Is Ra'Shede Hageman really playing poorly

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Seany

Seany

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Or is that just a perceptual thing, based upon last year when he seemed so overwhelming, as compared to this year, when it seems like (relatively) long stretches can go by where you rarely even hear his name mentioned?

I would guess it's more a matter of perception than anything else, as statistically speaking, he's far ahead of last year, being credited already for 6.5 tackles for losses in six games (and has had two blocked kicks), whereas in 13 games last season, he wound up with 7.5 TFL's, and this year with 23 total tackles in six games, while last year, 35 tackles in 13 games.

I think the biggest difference between this year and last would be the inability to get to the quarterback along with his ability to collapse the line, but how that more than anything might be related to the fact that everyone is aware of him now, and that he is such the disruptive player that opposing offensive offensive coordinators scheme around him now, double-teaming him either along the line or with the second tight-end or blocking back, and there is no one along the other side of our line whom can generate consistent (or even usually, adequate) pressure so as to soften up the doubling on Hageman, and therein in my opinion lies his lack of sacks along with the fact he has not been nearly the game-changing disruptive force he was last season, even though statistically, his numbers are better, and he has played very, very well as the blocking schemes against him have gotten that much more sophisticated and difficult for any one player to handle.

And I wonder how his season compares so far relative to his competition for the Chuck Bednarik Award, the Outland Trophy, the Bronko Nagurski Award and the Lombardi Trophy, all of which he's on the watch list for, and of course, very soon, the NFL.

He is so quick, and so strong, so I guess my question was entirely rhetorical, as he is certainly not playing poorly, however I would love to see him take that next step so as to develop the moves in order to blow up the double-teams in front of him, but that also requires a certain degree of help from his linemen beside him.
 

Hageman has looked excellent this year.
 

The Iowa game was a stinker for him. He was DT only twice from what I could see on the replay. Played better at Michigan.
 

I've asked the same question about Hageman's play and as a result find myself watching him a lot.

I think he's seeing even more double teams this year and while it sure doesn't feel like he's getting to the QB much, I'd be curious to see Thieran Cockran's (spelling?) numbers if there was an "ordinary" guy playing in the middle.

Plus, Hageman's impact in the middle has done a lot of things to help our relatively young LB's look serviceable through 6 games, IMO.
 

He is getting no help from the DE's so teams can key on him. There is only so much a DT can do when the DE play is subpar and they are not getting anywhere near the QB which has been the case in the first 2 Big Ten games.
 



He has also had a lot of near-misses on plays, which is sometimes just a matter of bad luck. Eventually, some of those will turn into sacks and TFLs. The biggest thing is that he is giving more consistent effort on every play (which is partly because the d-line rotation keeps him fresh). He is almost always getting excellent push up the middle.
 

Ra'shede has 6.5 TFLs, 23 total tackles, 3 passes broken up and 2 blocked FGs/extra points, for comparison's sake Notre dame's Louis Nix who by some is considered the Projected #1 NFL DT has 20 total tackles, 1 TFL, and zero other miscellaneous stats(forced fumbles, INTs, passes batted down, blocked FGs), ASU's Will Sutton only has 2.5 TFLs, 1 sack and 18 total tackles, FSU's Timmy Jernigan has 17 tackles, 3 TFLs, one of them being a sack, and LSU's Anthony Johnson has 5.5 TFLs, 2 of them being sacks and 24 total tackles,(he has played in all 7 games this year for LSU, all of the other guys have only played in six games including Ra'Shede)

Ra'Shede has better numbers then all of those guys i just listed who are his competition for the NFL draft, him being a first round pick and ideally an early first rounder would effectively nullify the possibility of us not making a bowl game for me, the biggest problem for Ra'shede is that he doesn't play on as many prime time nationally televised games as the other guys
 




He's really good. I think the thing about him is he lacks a consistent dynamic first step so he doesn't disrupt things the way some other guys do. He's pretty steady and looks to be playing well. I agree with others it would be nice to see how he'd do if the guys around him were a little better. Roland Johnson and Cameron Botticelli are pretty good, but they aren't really disruptive on the field either, so there's really no downside to double-teaming Hageman.
 

Last year Shede would take chunks of games off and disappear as well. Most of the stats he racked up were in the non-conference slate. There were some B1G games he wasn't mentioned at all.

So, that said, I'm not sure I understand the post. Shede is a freak of a human being who at times will look very average, probably due to a questionable motor (and limited supporting staff). He's still a fantastic college DT and NFL prospect, but this is hardly breaking news.
 

