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[GoAUpher]

I agree that cases can be made for each school being attractive and I understand SOME of the recruiting advantages ASU or CO have (though again, we're the only D-1 game in town here). What I was saying is that I don't think it's clear cut that those are better jobs. And I'm frankly tired of reading on our own f'ing message board about what a crappy job we all think this is. It's a great job, at a great school, in a great metro area, in what I consider to be hands down the best athletic conference in college sports. That's my opinion, I just wish more "gopher fans" shared it.

I think many (including me) share this opinion. Unfortunately, the opinion of Gophers fans doesn't matter here. If you take an honest look, you can see plenty of things that a potential coach might not like. Recognizing that others may not see what we do isn't hating on the program. Like I said, if the things we love and profess as strengths of the school exist, then it's up to the U to sell them to potential hires.

 

[Seniorsmoke]

You keep beating this drum. (Also, you keep insinuating that a real "Gopher fan" would blindly think that this is the greatest job ever, which I, for one, don't appreciate.)

Unfortunately for your case, everything you're referencing is all on the basis of potential, not reality. "Only D-I school in the state, great school, great metro area, playing in a premier athletic conference" all mean absolutely nothing if you can't leverage them to your advantage. The U is going on 43 years and counting of failing to do so.

If I were an up-and-coming non-BCS coach looking to move to an auto-bid school, Minnesota would be one of my last choices (money being equal). At worst, I would place it ahead of Duke, Washington St., Indiana, and Vanderbilt. At best, you could also argue places like Mississippi St., Baylor, and UConn. What this means is that at least 80-85% of BCS jobs that come open are better than Minnesota, not to mention a handful of non-BCS jobs. And this is coming from the perspective of someone who is extremely biased toward the University of Minnesota.

Winning at Minnesota is very difficult. We have the perception of being above the Arctic Circle, haven't won anything in over 4 decades, have a below average-to-poor local recruiting base, pay terrible salaries historically, and are a doormat in what is, at worst, the 2nd-best football conference in the country. The teams that are, at least theoretically, our equals have treated us like red-headed stepchildren over the past few years. We do have an awesome brand-new stadium, and (allegedly) a renewed commitment to football, but those things don't erase everything that's happened since 1967. I can't blame any coach who is in-demand for holding out for a better job.

For all of these reasons, I will be shocked if the University is able to hire anyone that was actually wanted by other schools. Unless, of course, they pay him far more than what he's worth. (Which, for the record, I am in favor of.)

As a complete Gopher rube, I am in 100% agreement with you. It is a very realistic look at where the program is, not where we all might think/hope it will be.

 

[RodentRampage]

Lots of folks drinking the 'Minnesota is the greatest' kool-aid. I think the reality is closer to what dpodoll68 posted. Once you leave the state, you find perceptions of Minnesota (climate/culture/diversity/etc) are far different than what many of the insulated fans believe.

That's the opposite of the truth. The problem this state has is excessive humility. Minnesotans would never dream of going around with "I heart MN" t-shirts. Minnesotans don't write songs about Minnesota. Way too humble for that.

 

[scools12]

Hard for many to admit on this board but the reality is Colordao and ASU are both better jobs than Minnesota. Doesn't mean the Minnesota can't be a great job for the right guy it just means in the overall scheme of things the other 2 are better.

 

[ruralgopher]

This is like arguing whether John Deere or Case IH is better. Outside of the top ~20 jobs in the nation jobs are pretty similar. MN is a great job based on tons of factors including conference affiliation, reported money available, future potential, etc. CO and ASU are great jobs too. Outside of the true blue bloods, people are just splitting hairs trying to give one big time program an edge over another.

 

[monk10]

That's the opposite of the truth. The problem this state has is excessive humility. Minnesotans would never dream of going around with "I heart MN" t-shirts. Minnesotans don't write songs about Minnesota. Way too humble for that.

A bit too much semantics. Minnesotans feel like they are better then that to do that, not that they don't think it. Just because they are passive aggressive doesn't mean they don't drink up the Kool-Aid.

 

[60's Guy]

"Doogie, first of all, thanks for all the information you have provided us with throughout the search process. For whatever reason people have to be critical, no matter what."

I look forward to your insights Doogie. Thank you for the information and opinions.

