Joey King: Is he a liability on the court?

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fryguy22 said:
Completely agree with the last few posts. How is he a "liability"? He is clearly a good option at PF relative to what else we could do, he is a HUGE asset as a starter for us. He's been dependable. Even when he makes a mistake, he's hustling and working hard (someone already mentioned his missed bunny followed by hustling back and breaking up an oop, that was a critical defensive play for us). He also almost won us the game @ Purdue.
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I agree on the sentiment, but relative circumstance shouldn't be considered when discussing liabilities during a game. A fairer title might be "is PF a liability for this team"... And I think we have beaten that horse to death :)

Joey works hard, and I'm frustrated with his decision making at times, but I think we can all agree that he provides a lot of hustle. I think his mistakes have been magnified by the small margin of error that has been present in most games this season, especially now that the post season is almost here. I think (if we make the tournament, knock on wood) that we remember his contributions to this team fondly in two years.




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tinyarch said:
I don't like the title to the thread. Joey may not have a 5 star skill set, but he's the best alternative that we have at this present time. That being the case, Joey King is an asset on the court because we'd really be in tough shape if he wasn't here at Minnesota right now. He is giving us everything that he's got. I can't ask for more.

Will he get better? I expect that he will and I expect that he will always be an asset for the Gophers.
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Thank you to you and the others objecting to this. You beat me to the thought, but I was going to put that considering the alternative, he certainly isn't. I'm glad we have him, and next year I will be even more glad. I really believe that an off season of working on his skills and being in the weight room will develop him into a very effective player for us. IMO, I just don't think that any young giant men from Africa are going to show up to play for us after experiencing this winter here during a visit. Also, hope I'm wrong but Josh Martin isn't just going to come into town and save us at forward despite his gaudy high school stats. For someone most people haven't seen play it seems a bit early to presume that, YouTube highlights notwithstanding. He's a freshman and I expect him to struggle and just hope folks don't turn on him because of it.

Some people can be relentless on basically kids who commit to the Gophers but fail to produce according to some fans' expectations: Weber, Nelson, Mav, Oto, Willis, Joey, Mo, Elliot etc. I've caught myself doing it with Ralph III. The "This isn't junior high anymore" or "What the hell, they're on scholarship" excuses are pretty pathetic given the level of vitriol in the comments. Also, given that the people ripping them are anonymous and wouldn't say that to them in person. Players read these comments as do their parents.
 

He is still learning the game at this level and needs to develop skills. Love his hustle. Hate his present skill level. Could not, myself, accurately predict his up side potential.
 

underground629 said:
But Joey is 3rd on the team in ORtg and basically tied for 2nd in eFG% during conference play!!!! Gopher Warrior, help me out.

Honestly though, I think Joey gets too much crap on here. Yeah, he's not starter-caliber in the BT, but he wasn't brought in to be. .
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Agreed, although he does aggravate me on occasion (hesitancy when he has an open shot, defensive lapses, frequent lack of aggressiveness on rebounds). I also think he is playing out of position. He looks to be a natural small forward (albeit a backup at the Big Ten level) and lacks the size, brawn, and ruggedness for the 4. He's OK shooting the three, taking a midrange shot after a step and dribble, and shooting free throws. Between Josh Martin, Buggs, and maybe another recruit, perhaps he could move over to be a backup three next year.
 

SelectionSunday said:
Joey can be a contributor over the course of his Gopher career. Think a lot of us would agree that in a couple years when (presumably) Pitino has had enough time to upgrade the talent on the roster, ideally Joey would be an 8th man. He's being thrown into the fire this season because our current roster demands that. Yes, he struggles quite a bit vs. the talent in the Big Ten, but he's given the Gophers some good moments, too.
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Presumably as noted if the talent on the roster is upgraded Joey King will be a guy off the bench that will give the team solid minutes. Have to remember where he is currently at in his progress. Needs to get stronger over the next year and he well be a player that does those hustle / grinder type plays that are needed to win games.
 