I dont think Shede is getting doubled as much as people think. yes at the beginning of the game he is but as the game goes on he sees less and less and occassionally gets a bump block but is mostly 1-1 most of the time. Shede tries to bull rush most of the time and that is the easiest attack to block against no matter how strong or fast you are.
I wish he would learn other techniques they seem to keep saying he is still learning the position...
 

Clearly I am in the minority here, but I think Rashede is overrated. Rashede got off to a great start against awful teams, just as he did last year. I think he ended up with one sack(?) during the Big Ten season last year? And he was terrible in the Iowa game (and didn't even play on one of Iowa's last scoring drives - if he is so dominant, how is that possible?), but yes, he did play better against Michigan.

For me, time will tell. I know he looks the part of a first round pick, but he has to produce like a first round pick against what is now legitimate competition if our D is going to get any better this year.
 



DL's Summary today:

9) Sid asked if Tracy was happy with Ra'Shede Hageman's play at defensive tackle: Claeys responded: "He's playing better . . . Not displeased with Ra'Shede at all . . . Playing better with pad level and against the run."
 

TCF=UnitedWeStand said:
Clearly I am in the minority here, but I think Rashede is overrated. Rashede got off to a great start against awful teams, just as he did last year. I think he ended up with one sack(?) during the Big Ten season last year? And he was terrible in the Iowa game (and didn't even play on one of Iowa's last scoring drives - if he is so dominant, how is that possible?), but yes, he did play better against Michigan.

For me, time will tell. I know he looks the part of a first round pick, but he has to produce like a first round pick against what is now legitimate competition if our D is going to get any better this year.
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Sacks are not the only way to determine effectiveness. I agree it would be nice to see him get to the QB more often, but I think part of that is the lack of effectiveness of our DE's. If Hageman is the only one making an push, then the QB can just step to the side because he has so much room.

I think he has played pretty well considering how badly the DE's have played.
 

Seany said:
Or is that just a perceptual thing, based upon last year when he seemed so overwhelming, as compared to this year, when it seems like (relatively) long stretches can go by where you rarely even hear his name mentioned?

I would guess it's more a matter of perception than anything else, as statistically speaking, he's far ahead of last year, being credited already for 6.5 tackles for losses in six games (and has had two blocked kicks), whereas in 13 games last season, he wound up with 7.5 TFL's, and this year with 23 total tackles in six games, while last year, 35 tackles in 13 games.

I think the biggest difference between this year and last would be the inability to get to the quarterback along with his ability to collapse the line, but how that more than anything might be related to the fact that everyone is aware of him now, and that he is such the disruptive player that opposing offensive offensive coordinators scheme around him now, double-teaming him either along the line or with the second tight-end or blocking back, and there is no one along the other side of our line whom can generate consistent (or even usually, adequate) pressure so as to soften up the doubling on Hageman, and therein in my opinion lies his lack of sacks along with the fact he has not been nearly the game-changing disruptive force he was last season, even though statistically, his numbers are better, and he has played very, very well as the blocking schemes against him have gotten that much more sophisticated and difficult for any one player to handle.

And I wonder how his season compares so far relative to his competition for the Chuck Bednarik Award, the Outland Trophy, the Bronko Nagurski Award and the Lombardi Trophy, all of which he's on the watch list for, and of course, very soon, the NFL.

He is so quick, and so strong, so I guess my question was entirely rhetorical, as he is certainly not playing poorly, however I would love to see him take that next step so as to develop the moves in order to blow up the double-teams in front of him, but that also requires a certain degree of help from his linemen beside him.
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I don't recall him being overwhelming at all last year. He played well in non-conference against physically outclassed opponents (as he did this year) but then faded against better competition. His technique is still sub-par & his motor is questionable. He's really not seeing that many double teams & imo you could argue Roland Johnson is a better DT. Obviously he's got loads of potential but as of right now I don't think any B1G OC's are having to game plan around Shede.
 

As you can see by watching clowney at South Carolina, it is pretty easy to gameplan against a d lineman,

And hageman isn't nearly as good as clowney,
And his supporting cast isn't nearly as good as south Carolina's.

He is still learning. He is a late round player with 1st round measurables. He will be drafted somewhere in the middle I would guess.
 