 

[RodentRampage]

A bit too much semantics. Minnesotans feel like they are better then that to do that, not that they don't think it. Just because they are passive aggressive doesn't mean they don't drink up the Kool-Aid.

It's not Kool-Aid. It's just that Minnesotans are expected to drink the sewer water, and when they won't drink it, people keep going on about drinking the Kool-Aid.

And people keep using the term passive-aggressive, without really understanding it:

"Passive–aggressive behavior, a personality trait, is passive, sometimes obstructionist resistance to following through with expectations in interpersonal or occupational situations. It is a personality trait marked by a pervasive pattern of negative attitudes and passive, usually disavowed resistance in interpersonal or occupational situations.

It can manifest itself as learned helplessness, procrastination, stubbornness, resentment, sullenness, or deliberate/repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one is (often explicitly) responsible."

 

[Tricks]

Colorado's AD said he'd be suprised if the could pay a new HC more than 2 million+. It sounds like we may have a slight advantage as far as what we are willing to pay so that's nice to hear.

 

[misplaced cornerback]

Colorado's AD said he'd be suprised if the could pay a new HC more than 2 million+. It sounds like we may have a slight advantage as far as what we are willing to pay so that's nice to hear.

More important numbers: $73,599,999 vs. $49,529,482. That is the athletic dept revenue of the two schools. Minnesota revenue is much greater and gaining.

 

[Rosemountian]

I prefer Calhoun... but would be fine with Sumlin... just being realistic... too many people have said that Harbaugh, Petersen, Patterson, & Mullen are unrealistic... so, Sumlin is among a few I like in that next bunch.

That makes sense then. I can't see giving a 2nd year head coach 21 million dollars over 8 years plus incentives and also a say in who the next AD might be. That is the only thing. If they end up with a guy like Sumlin, they would end up paying more the market value for a Sumlin, not top 15 money. But the fact that they are willing to pay someone that much would indicate if they are only ending up paying a little under 2 for a coach, they may be able to bring in some high priced coordinators. Which I would also see as a positive.

 

[monk10]

It's not Kool-Aid. It's just that Minnesotans are expected to drink the sewer water, and when they won't drink it, people keep going on about drinking the Kool-Aid.

And people keep using the term passive-aggressive, without really understanding it:

"Passive–aggressive behavior, a personality trait, is passive, sometimes obstructionist resistance to following through with expectations in interpersonal or occupational situations. It is a personality trait marked by a pervasive pattern of negative attitudes and passive, usually disavowed resistance in interpersonal or occupational situations.

It can manifest itself as learned helplessness, procrastination, stubbornness, resentment, sullenness, or deliberate/repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one is (often explicitly) responsible."

I'm not sure by reading that text book definition that I used it incorrectly. My understanding of Minnesota state culture is that they look down on other places to live. (Stubbornness / resentment of other places). This comes out by comments like " Minnesotans would never dream of going around with "I heart MN" t-shirts. Minnesotans don't write songs about Minnesota. Way too humble for that." (I'm reading this quote as having pride of where you live is not being humble and therefore incorrect) Minnesotans are unable to effectively market Minnesota as a good place to live as they are stuck in their helplessness in a sense of pride for their "humbleness".

Currently Minnesota is being sold to a variety of potential coaches. The fact that the culture is unable to create an environment that the U is a great place to coach at leads into a failure into the ability to accomplish the task of getting a top notch coach here.

Maybe you see it differently?

 

[oak_street1981]

Just as much of a shock it may be that most people south of I-80 dont care much for hockey.[/QUOTE]

Hell, most people north of I-80 don't care that much about hockey either.

Hockey draws a small and very loyal fan base and is nothing like the other sports. Around MN people will start to follow a championship level hockey team, otherwise they do not think twice about hockey. The Wild fan base, in my experience is a fanbase unlike any other. It is very insulated, very family and suburban oriented, with some serious corporate suite support thrown in.

The Timberwolf Garnett era Western Conference Finals fanbase, or the Gopher Basketball fanbase are very different from the hockey base.

The die hards and those with youth hockey ties are very loyal and spend enormous amounts of money on hockey.

 

[60's Guy]

Excellent

More important numbers: $73,599,999 vs. $49,529,482. That is the athletic dept revenue of the two schools. Minnesota revenue is much greater and gaining.

That has to matter. Plus all the Fortune 500 companies here.