Joey also has possibly the best pump fake in the BT. It's amazing how badly he gets people to bite on in considering he isn't a great shooter and really doesn't take that many outside shots other than wide open threes.
 

Joey has good offensive talent....

underground629 said:
Joey also has possibly the best pump fake in the BT. It's amazing how badly he gets people to bite on in considering he isn't a great shooter and really doesn't take that many outside shots other than wide open threes.
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His stats are amazingly similar to what they were last year at Drake. His 3 pt. percentage is lagging a bit behind last year, but if rich took the chains off a little, I'm sure he would improve from his current mark. He can be a real "glue" for this team over the next couple years, because he is coachable, and you do have to guard him.
He will improve, you don't have to worry about that.
 

My original post was a question, nothing more. I asked for thoughts and feedback from the forum. I don't disagree that he is inexperienced, probably playing outside of his natural position for a B1G player. Obviously his hustle is to be admired. I guess the thing that frustrates me is the mistakes he makes during tight ball games, as other people including myself pointed out. I guess I should expect this from a young and new player who has had to be thrown in the starting lineup due to circumstance.
 

I didn't read this thread, and didn't plan on it because I was hoping it would die to the bottom of the forum. But if you follow my posting at all, I absolutely abhor the constant ragging on of our PF position. And 20 minutes from Charles Buggs I guess will get everyone back into the mood of ragging on a guy that is playing well above his head right now. Typical blind fandom rather than actually viewing the team as what they are, extremely flawed.

If anyone is ragging on Joey's effort, go to hell, if they are ragging on his desire, go to hell, if you think he's intentionally making some of these mistakes, you're a terrible person.

Bottom line, we'll all be sad to see Joey leave the program in 2 short years. I can guarantee you that. He'll be remembered as the first Minnesotan on the team, someone who bled Maroon and Gold and someone we all liked as an athlete at our University. If his role diminishes year over year, I can almost guarantee you he isn't going to be a cancer.

Joey is more of a reason for our over achieving than the guy holding us back taking all things into consideration.

/rant
 



I like it that I can be cussing him out one moment then he's right back hustling to make a good play. You need scrappers like that on a team, just so he's not touching the ball on every possession.
 

underground629 said:
Joey also has possibly the best pump fake in the BT. It's amazing how badly he gets people to bite on in considering he isn't a great shooter and really doesn't take that many outside shots other than wide open threes.
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Yep. Imagine if he improves to the point where he can utilize that pump fake to drive in a couple of feet and find a wide open teammate by the hoop. Right now he pump fakes and passes all from the same spot.
 

Is he a quality B1G PF at this time? Absolutely not. Does he work hard? Yes.

When a player is in a position, making smart plays, and working hard, it is tough to fault him for not being good enough. Also, current coach didn't have much time to find someone, especially when Buckles was denied. I think the real blame for our PF lies with the guy who left he cupboard bare at the position except for Oto "best shooter since Hoffarber" Osenieks. I don't want to over-blame Tubby for things that go on this season, he left Pitino with a serviceable center in EE, and a few quality players in the back court with Hollinsanity. However, he left the PF spot totally empty, and it isn't King's fault that he was the best remaining option when Pitino got handed the wheel.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
Is he a quality B1G PF at this time? Absolutely not. Does he work hard? Yes.

When a player is in a position, making smart plays, and working hard, it is tough to fault him for not being good enough. Also, current coach didn't have much time to find someone, especially when Buckles was denied. I think the real blame for our PF lies with the guy who left he cupboard bare at the position except for Oto "best shooter since Hoffarber" Osenieks. I don't want to over-blame Tubby for things that go on this season, he left Pitino with a serviceable center in EE, and a few quality players in the back court with Hollinsanity. However, he left the PF spot totally empty, and it isn't King's fault that he was the best remaining option when Pitino got handed the wheel.
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Alex Foster is averaging a rebound every 4 or 5 minutes at Texas Tech.
 




