Its early--- Tubby vs Pitino

[MinneStoa]

What the hell is your problem? Stop following me around and responding to all of my posts, you psychopath.

"Something, something, something; I'm above name-calling, something, something".

 

[Gopherguy0723]

What the hell is your problem? Stop following me around and responding to all of my posts, you psychopath.

Don't flatter yourself (it's hard for you not to, I know). I read many threads on the football and basketball forums, just as many people here do. If I responded to you in multiple threads, that's purely a coincidence. Now, continue defending Tubby until then end.

 

[MinneStoa]

As I stated , it will be easier to find and recruit talented athletes that fit his style in Texas than Minnesota.

Why do you say this? Is it because you think there are generally better athletes in Texas? If so I'm curious as to how you came to this conclusion.

Or is it because Texas has a larger population and therefore a larger recruiting base? If so, you have to admit that TTU is at least 4th on the Texas recruiting totem pole below UT, Baylor, and A&M. Do you think the larger population base could mitigate that natural roadblock?

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Defections, defections, defections. Are you happy now?

If the defections all happened under Tubby, shouldn't we hold Tubby accountable for those defections? Aren't you making the point of the Tubby detractors by bringing up defections, or are you an apologist that thinks Tubby had nothing to do with those defections and place all the blame on the players? Perhaps some were because of Tubby and some were legitimate family reasons like with Paul Carter. In any event, we had so many defections that it is very likely Tubby played a part in some of them.

 

[dpodoll68]

Don't flatter yourself (it's hard for you not to, I know). If I responded to you in multiple threads, that's purely a coincidence.

Whatever you say, Ms. Forrest.

Boil any bunnies lately?

Now, continue defending Tubby until then end.

Stop bashing the former coach for no reason. Why is it that it's ok for everyone to assassinate the man's reputation, but a cardinal sin to stand up for the coach who led the school to its best season in 23 years? I'd be happy to never talk about Tubby again. The next time you find me initiating a Tubby conversation will be the first. You and all of your Tubby-bashing buddies need to quit talking about Tubby, and then I'll stop defending him. It's really quite simple.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Whatever you say, Ms. Forrest.

Boil any bunnies lately?



Stop bashing the former coach for no reason. Why is it that it's ok for everyone to assassinate the man's reputation, but a cardinal sin to stand up for the coach who led the school to its best season in 23 years? I'd be happy to never talk about Tubby again. The next time you find me initiating a Tubby conversation will be the first. You and all of your Tubby-bashing buddies need to quit talking about Tubby, and then I'll stop defending him. It's really quite simple.

You're so presumptuous Dpod, but that isn't anything new. In fact, you've once again got it wrong, wow!

I have never started a conversation bashing Tubby, although I have contributed at times. I also don't believe he should be bashed incessantly, but the Tubby apologists aren't willing to take their medicine and admit he was only an average coach for us who couldn't elevate the program beyond the middle of the Big Ten on occasion. His constant bashing of the players through the media and negative reinforcement were also major problems that contributed to the negative vibe in the locker room and in the media.

I by no means believe Pitino is already a better coach or will work out better for the program in the end, although I hope he is and does. But if we're looking to elevate the program Tubby was not the guy to do it anymore. There's no reason Minnesota cannot finish in the top 3 or 4 in the Big Ten every few years in basketball. If striving for better is a problem for some people, then they need to reevaluate things. It is definitely possible to have too high of expectations, but expecting better results than what Tubby delivered is not unreasonable by any means.

The real problem is, you are personally offended by the Tubby bashing. You cannot restrain yourself because you are full of hubris and think you know better than everyone else, so you have assumed the mantle of Don Quixote in a quest to set the world straight. Don Dpod, you need to let it go and be more amiable. You say you don't care about such things, but the way you attack people says otherwise. You're very insecure.

 

[dpodoll68]

I have never started a conversation bashing Tubby

I never said you did.

although I have contributed at times

Many, many times.

