Lets Calm Down About the Offense

[oleboy41]

I consider myself a realist when it comes to this Foozeball fandom thing. I think some Gopher fans need to accept some things and move on before they have an ulcer. The offense last night wasn’t great but it wasn’t as bad as it seems. Why?

- Lets remember who TCU is. Patterson has consistently fielded one of the best defenses in the country for about 10 years now. That defense is specifically designed to stop the run and get to the QB. Sure that sounds generic as a lot of defenses want to stop the run, but TCU’s entire philosophy is to shut down the middle, bounce runs outside and then get after the QB and force you to throw downfield. So basically their D is tailor made to stop what we do well. The 1 thing we could theoretically do is hit them right up the gut but remember, this team has done the same to teams like WI before who ran it better than we do
- OL was in shambles. We entered the game with 5 guys who didn’t start last year (at least as consistent starters). Our early drives were killed because Lauer couldn’t move at all and that led to a quick TCU TD. A large reason for optimism for this OL was the move of Camp inside with Lauer and Pirsig at tackle. We didn’t really see that obviously last night. That said, once Lauer was pulled the line play definitely improved but it still wasn’t what it will be later in the year.
- Run game was inconsistent. It seemed like the only time we got any rhythm in the run game was out of the no huddle. The line had some nice plays but overall couldn’t get to the second level enough to seal the inside backers. Again that is TCU’s entire philosophy but still, we did it a few times. The other positive is that Smith looked like the real deal. Physically he looked quick and athletic but he also showed vision and shiftiness. Roderick had some nice runs too but I think he needs to be a little more aggressive.
- WRs actually played ok. Now on TV its impossible to really say who was open, who ran good routes, etc if it was more than 10-15 yards downfield. That said it was nice to see Maye, Woli and Carter making plays in traffic at times. Better than last year for sure. We do need to put more vertical pressure on the D beyond throwing jump balls to Still. That said this is obviously a young group that will get better. It wasn’t a great night but there were positive signs against a well coached, structurally sound D when their QB didn’t have much time. TEs weren’t targeted much but Woz looks better than I thought
- Mitch wasn’t great but he wasn’t terrible. We need to realize that he is not and will not be Boykin or an OSU QB. He can be successful with a solid run game to provide PA and time to throw. He was pretty solid last night when he had time. He did miss a few but for all of you acting like that’s the end of the world, so did Boykin and his were worse. College QBs will miss some throws. Not saying it’s a good thing but it happens. Another thing to note is that out of the no huddle Mitch was comfortable, confident and largely accurate even though his receivers were often well covered. This is the best D he will face until OSU and I think we see an improved Leidner this year
- Overall judging only from what I saw last night and knowing that a number of guys that appear to be in line for a lot of PT were out or limited WR, TE and OL this looks like it could be a better offense than last year once our line gets settled and the young skill guys get on the same page with the QB. As bad as it seemed we fumbled away one TD and 24 pts would look a lot better than 17

 

[jaymil]

People need to get over the fact that Mitch doesn't throw a pretty ball. He's still relatively effective and is just an average QB. Deal with it.

He is NOT the worst QB in the country.

He is NOT the worst QB in Gopher history.

And there is NOT a better option sitting on the bench.

I have read all 3 of the above statements from "fans" since last night's game. It's ridiculous.

Good post Oleboy

 

[BleedGopher]

I have read all 3 of the above statements from "fans" since last night's game. It's ridiculous.

Not sure if the use of "" in "fans" is trying to discredit the intensity of one's "fandom" but if so, I don't get it. If someone has a different take than you (even if it is an irrational take), no reason to discredit their fanaticism. We are a fan base that hasn't had a ton of success over the years, yet last night the place was packed, GopherHole has been crazy busy with excitement and high traffic, etc. If people attend games, post on GopherHole, etc. it seems to me they are fans, differed analysis and all.

Go Gophers!!

 

[Nokomis]

Agree on the O and Mitch. There is no other QB in the West that I'd rather have on this team than Mitch. He is a gamer and the clear leader of this team.