Not a scouting guru and don't pretend to be. But suggest you all search out a few professional scouting services. Seems unanimous that Hageman's raw athletic potential is what excites the scouts. They appear extraordinarily optimistic about his prospects. Most mention early to middle rounds with him likely improving that position when tested. Very few negative comments about current year performance, but a fair amount of technical items relating to NFL play mentioned that need work. Perhaps the pros wait it out a bit longer than we do before drawing conclusions? Looks like it's all there for him if he can grab it, though.
 

sacks tend to mostly come from DE not DT, a DT primary job is to clog the running lanes
 

die hard gopher said:
Ra'shede has 6.5 TFLs, 23 total tackles, 3 passes broken up and 2 blocked FGs/extra points, for comparison's sake Notre dame's Louis Nix who by some is considered the Projected #1 NFL DT has 20 total tackles, 1 TFL, and zero other miscellaneous stats(forced fumbles, INTs, passes batted down, blocked FGs), ASU's Will Sutton only has 2.5 TFLs, 1 sack and 18 total tackles, FSU's Timmy Jernigan has 17 tackles, 3 TFLs, one of them being a sack, and LSU's Anthony Johnson has 5.5 TFLs, 2 of them being sacks and 24 total tackles,(he has played in all 7 games this year for LSU, all of the other guys have only played in six games including Ra'Shede)

Ra'Shede has better numbers then all of those guys i just listed who are his competition for the NFL draft, him being a first round pick and ideally an early first rounder would effectively nullify the possibility of us not making a bowl game for me, the biggest problem for Ra'shede is that he doesn't play on as many prime time nationally televised games as the other guys
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All those guys are playing against far superior opponents. Shede's numbers this year come from puffcake games. Look at his numbers in the 2 conference games this year. 1 blocked pass and 1-2 tackles for loss (i'm too lazy to look it up)? There is a lot of season left so maybe he will make me eat crow on saying this but he is NOT first round talent as of yet.... even though I do think he will go in the first round because NFL scouts get off on "sheer athletic ability" during the combine.

I'm confused by your statement. Are you saying that since he (in your mind) is an early first round pick we should automatically make a bowl game?
 

In checking the various draft websites, there are clearly a lot of different opinions out there about Ra'Shede. ESPN seems to be more objective than other sites, some of which rank him much higher than ESPN (which has him ranked as the #64 best player overall and #9 at his position, the lowest I've seen). It seems ESPN also doesn't view him as first-round material. With regard to football skills, here is their analysis:

Versus the Run - Penetrates and disrupts. Doesn't have to win with quickness to be effective either. Can hold ground one-on-one and even drive offensive linemen back when stays low. Decent range and gets down the line well for size. However, pad level is an issue. Plays too high and with narrow base too often. Occasionally gives ground and gets washed down line a little too much. Can get blown back by double teams. Gap discipline also appears inconsistent.

Pass Rush Skills - Effective bull rusher that can move quarterbacks off spot. Flashes above average speed to power and the ability to run over offensive tackles rushing off the edge. Tracks quarterback and gets hands up when sees him start throwing motion. Flashes effective club-to-swim move and average spin move but doesn't show enough variety at this point. Mobile quarterbacks can shake him.

Quickness (hands/feet) - Flashes active hands and makes it tough to lock on but inconsistent hand fighter that doesn't always press blockers off frame or counterpunch well when does get reached. First-step quickness is good for size and slightly above average for interior defensive lineman.

Toughness/Motor - Not a brawler that wears out blockers with four-quarter tenacity but plays with an edge. Doesn't back down when challenged and takes out frustrations on blockers. Overall effort is good and at times excellent but appears to take occasional play off despite steady rotation keeping him fresh.
 

Hageman

Costa Rican Gopher said:
I don't recall him being overwhelming at all last year. He played well in non-conference against physically outclassed opponents (as he did this year) but then faded against better competition. His technique is still sub-par & his motor is questionable. He's really not seeing that many double teams & imo you could argue Roland Johnson is a better DT. Obviously he's got loads of potential but as of right now I don't think any B1G OC's are having to game plan around Shede.
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I agree with your view. To date Ra'shede has been mostly potential. He is a good tackle but nothing out of the ordinary.
 

Dline is the easiest to defend against IMO. Many seem to forget the olines in the big ten are pretty good and no one is going to just run through them every play. Hageman gets doubled a lot, not every play but a lot. Iowa doubled most of the game. Hageman is one man, our other dlineman have been a huge let down and haven't shown much of anything. Our linebackers have played below average in the pass rush. Personally I feel like we aren't giving hageman a chance to have big numbers. To me it looks like hagemans job is to simply go upfield, we don't stunt, we never drop dline into coverage, just seems to be a huge lack of creativity. It also doesn't help that the offense struggles to stay on the field.

Hageman has been pretty good, especially for a guy that has played the position for only a few yrs.
 

lakesgopher said:
Iowa doubled most of the game.
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No they didn't. I watch generally watch the lines during football games since that's where I played and it's the position I have the most interest in. Shede was simply beat by his man throughout the Iowa game.

Hageman is one man, our other dlineman have been a huge let down and haven't shown much of anything.
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Also not true at all. Boticcelli is having a great year and has shown a lot of growth since last season. Roland Johnson has been arguably as effective at penetrating the backfield as Shede the last season and a half. Our DEs have been a dissapointment, especially Amafuela, but if you think it's been Shede and nobody else you aren't watching.

