken taillight, told the officer you have a gun, lots of white people get killed that way too, see it all the time. Oh ya, and obviously the 4 year old girl was an accomplice. Those damn blacks, why can't they listen?


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Whoa, you're jumping to many conclusions there. Stop with the race-baiting. I don't know what happened in this particular case and neither do you unless you're taking Lavish's side as fact. The officer (to my ear) screamed about how he told Castile not to go for it (I assume he means the gun-allegedly in his lap). The audio isn't totally clear.

To the latter part of your rant, the videos I've seen always include the suspect not obeying directions, approaching the cops, holding a hand behind their back, etc etc. So yes, I stand behind my statement most of these shootings are justified. Many are suicide by cop. There was one that just came out in Fresno CA where the guy didn't have a gun but was acting like he did. Could he have been tased? Maybe but would you let that person come near you, and trust the taser to work? Really? Be honest.

 

[zman]

If you're talking about my statement on BLM, I was referring to the fact BLM issued a statement after the Dallas killings that essentially said they were concerned that the killings might disrupt their planned highway shutdowns and be associated with their movement. Clueless, disrespectful, and inflammatory. There is a time and season for everything but their leaders and followers are not mature enough or balanced enough to know when and how. It's just blind rage, as exhibited in this thread.

This part of this discussion has confused me. What you initially wrote was ":Immediately after the shootings in Dallas BLM was more worried about calls to stand down and calm the situation than to continue the unrest." To me what you first wrote could be interpreted to mean that they were concerned that people wouldn't stand down and issues could escalate, which is the opposite of what you meant.

I think others might be equally confused by what you meant.

Hopefully my explanation makes sense.

 

[Spoofin]

Oh, you mean take a side before all the facts are out, just as you are doing. No, can't see how that could happen.


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Enlighten me on what side I am taking? Even in the post you quoted I said I don't know what happened. In my previous one I acknowledged that it would be dumb to deny profiling and racist acts by police happen. I also think it is dumb to assume that is what happened every time there is a tragedy like this.

The side I am on is that assuming this was a racist act w/o facts because of what the camerawoman said is irresponsible. I have no clue if what she said is true or not. 50/50 in my book. Further, when public figures spew misinformation at a press conference that only hurts progress on this topic.


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[Pompous Elitist]

This part of this discussion has confused me. What you initially wrote was ":Immediately after the shootings in Dallas BLM was more worried about calls to stand down and calm the situation than to continue the unrest." To me what you first wrote could be interpreted to mean that they were concerned that people wouldn't stand down and issues could escalate, which is the opposite of what you meant.

I think others might be equally confused by what you meant.

Hopefully my explanation makes sense.

I wasn't clear. I'm usually typing in haste. The hole is an unhealthy distraction from a very busy life.
Hope I clarified.

 

[Jack jones]

Let's see according to the Harvard Professor more white people are kiled by police than black. Pretty much ends the discussion.

 

[GopherHomer]

Let's see according to the Harvard Professor more white people are kiled by police than black. Pretty much ends the discussion.

Haven't seen the stat, and don't know the exact demographics but considering the white population is far greater than the black your comment means less than NOTHING.

 

[alchemy2u]

Let's see according to the Harvard Professor more white people are kiled by police than black. Pretty much ends the discussion.

Wow, are you really that stupid?


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[Jack jones]

Just quoting what I read in the NY Times. Even more amazing is that it was a black Professor who created the study. He tried to find his "math" mistake but gave up and just released the results. Some how he took into account the difference in population.

 

[highwayman]

Haven't seen the stat, and don't know the exact demographics but considering the white population is far greater than the black your comment means less than NOTHING.

Wow, are you really that stupid?


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I was going off of what was or wasnot known last night. I could be wrong, but it still appears that the shooter had no ties to the protest.

There was talk of McVeigh having issues with race as well.

Turned out you were wrong. A racist killed those cops.

 

[highwayman]

Haven't seen the stat, and don't know the exact demographics but considering the white population is far greater than the black your comment means less than NOTHING.

Wow, are you really that stupid?


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You can play with the numbers all you want. Doesn't change the fact that more non-blacks, total number or percentage. are shot by police. Choke on that for a while. I repeat, and will repeat, over and over. These are solid facts, backed up by the DOJ.:

1. Cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015. According to data compiled by The Washington Post, 50 percent of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, while 26 percent were black.

2. More whites and Hispanics die from police shootings than blacks. According to MacDonald, 12 percent of white and Hispanic shooting deaths were due to police officers, while only four percent of black shooting deaths were the result of police officers.