I also don't believe he should be bashed incessantly

Your version of "I don't believe in beating women, but there should be a place you can take them to get it done."

he was only an average coach for us

Average by national standards? Sure. Average by Minnesota standards? Not even close.

who couldn't elevate the program beyond the middle of the Big Ten on occasion

Because we've had so many who could, right?

There's no reason Minnesota cannot finish in the top 3 or 4 in the Big Ten every few years in basketball.

No reason we can't, but we haven't and no indication exists to expect that we will anytime soon. People also want to focus on regular season finishes because they want to ignore and pretend that the Tournament berths and advancements didn't happen.

you are personally offended by the Tubby bashing

Damn straight. People blame everyone and everything for Minnesota's troubles, rather than just admitting that it's damn difficult to win big or consistently at Minnesota, and we haven't yet found a coach in the Tournament era who can do so without cheating.

you need to let it go and be more amiable

*I* need to let it go? You continue, again and again and again, to NOT get it. STOP TALKING ABOUT TUBBY. STOP STARTING THREADS ABOUT TUBBY. I have yet to start a conversation or a thread about Tubby. People keep claiming they want to look toward the future, but can't refrain from bringing up Tubby in virtually every single thread. STOP. It serves no purpose. If you really want to look toward the future, STOP TALKING ABOUT TUBBY.

You're very insecure.

Not at all. You're the expert in insecurity, Ms. Forrest. Try not responding to every post I make.

 

[Cayman]

I disagree with your contention that it was "suddenly." I also disagree with another posters contention that it was "bad luck" that caused things to go bad. We need to state that it was bad coaching that caused things to go bad. The preseason was mostly won by purely better athletes, but there were a number of us who recognized and saw the flaws in Tubby's scheme even in the preseason games. Once we got into the heart of the B1G season we lost because the schemes that Tubby drew up on offense were unsuccessful. Since the kids hadn't changed it can be surmised that the problems laid squarely on Tubby and his staff.

We also had suffered significant personnel losses either before or during the Big Ten season in multiple years, especially in 2010-11 when we had something like 7 scholarship players available for the final two thirds of the Big Ten schedule and our walk-ons were seeing minutes when the games were still in question. For the last few games of our 2012 NIT run, when we were playing very well other than the final against Stanford, we had 4 forwards sidelined with injuries. Ingram, Rodney, and Elliot were the only players we had who were over 6'4". Tubby had access to a full roster of players for less than half the time he was here.

The reason I don't hate Tubby is because he seemed to frequently have us on the verge of being really good, but something would almost always go wrong, and the window of opportunity would close on our fingers.

 

[mnsports1]

I loved Tubby, and I thought he did a great job for us, and was sabotaged by just plain bad luck often. The main differences I've seen between Pitino and Tubby are that Pitino has far more energy, and his team is more flexible in terms of sets, plays, and game styles. I like that. On the other hand, Tubby had more gravitas, and I think he had a greater store of respect from the parents and families of recruits, as witnessed by the fact that he had some great recruiting classes here (that didn't end up working out, for the ill luck reasons I mentioned earlier). Basically, Tubby was a legend, and we were lucky that he was able to build our program up after Monson dug us out of the Clem hole. Now, Richard's our coach, and I'm very much liking what we're seeing from him so far. Hopefully, he'll be able to carve out a career here that rivals what his dad and Tubby and Gillespie have crafted for themselves. But I see no reason why loving Pitino means diminishing what Tubby accomplished.

yep

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Because we've had so many who could, right?

As I mentioned earlier, every coach (besides Jim Molinari who only had part of a season as an interim coach) since the mid-seventies managed to get us a winning B1G record at least once.

I get that you liked Tubby, I get that you don't think he should have been fired. I also didn't think he should have been fired (actually, I thought he should have been fired after the 6-10 season, but I disagreed with firing him after going from an NIT team to a round of 32 team).