 

[Doogie]

I specifically remember Doogie ripping Brewster. Doogie said there was no reason Mn couldn't win like IA and WI. Now he comes with this "insight" from a source that the MN job is worse than say CO or ASU because it is hard to win. I have always said this is a difficult place to win. It seems maybe since Brewster is gone, he thinks the same now.

As far as the stuff posted on here about potential candidates, I never believed any of it. Like I said, Joe S. and Doogie were throwing out names even before the U hired the go between. The last thing the U is going to do is hire a coach quickly and without looking at all candidates. If you want to throw around names, that is one thing, but to act like it is some credible information, well, it just hasn't been. This is just mu opinion. Sorry if it ruffles feathers. I don't follow Doogie around and have not been a dark cloud over anything else he has posted on here.

I, personally, do believe the resources are in place to win here... many who know way more than I do wonder about that... although expectations are so low here (beat Iowa or Wis. next year and you are a rock-star) that it's not a bad job... and just because Col. & ASU are more highly thought of doesn't make this a bad job.

 

[RodentRampage]

I'm not sure by reading that text book definition that I used it incorrectly. My understanding of Minnesota state culture is that they look down on other places to live. (Stubbornness / resentment of other places). This comes out by comments like " Minnesotans would never dream of going around with "I heart MN" t-shirts. Minnesotans don't write songs about Minnesota. Way too humble for that." (I'm reading this quote as having pride of where you live is not being humble and therefore incorrect) Minnesotans are unable to effectively market Minnesota as a good place to live as they are stuck in their helplessness in a sense of pride for their "humbleness".

I've never observed Minnesotans to look down on other places to live, at least no more than people in any other state do. The thing is that as soon as Minnesotans express any pride in their state, someone will be there to wave a finger in their face saying "You're looking down on other places." If I thought that some other state was a better place to live, then I would live there.

My comments regarding the lack of "I heart MN" T-shirts and songs about Minnesota wasn't to brag about humility. It was in response to claims that Minnesotans are arrogant for thinking their state is a good place to live. I was offering counter-examples. If we were so prideful about our state, surely we would be the ones with "I heart MN" t-shirts.

The thing about Minnesota is that when someone wants to run some smack against the state (that's all it really is, smack), instead of putting the smack talker in his place, like most people would do, Minnesotans just roll over and take it.

I don't agree at all that Minnesotans are prideful about humility. There is excessive humility which makes marketing the state harder.

 

[monk10]

I've never observed Minnesotans to look down on other places to live, at least no more than people in any other state do. The thing is that as soon as Minnesotans express any pride in their state, someone will be there to wave a finger in their face saying "You're looking down on other places." If I thought that some other state was a better place to live, then I would live there.

I've lived any many places and I've enjoyed them differently. I currently like where I'm living and would like an opportunity to try to live somewhere else, when the right opportunity presents itself. This bold quote implies to me that you think MN is the best place to live, since you live here. However the whole paragraph is hard for me to put together. My translation is that you think MN have no more and no less of a sense of pride in their state then any other. However, MN makes sure to police each other to make sure that you don't actually state that you have pride in your state. And then you conclude that you think if there was a better place you'd move there. Maybe you can help me understand how you don't think that represents itself has passive aggressive behavior toward state pride?

My comments regarding the lack of "I heart MN" T-shirts and songs about Minnesota wasn't to brag about humility. It was in response to claims that Minnesotans are arrogant for thinking their state is a good place to live. I was offering counter-examples. If we were so prideful about our state, surely we would be the ones with "I heart MN" t-shirts.

This is the part where I feel like I'm using the passive aggressive definition correctly. The lack of ability to admit that you think this place is great is inhibiting the selling the state as a great place to live.

The thing about Minnesota is that when someone wants to run some smack against the state (that's all it really is, smack), instead of putting the smack talker in his place, like most people would do, Minnesotans just roll over and take it.

I agree that MN will not openly combat the perceptions about the state. And therefore this allows the perceptions to become reality. Which again leads me to my point of leaving it in a state of helplessness. The perception wins.

I don't agree at all that Minnesotans are prideful about humility. There is excessive humility which makes marketing the state harder.

I feel that the Brewster rah rah that MN is great was a huge turn off to the common MN person. The idea is you shut up and do your job and don't talk much. I thought that is the concern of the Maturi comment about being familiar with MN.