 

[MinneStoa]

Very good post, oleboy. Losses tend to bring the chronic pessimists out of the woodwork, especially if it's the first game of the season.

Mitch did pretty decently when you note the porous O Line and the balls that bounced off receivers hands. He wasn't great, but he was about what I expected.

There were definitely areas of concern that emerged from this game, but on the whole I'm encouraged by the performance. We held a very good team to a very low point total, and drove down the field for a touchdown in the 4th quarter when we needed to (even if we couldn't do it again in the last 30 seconds).

 

[jaymil]

Not sure if the use of "" in "fans" is trying to discredit the intensity of one's "fandom" but if so, I don't get it. If someone has a different take than you (even if it is an irrational take), no reason to discredit their fanaticism. We are a fan base that hasn't had a ton of success over the years, yet last night the place was packed, GopherHole has been crazy busy with excitement and high traffic, etc. If people attend games, post on GopherHole, etc. it seems to me they are fans, differed analysis and all.

Go Gophers!!

I'm more or less talking about the people who only show up on this site in game threads when things are going wrong and obsess over QB play, calling him terrible, etc. Read through the game thread and you'll see what I mean. The quotes were meant to show my doubt that they are actually fans of the team. I'm certainly not opposed to opinions that differ from mine. I'm wrong all the time. And to be frank, IMO there's only so much criticism a college kid should take, especially one like Leidner who is so respected as a leader and person. A lot of people who are actual diehard fans of the team cross the line.

 

[BleedGopher]

I'm more or less talking about the people who only show up on this site in game threads when things are going wrong and obsess over QB play, calling him terrible, etc. Read through the game thread and you'll see what I mean. The quotes were meant to show my doubt that they are actually fans of the team. I'm certainly not opposed to opinions that differ from mine. I'm wrong all the time. And to be frank, IMO there's only so much criticism a college kid should take, especially one like Leidner who is so respected as a leader and person. A lot of people who are actual diehard fans of the team cross the line.

Gotcha. Makes sense.

Go Gophers!!

 

[60's Guy]

Ya but

People need to get over the fact that Mitch doesn't throw a pretty ball. He's still relatively effective and is just an average QB. Deal with it.

He is NOT the worst QB in the country.
I agree
He is NOT the worst QB in Gopher history. I agree.

And there is NOT a better option sitting on the bench. We won't know that for several weeks. Time will answer that.

I have read all 3 of the above statements from "fans" since last night's game. It's ridiculous. A quarterback who finishes with a QBR rating of 18 did not play an average game. Not denying he might be the best option and will support him if he is but Mitch or somebody else has to play the position more effectively for us to be "good"

Good post Oleboy

The play of the quarterback is a greater factor or more important in the outcome of a game than any other position. We all have opinions how much their play impacts games and how much responsibility they bear for their team's performance. http://espn.go.com/ncf/qbr/_/sort/qbr

 

[oleboy41]

I'm more or less talking about the people who only show up on this site in game threads when things are going wrong and obsess over QB play, calling him terrible, etc. Read through the game thread and you'll see what I mean. The quotes were meant to show my doubt that they are actually fans of the team. I'm certainly not opposed to opinions that differ from mine. I'm wrong all the time. And to be frank, IMO there's only so much criticism a college kid should take, especially one like Leidner who is so respected as a leader and person. A lot of people who are actual diehard fans of the team cross the line.

I just think a lot of fans are ONLY fans of this team which means they have no perspective. I know I'm a bit of a football nerd but watching a lot of other CFB that's not MN or B1G or even just the helmet schools gives great perspective on what we can actually expect. I've seen a ton of college QBs so its clear to me that its silly to blast the QB for a game like last night. QBs that can excel DESPITE inexperienced receivers AND porous OL play are the exception. If you're not a helmet school or a school that centers its offense around the QB then you rejoice if you have one of those guys but you can't EXPECT a guy like Mitch to just magically play great with an unsteady pocket, an inconsistent running game and only 1 WR he's used to throwing to in game situations. You just can't if you're trying to be reasonable. It is legit to note that he missed some throws but it shows you're either disingenuous or simply don't know FB very well if you simultaneously refuse to acknowledge the fact that he also delivered a number of very good, very accurate throws last night against a potentially great defense.