But you make it sound like no one in their right mind could have wanted to fire him, and I don't think that's fair. He never did get us a winning B1G season. I disagree with you that B1G record only matters if you win the conference. That would be like saying advancing rounds in the NCAA tournament only matters if you win the national championship. He was plagued by collapses both from a season perspective (going from 8th ranked in the country to 9th seeded in the conference tourney) and from a game perspective (too many painful late game collapses to mention, most recently handing away our BTT game which we were in a position to win). Those kind of let downs suck the life out of a fanbase.

As for tournaments, he had some strong showings in the BTT, I actually think he did a really good job in that regard (notwithstanding last season's Illinois collapse). We had a few fun runs and big wins in Indianapolis. With the NCAA tournament, taking us from not near a bubble team to making 3 of 6 NCAA tournaments while he was here was a strong accomplishment. I give him high marks for NCAA tournament berths. But, once he got there, we were 1-3 for a pretty dismal 25% winning percentage at the big dance.

 

[dpodoll68]

But you make it sound like no one in their right mind could have wanted to fire him, and I don't think that's fair.

I'm not saying it's completely mindless to fire him at the appropriate time. But, as you alluded to, it is utterly asinine to fire someone coming off their best season. "Good job, moving upward, best season yet - now here's your pink slip." I can't think of a single other team doing that, ever, at least not when it didn't involve massive violations and/or law-breaking. Can you?

 

[WanderingGopher]

>"rather than just admitting that it's damn difficult to win big or consistently at Minnesota, and we haven't yet found a coach in the Tournament era who can do so without cheating."

Why do you think that is, and what do you think the solution is? Do you think Tubby would've gotten us to the top if we had let him stay here another 5 years? How would he do that? Last 2 classes he brought in 3* players across the board (Buggs, Ellenson, Ellis, Foster) and he couldn't do it with prior teams that had multiple 4* players. He also had 3-4 years to recruit the Big 3, one of which could possibly have saved his job with an early commitment, and didn't get it done. I wanted Tubby to succeed here, but just find it fascinating that anyone with more than a passing interest in this team could argue we should've kept him longer.

 

[DeathClutch]

I'm not saying it's completely mindless to fire him at the appropriate time. But, as you alluded to, it is utterly asinine to fire someone coming off their best season. "Good job, moving upward, best season yet - now here's your pink slip." I can't think of a single other team doing that, ever, at least not when it didn't involve massive violations and/or law-breaking. Can you?

Tubby is no victim. He made top 15 money and didn't deliver, that's bottom line. He did some good things while he was here, but it was obvious it was time to move on.

 

[WanderingGopher]

Also, let's be honest about this "best season" business. We were close to the bubble and finished the year losing to two of the worst teams in the conference, we then choked away the conf tourney opener against a beatable team to remain on the bubble, we got into the tourney as one of the last teams in, we were fortunate to draw a team that had just lost its best player and was a shell of its former self (and was spiraling down so much that its coach was fired after we beat them) and -- hooray -- we played a good game and won ... then we lost by 20 to a good but not great team.

If you're calling this "Tubby's best season" that's a very strong indictment of the prior ones!!

 

[jumpstop]

Why do you say this? Is it because you think there are generally better athletes in Texas? If so I'm curious as to how you came to this conclusion.

Or is it because Texas has a larger population and therefore a larger recruiting base? If so, you have to admit that TTU is at least 4th on the Texas recruiting totem pole below UT, Baylor, and A&M. Do you think the larger population base could mitigate that natural roadblock?

There are more fast quick players in Texas suitable for full court pressure defense. Tubby will always be in play with most recruits because of his reputation and ability to connect with parents. He should've never been able to bring in the type of recruits he did in his first few seasons here, if not for these reasons. I believe he will do very well there because more good players will be available on a consisitent basis.