Again the point of the multiple quotes is I'm trying to understand how I didn't use the term passive aggressive correctly. What part am I missing?

 

[stevedave23]

It sounds like I might be in the minority here but I think paying Kevin Sumlin $2.6M/yr for 8 years is ludicrous. The man is in his third year of head coaching...at HOUSTON!!

I firmly believe the U has to look at potential hires in terms of risk. The U can't look at potential hires in terms of who they "think" will work here. Sumlin strikes me as a "hot name" rather than an established coach. IMHO three years of coaching at a smaller school is riskier than some would like to admit.

 

[Rosemountian]

It sounds like I might be in the minority here but I think paying Kevin Sumlin $2.6M/yr for 8 years is ludicrous. The man is in his third year of head coaching...at HOUSTON!!

I firmly believe the U has to look at potential hires in terms of risk. The U can't look at potential hires in terms of who they "think" will work here. Sumlin strikes me as a "hot name" rather than an established coach. IMHO three years of coaching at a smaller school is riskier than some would like to admit.

There was never a report that they were willing to pay Sumlin 2.8 for 8 years. There was a report that they were willing to spend 2.6 for 8 years. That doesn't necessarily mean they will spend that much on Sumlin. I imagine they could get sumlin for less if he ends up being the guy they want.

 

[MaxyJR1]

It sounds like I might be in the minority here but I think paying Kevin Sumlin $2.6M/yr for 8 years is ludicrous. The man is in his third year of head coaching...at HOUSTON!!

I firmly believe the U has to look at potential hires in terms of risk. The U can't look at potential hires in terms of who they "think" will work here. Sumlin strikes me as a "hot name" rather than an established coach. IMHO three years of coaching at a smaller school is riskier than some would like to admit.

I think that is reserved for the "Tubby Smith" Hire. Sumlin will not get over 1.75 per year.

 

[Seniorsmoke]

It sounds like I might be in the minority here but I think paying Kevin Sumlin $2.6M/yr for 8 years is ludicrous. The man is in his third year of head coaching...at HOUSTON!!

I firmly believe the U has to look at potential hires in terms of risk. The U can't look at potential hires in terms of who they "think" will work here. Sumlin strikes me as a "hot name" rather than an established coach. IMHO three years of coaching at a smaller school is riskier than some would like to admit.

Paying anyone that much money not named Patterson or Petersen would be done without merit. I believe the point was what this person heard the U was willing to offer up to, not neccessarily to Sumlin.

 

[stevedave23]

Ok, I was meshing the two together. Doogie mentioned the salaries and then started talking about Sumlin. Either way, I'm still not very high on Sumlin. If we're looking for an established coach and an established name (as the U says) I don't think Sumlin is the guy.

 

[calminnfan]

8 year, 2.6 million is numbers which apply more toward a coach with a solid resume and experience. They are sharing that through Doogie for the fans sake IMO to let the fans have some comfort they are trying to get a legitimate, experienced HC.

PS. I suspect they are going for someone with a better track record then Sumlin (no disrespect to Sumlin intended since other then the board I know nothing about him).

One more edit , it would do the UofM well to consider that though this may be where the market is today for an above average coach, it may not be there tomorrow. They might take a lesson from the Vikes signing Hutch a few years back. The contract was over the top at the time, but one or two years later, it was right in line.

 

[RodentRampage]

There is a difference between the sentences "If I thought that some other state was a better place to live, then I would live there." and "If some other state was a better place to live, then I would live there." You are reacting as if I had said the second statement, which is quite different than the one that I made.

But even if I had made the second statement and claimed that this was the best place to live, what is so condemnable about that? Why is it that only Minnesotans seem to be condemned for such attitutes, when they are taken for granted in other states. No one objects to a New Yorker thinking NYC is the best. I just get sick of Minnesotans being bashed as smug or arrogant for having some pride.

Passive-aggressive behavior is a personality disorder. It's not just indirectness and aversion to conflict. Let's go back to the definition: "Passive–aggressive behavior, a personality trait, is passive, sometimes obstructionist resistance to following through with expectations in interpersonal or occupational situations."

 

[GoAUpher]

No one objects to a New Yorker thinking NYC is the best. I just get sick of Minnesotans being bashed as smug or arrogant for having some pride.