 

[oleboy41]

The play of the quarterback is a greater factor or more important in the outcome of a game than any other position. We all have opinions how much their play impacts games and how much responsibility they bear for their team's performance. http://espn.go.com/ncf/qbr/_/sort/qbr

Opinions are fine but what I'm seeing is people demanding greatness from the QB instead of competence. Mitch was pretty competent last night in many areas. If he would have played better we could've had a better chance to win. Thing is we can and should say the same thing about the OL. Just because Mitch could have played better does not mean that it is a reasonable expectation given the circumstances. And not only that but why continue to (as a fan) lament the lack of greatness from someone you already know isn't great and won't be great? Our formula for success on offense is simple: run the ball, use PA, protect the QB. When those things happen our QB play has been good enough to beat almost everyone we play.

 

[jmag21]

This backlash to the backlash is a bit ridiculous too, imo. You can say Mitch was poor last night (he was) while also acknowledging that he was certainly not helped out a ton by his receivers, the line, or even the playcalling, and even acknowledging that there probably isn't anybody on the bench who can do appreciably better at this point. But let's not forget, Mitch missed some wide, wide open receivers last night, and held the ball too long some other times. No, he's not Johnny Unitas, and we shouldn't expect him to be, but there's a wide gulf between vitriolic personal attacks and just sincere and reasoned criticism of aspects of his game.

 

[Maverick]

This backlash to the backlash is a bit ridiculous too, imo. You can say Mitch was poor last night (he was) while also acknowledging that he was certainly not helped out a ton by his receivers, the line, or even the playcalling, and even acknowledging that there probably isn't anybody on the bench who can do appreciably better at this point. But let's not forget, Mitch missed some wide, wide open receivers last night, and held the ball too long some other times. No, he's not Johnny Unitas, and we shouldn't expect him to be, but there's a wide gulf between vitriolic personal attacks and just sincere and reasoned criticism of aspects of his game.

So did Boykin (miss wide open receivers and hold it too long).... Are their fans murderous about that? Mitch is a solid leader, needs to get past this plateau or whatever you want to call it, but he's our man.

 

[oleboy41]

This backlash to the backlash is a bit ridiculous too, imo. You can say Mitch was poor last night (he was) while also acknowledging that he was certainly not helped out a ton by his receivers, the line, or even the playcalling, and even acknowledging that there probably isn't anybody on the bench who can do appreciably better at this point. But let's not forget, Mitch missed some wide, wide open receivers last night, and held the ball too long some other times. No, he's not Johnny Unitas, and we shouldn't expect him to be, but there's a wide gulf between vitriolic personal attacks and just sincere and reasoned criticism of aspects of his game.

When did these things happen? And you may be right but I don't recall. He threw some high and some low but again, so did Boykin. And often holding the ball long is the result of not having anyone open. The one time it was egregious was the goal line sack. My point though is that MOST of the criticism of Leidner isn't what you're describing. Its completely without context and hyperbolic

 

[Maximus]

So did Boykin (miss wide open receivers and hold it too long).... Are their fans murderous about that?

His 338 total yards and two TDs in a win probably tempered their murderous urges.

Every year we have the same thread. About Leidner, Nelson, Gray, Weber.....can this program please develop a QB that is more than solid, average.

Minnesota hasn't had a first team Big Ten QB since 1938. Two second team Big Ten QBs in the last 20 years.

From 1975-87, the overall team mvp was a QB nine times. From 1988-2014, four QBs have been team mvp.

Minnesota hasn't had a QB drafted since 1972. Three in its history.

 

[Mulligan]

I'm more or less talking about the people who only show up on this site in game threads when things are going wrong and obsess over QB play, calling him terrible, etc. Read through the game thread and you'll see what I mean. The quotes were meant to show my doubt that they are actually fans of the team. I'm certainly not opposed to opinions that differ from mine. I'm wrong all the time. And to be frank, IMO there's only so much criticism a college kid should take, especially one like Leidner who is so respected as a leader and person. A lot of people who are actual diehard fans of the team cross the line.