Hageman has been pretty good, especially for a guy that has played the position for only a few yrs.
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Yes. This is a good way of putting it. But we aren't comparing him to other DTs that have only played the position for a few years. We're comparing him to other 1st round draft picks.
 

WillieBurton said:
In checking the various draft websites, there are clearly a lot of different opinions out there about Ra'Shede. ESPN seems to be more objective than other sites, some of which rank him much higher than ESPN (which has him ranked as the #64 best player overall and #9 at his position, the lowest I've seen). It seems ESPN also doesn't view him as first-round material. With regard to football skills, here is their analysis:

Versus the Run - Penetrates and disrupts. Doesn't have to win with quickness to be effective either. Can hold ground one-on-one and even drive offensive linemen back when stays low. Decent range and gets down the line well for size. However, pad level is an issue. Plays too high and with narrow base too often. Occasionally gives ground and gets washed down line a little too much. Can get blown back by double teams. Gap discipline also appears inconsistent.

Pass Rush Skills - Effective bull rusher that can move quarterbacks off spot. Flashes above average speed to power and the ability to run over offensive tackles rushing off the edge. Tracks quarterback and gets hands up when sees him start throwing motion. Flashes effective club-to-swim move and average spin move but doesn't show enough variety at this point. Mobile quarterbacks can shake him.

Quickness (hands/feet) - Flashes active hands and makes it tough to lock on but inconsistent hand fighter that doesn't always press blockers off frame or counterpunch well when does get reached. First-step quickness is good for size and slightly above average for interior defensive lineman.

Toughness/Motor - Not a brawler that wears out blockers with four-quarter tenacity but plays with an edge. Doesn't back down when challenged and takes out frustrations on blockers. Overall effort is good and at times excellent but appears to take occasional play off despite steady rotation keeping him fresh.
Click to expand...

Not sure why the people who give the lowest ranking are the most "objective" but I appreciate the info. It's instructive that stats are almost completely ignored, just as they are by other pro scouting services.
 

Gopherprof said:
No they didn't. I watch generally watch the lines during football games since that's where I played and it's the position I have the most interest in. Shede was simply beat by his man throughout the Iowa game. Also not true at all. Boticcelli is having a great year and has shown a lot of growth since last season. Roland Johnson has been arguably as effective at penetrating the backfield as Shede the last season and a half. Our DEs have been a dissapointment, especially Amafuela, but if you think it's been Shede and nobody else you aren't watching. Yes. This is a good way of putting it. But we aren't comparing him to other DTs that have only played the position for a few years. We're comparing him to other 1st round draft picks.
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I also watched the Iowa game, and I remember they doubled him a lot, they ran away from him a lot, and I felt like hageman played well. Maybe I'm thinking of another game, I would have to watch it again and I'm not going to put myself through that. If I'm wrong so be it. Not the first time, just stating it as I recall. Our d-ends have been bad to this point. Botticelli has looked good at times but brutal at other points of the game. He reminds me of Carlos silva from the twins. One day silva throws a 75 pitch gem and the next outing he gives up 6 hr's, walks 4, and is out of the game in the 4th inning. Comparing to other top end guys is tough since hageman does not have the tools around him that others have. 1 big time playmaker on the dline is easy to stop. Now if our linebackers and d-ends were better shedes stats would look better. We are a below average team with a stud player that I think is playing solid in a system that doesn't fit his skill set. I believe he will be a 1st rnd draft pick and will have a nice nfl career.
 

Would you guys agree that compared to other B1G teams, the gophers are probably below average on DLine, slightly below average on LB, and below average in the secondary. Was I alone in thinking that the front 7 would stack up a little better than it has so far?

Next year's defensive tackle situation could be a little rough as they are losing both Hageman and Roland Johnson.
 

nokomismod said:
Would you guys agree that compared to other B1G teams, the gophers are probably below average on DLine, slightly below average on LB, and below average in the secondary. Was I alone in thinking that the front 7 would stack up a little better than it has so far?

Next year's defensive tackle situation could be a little rough as they are losing both Hageman and Roland Johnson.
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No. I thought they both units would be better.

PS--I think he'll be a late 1st round/early 2nd round pick. He has so much athletic ability and NFL personnel guys usually put a premium on projection over production. I think the big difference between Hageman and JJ Watt is Watt's unbelievable first step. Hageman may beat him in a 40-yard dash, but that's pretty much irrelevant when grading D-linemen. Watt's quickness off the snap is what sets him apart.
 

NFL.com midseason All-American team.
 


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