No he's not a liability. He has limitations and needs to learn to play better team D and rebound better. He's a confident guy but at 6'7"-6'8" he doesn't have particularly long arms, isn't real athletic and isn't real strong. He's also not hitting the 3 real consistently either. He has nice post moves when he gets a favorable match up but he needs to get stronger and improve the J if he wants to become a valuable asset. He's a guy that should be playing about 12 mns a game off the bench bringing in some hustle and shooting at this point in his career.
 

howieramone said:
Alex Foster is averaging a rebound every 4 or 5 minutes at Texas Tech.
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I'm going to withold judgment on Foster until he has a larger sample size. As of right now, almost 1/4th of his career rebounds came in a single game against the team tied for last in the Southland Conference.
 


Maximus said:
And averaging a whopping 6.2 minutes per game on a 13-15 team.
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It certainly does pale in comparison to the 5.7 minutes Buggs is averaging per game, and that 70% of his points were scored in one game. IMHO Orlando did not leave the PF spot totally empty.
 

howieramone said:
It certainly does pale in comparison to the 5.7 minutes Buggs is averaging per game, and that 70% of his points were scored in one game. IMHO Orlando did not leave the PF spot totally empty.
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To expand upon that, a refrigerator isn't totally empty if there is spoiled food inside
 

howieramone said:
It certainly does pale in comparison to the 5.7 minutes Buggs is averaging per game, and that 70% of his points were scored in one game. IMHO Orlando did not leave the PF spot totally empty.
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So you were comfortable with the PF position leading into 2013-14 after the 2012-13 season finished?
 

Winasota Gopher said:
So you were comfortable with the PF position leading into 2013-14 after the 2012-13 season finished?
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I wasn't sure how much Not So Huge Mo's knee would allow him to play. I though Orlando would try to sign a F-C with his final scholarship.
 


howieramone said:
It certainly does pale in comparison to the 5.7 minutes Buggs is averaging per game, and that 70% of his points were scored in one game. IMHO Orlando did not leave the PF spot totally empty.
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Well not literally we have guys on the roster that we physically put at the four
 


howieramone said:
I'm pretty sure literally we haven't put Alex Foster at the four yet.
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He has 6 points and 5 rebounds in 8 games since 1/28, including a DNP last game. Not sure he's a difference maker this year, Howie. Maybe in the future he will be great, but not this year. And that's what we're talking about here.
 

As long as our GH experts think he is a liability on the court, he is.
 

GopherJake said:
He has 6 points and 5 rebounds in 8 games since 1/28, including a DNP last game. Not sure he's a difference maker this year, Howie. Maybe in the future he will be great, but not this year. And that's what we're talking about here.
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Jake, what I responded to was he left the PF spot totally empty. To change to a more pleasant subject, as we sit, we're not in a much better position at the 3 for next season. You may get your chance to coach our favorite team to 9th place yet.
 

Is Joey a liability on the court? Well lets see. He plays as hard as anyone. Usually guards 4s that are bigger and faster but have never seen him hang his head. Instead he defends and rebounds and does whatever is asked of him because we are thin at that position. He can hit the open shot and is decent from the line. I think he knows his strengths and mostly plays within his own limitations. He may make a bad decision on occasion but kids do that from time to time. Plus I doubt if Coach Pitino would start him or play him at all if he thought he was a liability. So in my opinion he is not a liability and frankly the title of this thread is ridiculous.
 


howieramone said:
Jake, what I responded to was he left the PF spot totally empty. To change to a more pleasant subject, as we sit, we're not in a much better position at the 3 for next season. You may get your chance to coach our favorite team to 9th place yet.
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True, not totally empty. Damn lucky Rich Pit brought in Joey King. And if it weren't for the constantly head scratching rulings by the NCAA, he and Buckles would have filled up the remaining 99%. And you're right, Pitino probably has no plan for PF next year either. I sure wish Alex Foster was here to completely change things with his 0.75 pts and 0.62 rebounds per game.

I don't give you enough credit for how sound your logic is.
 

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