Thanks, already they're tiresome.

 

[Governor Sibley]

His 338 total yards and two TDs in a win probably tempered their murderous urges.

Every year we have the same thread. About Leidner, Nelson, Gray, Weber.....can this program please develop a QB that is more than solid, average.

Minnesota hasn't had a first team Big Ten QB since 1938. Two second team Big Ten QBs in the last 20 years.

From 1975-87, the overall team mvp was a QB nine times. From 1988-2014, four QBs have been team mvp.

Minnesota hasn't had a QB drafted since 1972. Three in its history.

 

[nsmike]

One very positive sign for the offense is that, they successfully executed the two minute offense against a good defense, I know it was too little too late, but they never did that last year.

 

[BleedGopher]

His 338 total yards and two TDs in a win probably tempered their murderous urges.

Every year we have the same thread. About Leidner, Nelson, Gray, Weber.....can this program please develop a QB that is more than solid, average.

Minnesota hasn't had a first team Big Ten QB since 1938. Two second team Big Ten QBs in the last 20 years.

From 1975-87, the overall team mvp was a QB nine times. From 1988-2014, four QBs have been team mvp.

Minnesota hasn't had a QB drafted since 1972. Three in its history.

Wow. Those are some crazy stats. Sobering to say the least.

Go Gophers!!

 

[Rodney's Open]

Leidner is not a an average QB. He's really really bad. He can't throw it deep and he can't really throw it short. He can't run that fast and he can't read the playclock. Is he a good person? Probably. Does he work hard? Absolutely.

But he's still a bad college QB. Sure look at his stats of almost 200 yards and a td and say, "See! He isn't that bad." That's great. The fact is he is Ponder-like bad.

I like the promise of the rest of the offense. I think they have some young talent at WR that could pan out and I think we'll be fine at RB over the next 4 years. Just need that final piece.

 

[Maximus]

Leidner is not a an average QB. He's really really bad.

3....2.....1.......

 

[Old Goph]

You can say Mitch was poor last night .

Just curious what he needed to do last night to go from poor in your view to so so. He threw for 49 fewer yards than the Heisman candidate, and led an offense that gained 108 fewer yards than the #2 team in the country. Or am I just confused on your rating scale? Do you have ratings other than good and poor?

 

[oleboy41]

Leidner is not a an average QB. He's really really bad. He can't throw it deep and he can't really throw it short. He can't run that fast and he can't read the playclock. Is he a good person? Probably. Does he work hard? Absolutely.

But he's still a bad college QB. Sure look at his stats of almost 200 yards and a td and say, "See! He isn't that bad." That's great. The fact is he is Ponder-like bad.

I like the promise of the rest of the offense. I think they have some young talent at WR that could pan out and I think we'll be fine at RB over the next 4 years. Just need that final piece.

You can make a logical argument that to this point Leidner has been below average and nobody can argue with it. However this isn't how you do it.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Leidner is not a an average QB. He's really really bad. He can't throw it deep and he can't really throw it short. He can't run that fast and he can't read the playclock. Is he a good person? Probably. Does he work hard? Absolutely.

But he's still a bad college QB. Sure look at his stats of almost 200 yards and a td and say, "See! He isn't that bad." That's great. The fact is he is Ponder-like bad.

I like the promise of the rest of the offense. I think they have some young talent at WR that could pan out and I think we'll be fine at RB over the next 4 years. Just need that final piece.

I've seen this from several people now. I thought he threw the ball just fine with the short passes last night. It's the deep balls that were bad, but he delivered some pretty good balls in the short passing game.

 

[killme]

When did these things happen? And you may be right but I don't recall. He threw some high and some low but again, so did Boykin. And often holding the ball long is the result of not having anyone open. The one time it was egregious was the goal line sack. My point though is that MOST of the criticism of Leidner isn't what you're describing. Its completely without context and hyperbolic

Man, I watched that play five times including the replays ESPN showed and I thought the sacker was practically there before Mitch. Two better throws he missed and one or two catches that weren't made and his line and perhaps the outcome are different. A tackle or block here or there, a couple of referee calls go the other way... That was the #2 team in the country, right?