 

[dpodoll68]

Why do you think that is

We haven't found the right coach and given him enough time. Many would think 6 years is enough time, and I agree, but no one fires someone coming off their best season, as I've stated already. Find someone who has and I'll concede the point.

and what do you think the solution is

I don't know - I'm paid well below the level to make those sorts of decisions, but firing coaches coming off their best season and the school's best in 23 years can't help.

Do you think Tubby would've gotten us to the top if we had let him stay here another 5 years?

Probably not. I also don't think anyone else willing to come to MN would either. We haven't been to "the top" in 31 years - why would we reasonably expect to in the next 5? He had as good of a chance as anyone, in my opinion. As I've stated many times, there is a large segment of the Gopher basketball fanbase out of touch with reality when it comes to the historical and current performance/standing of the program.

Last 2 classes he brought in 3* players across the board (Buggs, Ellenson, Ellis, Foster) and he couldn't do it with prior teams that had multiple 4* players.

It's a good thing that teams never outperform their recruiting rankings.

He also had 3-4 years to recruit the Big 3, one of which could possibly have saved his job with an early commitment, and didn't get it done.

If we hire and fire coaches solely on the basis of recruiting, the athletic administration is even more messed up than I thought.

I wanted Tubby to succeed here, but just find it fascinating that anyone with more than a passing interest in this team could argue we should've kept him longer.

Some people look at history and the institution rather than taking the easy route and blaming the coach for everything that goes wrong. Unrealistic standards also don't help.

 

[mplarson7]

Also, let's be honest about this "best season" business. We were close to the bubble and finished the year losing to two of the worst teams in the conference, we then choked away the conf tourney opener against a beatable team to remain on the bubble, we got into the tourney as one of the last teams in, we were fortunate to draw a team that had just lost its best player and was a shell of its former self (and was spiraling down so much that its coach was fired after we beat them) and -- hooray -- we played a good game and won ... then we lost by 20 to a good but not great team.

If you're calling this "Tubby's best season" that's a very strong indictment of the prior ones!!

I told my dad when the NCAA draw came out that if we beat UCLA and Tubby came back for another year, Tubby should personally call the NCAA and thank them. That UCLA team was a train wreck waiting to happen.

Tubby won a lot of games here, this is true. We had some very good wins, but also some terrible terrible losses. Stagnant, standing around offense. I was sick of watching in-game meltdowns and the month of February....PTSD flashbacks. Anyone remember the Iowa game this year when we started the game up 21-5 and ended up losing by 20? That should never happen. The line changes that cost us the lead in nearly every game...ugh.

It wasn't working anymore. A change was needed.

 

[dpodoll68]

Also, let's be honest about this "best season" business. We were close to the bubble and finished the year losing to two of the worst teams in the conference, we then choked away the conf tourney opener against a beatable team to remain on the bubble, we got into the tourney as one of the last teams in, we were fortunate to draw a team that had just lost its best player and was a shell of its former self (and was spiraling down so much that its coach was fired after we beat them) and -- hooray -- we played a good game and won ... then we lost by 20 to a good but not great team.

It's funny to me that fans of a team go to such extraordinary lengths to rationalize and pretzel and twist away the best season in 23 years - all because they so hated the coach who dared to do it.

If you're calling this "Tubby's best season" that's a very strong indictment of the prior ones!!

That, and the 17 prior!

 

[Mulligan]

Not at all. You're the expert in insecurity, Ms. Forrest. Try not responding to every post I make.

Once again, during another of his pissing matches. Ah, the irony.

 

[dpodoll68]

Once again, during another of his pissing matches. Ah, the irony.

Yes, it is ironic how people keep wondering why I continue to defend Tubby when they are the ones starting the conversations by needlessly bringing him into conversation and bashing him for no reason. Ironic indeed. This is the Tubby Smith forum, right? One would think so based on the number of times people post/start threads about him.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Also, let's be honest about this "best season" business. We were close to the bubble and finished the year losing to two of the worst teams in the conference, we then choked away the conf tourney opener against a beatable team to remain on the bubble, we got into the tourney as one of the last teams in, we were fortunate to draw a team that had just lost its best player and was a shell of its former self (and was spiraling down so much that its coach was fired after we beat them) and -- hooray -- we played a good game and won ... then we lost by 20 to a good but not great team.