3. The Post's data does show that unarmed black men are more likely to die by the gun of a cop than an unarmed white man. At least five black victims had reportedly tried to grab the officer’s gun, or had been beating the cop with his own equipment. All but one of these was caught on camera. Some were shot from an accidental discharge triggered by their own assault on the officer. And two individuals included in the Post’s “unarmed black victims” category were struck by stray bullets aimed at someone else in justified cop shootings. If the victims were not the intended targets, then racism could have played no role in their deaths.

4. Black and Hispanic police officers are more likely to fire a gun at blacks than white officers. This is according to a Department of Justice report in 2015 about the Philadelphia Police Department, and is further confirmed that by a study conducted University of Pennsylvania criminologist Gary Ridgeway in 2015 that determined black cops were 3.3 times more likely to fire a gun than other cops at a crime scene.

5. Blacks are more likely to kill cops than be killed by cops. This is according to FBI data, which also found that 40 percent of cop killers are black. According to MacDonald, the police officer is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black than a cop killing an unarmed black person.

6. It would take cops 40 years to kill as many black men as have died at the hands of others black men in 2012 alone.
University of Toledo criminologist Dr. Richard R. Johnson examined the latest crime data from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports and Centers for Disease Control and found that an average of 4,472 black men were killed by other black men annually between Jan. 1, 2009, and Dec. 31, 2012.

---Heather McDonald
http://www.city-journal.org/contribu...mac-donald_122
---Jerome Hudson
http://www.breitbart.com/author/jerome-hudson/

 

[Old Goph]

One anecdote. No doubt there are cops that harass people for little to no reason including skin color. Not all people are nice or perfect- surprise!

Young people are harassed more than old gophers. Is that profiling? Ageism? Should there be a quota to maintain 1:1 traffic stops between young people: old Gophs?

Yeah, it does come down to anecdotes. You've posted yours and I've posted mine. There's obviously nothing definitive. I think one of our many differences of opinion is I'm more willing to grant credence to the claim of many black citizens that they are routinely singled out for traffic stops simply because of their race, regardless of their propensity for law-breaking behavior. I cited the U.S. Senator, but their are countless other examples of other professionals who experience the same thing. You like to cite other groups like youngsters who are also profiled, and you've even cited the younger and dumber version of yourself who was targeted. What's different in your examples, is youngsters get older, and you (presumably) got smarter and got your act together and thereby moved out of the profile, and therefore the traffic stops ceased. Unfortunately for the black citizens in my anecdotes, there's nothing they can do behaviorally to move out of the profile. You seem to acknowledge this profiling exists and is a valid policing tactic. What's mostly troubling to me is the seemingly matter-of-fact manner in which you chalk up profiling as just something that happens to all of us at some time or other, without acknowledging that there's a group that will always be singled out.

 

[GopherHomer]

You can play with the numbers all you want. Doesn't change the fact that more non-blacks, total number or percentage. are shot by police. Choke on that for a while. I repeat, and will repeat, over and over. These are solid facts, backed up by the DOJ.:

1. Cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015. According to data compiled by The Washington Post, 50 percent of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, while 26 percent were black.

2. More whites and Hispanics die from police shootings than blacks. According to MacDonald, 12 percent of white and Hispanic shooting deaths were due to police officers, while only four percent of black shooting deaths were the result of police officers.

3. The Post's data does show that unarmed black men are more likely to die by the gun of a cop than an unarmed white man. At least five black victims had reportedly tried to grab the officer’s gun, or had been beating the cop with his own equipment. All but one of these was caught on camera. Some were shot from an accidental discharge triggered by their own assault on the officer. And two individuals included in the Post’s “unarmed black victims” category were struck by stray bullets aimed at someone else in justified cop shootings. If the victims were not the intended targets, then racism could have played no role in their deaths.

4. Black and Hispanic police officers are more likely to fire a gun at blacks than white officers. This is according to a Department of Justice report in 2015 about the Philadelphia Police Department, and is further confirmed that by a study conducted University of Pennsylvania criminologist Gary Ridgeway in 2015 that determined black cops were 3.3 times more likely to fire a gun than other cops at a crime scene.

5. Blacks are more likely to kill cops than be killed by cops. This is according to FBI data, which also found that 40 percent of cop killers are black. According to MacDonald, the police officer is 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black than a cop killing an unarmed black person.

6. It would take cops 40 years to kill as many black men as have died at the hands of others black men in 2012 alone.
University of Toledo criminologist Dr. Richard R. Johnson examined the latest crime data from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports and Centers for Disease Control and found that an average of 4,472 black men were killed by other black men annually between Jan. 1, 2009, and Dec. 31, 2012.

---Heather McDonald
http://www.city-journal.org/contribu...mac-donald_122
---Jerome Hudson
http://www.breitbart.com/author/jerome-hudson/

The study seems legitimate so I'm not arguing the facts you have laid out, but the country is 62.6% white and 13.2% black - your own numbers show that blacks are killed at a higher rate than whites relative to their prevalence in society. But, enough of this - we are talking about people losing their lives...please don't take my opposition to you as not caring about officers/citizens of any race being murdered. Point #6, though, really means nothing for this conversation - black on black crime is truly an issue but I'm not sure what that has to do with the police.