I get the sentiment and I agree, but its not hard to find people outside of NYC, Chicago, LA, etc who make fun of the folks in those cities who spend their time proclaiming their city's dominance. You just see less of it in mass media since those are major TV markets.

 

[wait!what?]

the more I read this thread the more I want to say 'just hire Weis.'

 

[RodentRampage]

I get the sentiment and I agree, but its not hard to find people outside of NYC, Chicago, LA, etc who make fun of the folks in those cities who spend their time proclaiming their city's dominance. You just see less of it in mass media since those are major TV markets.

Of course. Because they all know that their OWN state or city is the best. Minnesota seems to be the only place where when people start taking smack, they cave.

 

[ShushPush]

Human Capital

Yes... that was my comeback... and obviously, all isn't exactly equal... but with Nebraska joining the Big Ten, it'll be that much tougher to win starting next year... it was this person's belief, and he said many of peers feel the same way, that AZ St. and Col. are better mostly because it's easier to win in both spots. If Washington St. opens, that's a diff. story.

I think they are speaking in terms of ability to coach up the existing talent. Minnesota will be low on defense and lower on offense than they currently are. We are building from ground zero. The only reason those schools are more attractive is there will be fewer L's in the balance. Next year, no matter who coaches, the team depth and experience will continue to be rather low in terms of total games played per position. Demographically, the team is young and will continue to be for a few years. The cupboard isn't bare but the skill positions are looking unproven or uncapable. Personnel will be changed but the process of doing so will take more time to instill the changes necessary to begin winning consistently.

The next coach needs to build more than just the team, but also the high schools, the University's connection to the team, and the general fan base. The magnitude of the job makes it look like a mount Everest climb. The good news it is more like the Mustang mountains.

 

[monk10]

There is a difference between the sentences "If I thought that some other state was a better place to live, then I would live there." and "If some other state was a better place to live, then I would live there." You are reacting as if I had said the second statement, which is quite different than the one that I made.

But even if I had made the second statement and claimed that this was the best place to live, what is so condemnable about that? Why is it that only Minnesotans seem to be condemned for such attitutes, when they are taken for granted in other states. No one objects to a New Yorker thinking NYC is the best. I just get sick of Minnesotans being bashed as smug or arrogant for having some pride.

Passive-aggressive behavior is a personality disorder. It's not just indirectness and aversion to conflict. Let's go back to the definition: "Passive–aggressive behavior, a personality trait, is passive, sometimes obstructionist resistance to following through with expectations in interpersonal or occupational situations."

I'm not sure why this conversation is turning so defensive about whether you should or shouldn't say whether you like the state of MN. I'm trying to understand why not saying it when you believe it doesn't align with your definition. The expectation in this type of conversation would for you to state what you think, however, through a personality disorder a person is unable to do it, or from some other person's disorder they are knocking you for saying it, and you choose not to, to fit in with the culture?

 

[Ole]

I think they are speaking in terms of ability to coach up the existing talent. Minnesota will be low on defense and lower on offense than they currently are. We are building from ground zero. The only reason those schools are more attractive is there will be fewer L's in the balance. Next year, no matter who coaches, the team depth and experience will continue to be rather low in terms of total games played per position. Demographically, the team is young and will continue to be for a few years. The cupboard isn't bare but the skill positions are looking unproven or uncapable. Personnel will be changed but the process of doing so will take more time to instill the changes necessary to begin winning consistently.

The next coach needs to build more than just the team, but also the high schools, the University's connection to the team, and the general fan base. The magnitude of the job makes it look like a mount Everest climb. The good news it is more like the Mustang mountains.

We have a legit #1 receiver, a legit pass catching TE, a dangerous athlete in Gray who can be utilized in much better ways than he has been so far in his career, the rest of the O is below average, but we'll also have 2 senior backs and a handful of experienced linemen, their quality can be debated, but they will certainly not be green.
On D, Rallis, Edwards, Kirksey and Tinsley appear to belong, they're not elite, but they certainly are servicable with the potential to become much better. Athletes like Cooper, Carter, Hageman, Manuel, and Wilhite simply need to be used properly or taught better techniques, none of those players are bums athletically, they just have no clue what they are doing on the field half the time. Who know whether Beal will be as good as hyped.

We have pieces here, they might not fit together or have solid technique, but they are here.
Now we need a coach that can use them.