If you're calling this "Tubby's best season" that's a very strong indictment of the prior ones!!

I agree with the idea that last season was not a very impressive "best season". However, I don't like to take away anything from the tournament win because of the injury. I never gave Tubby a pass when we had injuries, so I sure as heck don't think its fair to mitigate a win because of another team's injury. We beat the team that was put in front of us.

 

[MinneStoa]

There are more fast quick players in Texas suitable for full court pressure defense.

You say this, but what stats or assumptions allow you to make that claim. How are Texan athletes any more likely to be faster than Minnesotan athletes?

 

[golfing18now]

dpodoll68 -- I'm curious why you continually characterize last year's team as the best result in 23 years? Is that based solely on the tournament result? Ultimately, I would agree that a team is based on its postseason performance. But performance against expectations certainly plays into how successful a team's result is characterized.

On another thread, we had a back and forth about what would qualify a team as a national title contender and your assertion was either a final four team or a one or two seed going into the tournament. Using that rationale, which I don't necessarily disagree with, you are acknowledging a team's regular season result in how you are evaluating a team's performance to date. Conversely, it seems like you are ignoring the build up (good or bad) to what transpired during the regular season if you are labeling last year as the most successful in 23 years.

While I would agree that many of the criticisms of Tubby go over the top and ignore the realities of where this program has been, it is hard to completely ignore what transpired during the last half of the season last year. By his own standards, he had better years here and elsewhere. Sometimes good coaches and good people get fired. I think, for better or worse, it was time for a change here.

 

[MinneStoa]

You like to keep reminding us about the success being the best that we had in the last 23 years. That is true. However, let's recall what the last 23 years included:
1) 3 seasons of Clem Haskins, including a winning B1G season which we never saw under Tubby
2) 6 vacated seasons
3) 7 seasons of Dan Monson which included 5 or 6 seasons of scholarship restrictions (not sure of the scholarship reduction running through 2004 means that it included the 04-05 season or not) and 2 winning B1G seasons
4) 1 season of Jim Molinari
5) 5 seasons of Tubby Smith

In sum, to say that Tubby's last year was our best in 23 years is accurate. However, Tubby Smith was also responsible for 5 of the previous 22 seasons you are comparing it to (5 of the 16 non-vacated seasons). If the best that this program can hope to do is tell me to feel lucky when we have a coach with a 25% winning percentage in NCAA tournament games and a 42.6% B1G winning percentage, because, hey, at least he is better than the previous 17 seasons (12 of which were either vacated, played under scholarship restrictions, or coached by an interim coach), then I need a new basketball team. I believe our program can do better than that, and I am excited to have Pitino here and hope he gets the job done.

While we are talking about Gopher basketball history, Tubby Smith was the first non-interim Gopher coach in the last 41 years to not post a winning record in a B1G regular season, and was the first non-interim Gopher coach without scholarship restrictions to fail to take us to the Sweet 16 in the last 37 years.

I agree that Tubby Smith takes too much hate and vitriol from some people on this board. However, to suggest that he was an indisputable pillar of success while he was here is also unfair.

This is a fantastic post that unfortunately got buried in all the name-calling and dick-measuring. Thanks, bleeds.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Tubby had a very good run here with his type of recruits but he could only bring so many here from out of state and there was a limited supply in state. Tubby had great talent here but having to sign spring recruits due to deflections and lack of consistent high level local talent have left this roster void of talent. This is a tough place to coach as Pitino will discover. As I stated , it will be easier to find and recruit talented athletes that fit his style in Texas than Minnesota. The point guard and power forward on Texas Tech appear to be players and when Tubby has something to work with he has proven to be successful. He should have realized that he could not sustain a high level program here for reasons stated above and left three or four years ago.