 

[zman]

Point #6, though, really means nothing for this conversation - black on black crime is truly an issue but I'm not sure what that has to do with the police.

It doesn't really have anything to do with police, per se. It's all part of the bigger conversation where many of us bristle at the immediate outrage at a police killing when there is very little outrage at black-on-black killings.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

No they should not be baited by the media into this false narrative. It's certainly not for their benefit that he suggests or asks the question

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Yeah, it does come down to anecdotes. You've posted yours and I've posted mine. There's obviously nothing definitive. I think one of our many differences of opinion is I'm more willing to grant credence to the claim of many black citizens that they are routinely singled out for traffic stops simply because of their race, regardless of their propensity for law-breaking behavior. I cited the U.S. Senator, but their are countless other examples of other professionals who experience the same thing. You like to cite other groups like youngsters who are also profiled, and you've even cited the younger and dumber version of yourself who was targeted. What's different in your examples, is youngsters get older, and you (presumably) got smarter and got your act together and thereby moved out of the profile, and therefore the traffic stops ceased. Unfortunately for the black citizens in my anecdotes, there's nothing they can do behaviorally to move out of the profile. You seem to acknowledge this profiling exists and is a valid policing tactic. What's mostly troubling to me is the seemingly matter-of-fact manner in which you chalk up profiling as just something that happens to all of us at some time or other, without acknowledging that there's a group that will always be singled out.

Looking deeper at the studies, it turns out black cops stop blacks as often as white cops (eg even majority black departments like the New Orleans PD). How can this be? Perhaps they understand the criminal profile better than Old Goph. The data on profiling is surprisingly bad. Not saying it doesn't happen but I don't think it amounts to open war. Young men are disproportionately engaged by police because young men and particularly black and to a lesser extent Latino commit the majority of crime. Is it possible bad statistics could be seized upon by those with a pre-existing narrative, for political purposes? Surely not.

Scenario: a young middle-eastern man wearing a bulky jacket on an 85 degree day walks into your airport. Do you search him or a 50 yr old Hispanic lady, or a 8 yr old Caucasian girl? Are you profiling or just using common sense?

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Th common theme I'm seeing is that the profiling numbers are not adjusted for population demographics or crime rate.

This is analogous to the faulty argument that whites are killed more than blacks in absolute numbers, which is true but one has to look at demographics (whites outnumber blacks 62 to 13%). I'm not seeîng the same math applied in reverse. In a majority black city where suspects are black and blacks are known to commit more crimes (at rates 4 times the general population), doesn't it make sense they are stopped at a higher rate?

 

[short ornery norwegian]

As in all things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
People want to divide everything into absolutes.
Cops are always right vs. the Cops are always wrong
Black men are being unfairly profiled vs. Blacks are criminals- profiling is justified.
The stats show X vs. The stats show Y.

Back to original point of thread - I throw out two questions:
A. Should Gopher Coaches discuss these issues with players? I say Yes - better safe than sorry.
B. Do you think they will discuss these issues with players? Again, I say Yes. FB staff puts big emphasis on off-field behavior.

 

[alchemy2u]

As in all things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
People want to divide everything into absolutes.
Cops are always right vs. the Cops are always wrong
Black men are being unfairly profiled vs. Blacks are criminals- profiling is justified.
The stats show X vs. The stats show Y.

Back to original point of thread - I throw out two questions:
A. Should Gopher Coaches discuss these issues with players? I say Yes - better safe than sorry.
B. Do you think they will discuss these issues with players? Again, I say Yes. FB staff puts big emphasis on off-field behavior.

So true. As long as people pick just one side there will be no progress. We have to address the root issues to the problems and work together to improve the situation.

Siting stats that cops kill more white people than black people does not add any comfort to the situation. In fact, it should frighten us all. Don't get me wrong, I am not anti police, but something has to be done about the militarization of our police forces. They are here to serve and protect, not to carry out the objectives of the military.


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[highwayman]

Don't get me wrong, I am not anti police, but something has to be done about the militarization of our police forces. They are here to serve and protect, not to carry out the objectives of the military.


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Pure ignorance. The root of this problem is not the police. At all. It has not been escalated by the police. At all. It is ALWAYS escalated by the bad guys. Always. You can't protect or serve a society that has been wrecked by the loss of self control, respect, and personal responsibility.

I think the cops do a fabulous job of managing an unmanageable situation. I say we set up zones like "Escape From New York" or "Mad Max" and see how it works, because that is what happens when you remove the police. The lions kill the lambs. The 20% of the society that are feral will destroy the rest.

Done with this thread. Love your family.