 

[Rodney's Open]

You can make a logical argument that to this point Leidner has been below average and nobody can argue with it. However this isn't how you do it.

By providing facts from visual evidence that all of us have seen? Okay sure....

And providing an argument suggests that an argument can be made that he is a solid QB. That isn't possible.

 

[gopherdudepart2]

I'm not that down on Mitch Leidner, could he have played better yes but the whole team, especially the defense gave a pretty good effort yesterday. TCU left us some windows of opportunity to capitalize on but for whatever reason the Gophers were not able to do so, turnovers, mistakes some tough calls. Gophers offense as a whole needs to develop more play-makers including Mitch, although he is a junior I still consider him a developing player. I thought the Gophers played pretty damn hard and were giving maximum effort, including Campbells near interception. Impressed with the defenses effort, disappointing loss but encouraging that the defense cause some turnovers and played a lot of ball and continued to play well under duress.
Boykin made some plays out of those side arm throws and the kid has dynamic speed so he is tough to defend but I thought the Gophers played hard and were in good position to make stops. The one thing about last nights game that I could tell was off was the offensive line had a tough time getting a good rhythm going except when they were up tempo or hurry up mode.

Leidner might have had a touch down to KJ Maye if he was able to lead him a little more on that one first down throw, by putting just a little more arc on the ball, it was just to flat for Maye to keep running, but Maye made the catch.

Leidners inconsistency on some of his throws lies with his footwork, some of it is that some times he cuts off his follow through with his feet, instead of letting his lead foot and hand completely follow through some times he cuts it off, short steps and that results in a flat ball or uneven throw. Some times he does it just like you want some times he cuts off.
If there were one area he could improve upon I would say is finishing his throws. Wide receivers need to get stronger on the ball, the ball hits you in the hands you should most of the time be able to find a way to reel it in. Not every throw is going to be perfect.

Offense has some work to do to step up to the defenses class, right now the Gophers defense is far ahead of the offense in how play makers and players are developing. Time to beat Coloardo State next week, and move on. Go Gophers.

 

[bga1]

I've seen this from several people now. I thought he threw the ball just fine with the short passes last night. It's the deep balls that were bad, but he delivered some pretty good balls in the short passing game.

I'm not a football poster but I always watch the games. Leidner is not a BAD quarterback, but he is at best average, a bit of a statue in the pocket, a below average thrower and a better than average runner because he is so strong and tough. The problem is not how bad he is, but that he is average or below average on a very good football team. It sticks out like a sore thumb that this team could take a big step up with a better quarterback. In the past we have had similar quarterbacks leading below average to average teams and though fans complained, it was arguable that the gap between where we were and being great wasn't the quarterback. Now it's pretty clear.

 

[Mohawk72]

Obviously the Leidner and Williams fumbles killed the gophers last night. I think the unsettled issues of the O line hurt Leidner last night. The loss of Campion hurt and it was obvious that Lauer wasn't near 100 percent healthy. Hopefully they can get healthy offensively. Overall it was a good team effort last night. Hope they can healthy on the O line and get ready for the CSU Rams.

 

[oleboy41]

By providing facts from visual evidence that all of us have seen? Okay sure....

And providing an argument suggests that an argument can be made that he is a solid QB. That isn't possible.

You didn't really provide facts, just opinions. There were no numbers or comparisons. I've watched Mitch and think he throws a good deep ball. You say he can't throw short and I see inconsistency not incapability. If you want to provide actual facts that's great but you haven't yet

 

[Rodney's Open]

You didn't really provide facts, just opinions. There were no numbers or comparisons. I've watched Mitch and think he throws a good deep ball. You say he can't throw short and I see inconsistency not incapability. If you want to provide actual facts that's great but you haven't yet

You clearly haven't watched Mitch Leidner then. Those are the facts.