I supported Tubby for about as long as anyone here. I felt he did some good things including his recruiting overall.

I disagree that the roster was and is void of talent. Certainly had plenty of talent last year. Mbakwe was a man among boys. Austin Hollins will probably be a 2nd round draft pick and will certainly play at the next level. Andre Hollins has the chance to be a lottery pick. Tubby will never ever sign a more athletically gifted player than Rodney Williams. It may have not been a perfect roster for his system, but I don't think it has lacked talented or athletic players.

I also completely disagree that he couldn't have been successful at MN. There is plenty of local talent, but I really don't think that is that important. In basketball especially, players go all over the place. And yes, Texas has a lot more talent, but there also a lot more in-state competition for those players.

If anything he will have a harder time bringing in talent because of the lack of support. Seriously, the arena wasn't even 20% full last night. I know the opponent sucked but that was embarrassing.

 

[millions2spare]

This post was not about bashing Tubby. Tubby had enough "success" here in Minnesota to get himself fired. I for many, expect more as does NT. It is time the University of Minnesota
accepts the challenge to move into the upper echelon in sports and athletics. Tubby Smith and Joel Maturi would never be able to get Gopher basketball and the athletic department anything more than mediocre. The bar has been raised and Pitino will elevate the program. There is no doubt about that. Tubby was a good coach with a good reputation. Pitino is going to be a great coach and will develop his own brand, his own legacy, and create an enthusiasm for this program not seen since Bill Musselman. It is time we take an honest evaluation (albeit early) and get on the band wagon. This program WILL ROCK in 2015. be patient and enjoy the ride.....

You're so presumptuous Dpod, but that isn't anything new. In fact, you've once again got it wrong, wow!

I have never started a conversation bashing Tubby, although I have contributed at times. I also don't believe he should be bashed incessantly, but the Tubby apologists aren't willing to take their medicine and admit he was only an average coach for us who couldn't elevate the program beyond the middle of the Big Ten on occasion. His constant bashing of the players through the media and negative reinforcement were also major problems that contributed to the negative vibe in the locker room and in the media.

I by no means believe Pitino is already a better coach or will work out better for the program in the end, although I hope he is and does. But if we're looking to elevate the program Tubby was not the guy to do it anymore. There's no reason Minnesota cannot finish in the top 3 or 4 in the Big Ten every few years in basketball. If striving for better is a problem for some people, then they need to reevaluate things. It is definitely possible to have too high of expectations, but expecting better results than what Tubby delivered is not unreasonable by any means.

The real problem is, you are personally offended by the Tubby bashing. You cannot restrain yourself because you are full of hubris and think you know better than everyone else, so you have assumed the mantle of Don Quixote in a quest to set the world straight. Don Dpod, you need to let it go and be more amiable. You say you don't care about such things, but the way you attack people says otherwise. You're very insecure.

 

[Deleted_User]

Sir Richard was a nice hire at the right time to get a breath of fresh air. It is always impressive how impassioned we fans can be about the "glory days". Last I remember, the real glory days haven't been around since McHale, Thompson, etc. Then again, I may have forgotten to take my blinders off today.

 

[Angry]

I don't know - I'm paid well below the level to make those sorts of decisions, but firing coaches coming off their best season and the school's best in 23 years can't help.


1997 happened it wasn't just a wet dream. I was there I have a shirt to prove it!

 

[dpodoll68]

1997 happened it wasn't just a wet dream.

Not legitimately, it didn't.

I was there I have a shirt to prove it!

Dewey defeated Truman. It was in a newspaper, so it must've happened.

 

[Maximus]

Tubby Smith and Joel Maturi would never be able to get Gopher basketball and the athletic department anything more than mediocre

Curious, who do you think Teague should hire on the football side to make up for Joel's blunder?