HS Football Update - sort of

[disco]

Based on enrollment alone. Mayo is number 32, or the last school in 6A. Moorhead is 33, or the largest school in 5A. Andover is just below Moorhead, and I'm really surprised they aren't a 6A school.

 

[Some guy]

Open Enrollment by definition is enrolling in another district. It is NOT enrolling in another school within your district. I talked about this last year, but you will see some very upset parents in a few years if and likely when the Osseo district re-draws enrollment lines between high schools and parents who thought their kids were going to Maple Grove are reassigned to Osseo, and parents who thought their kids were going to Osseo are reassigned to Park Center. All three high schools in the same district and very different demographically.

I see that Minnetonka is now listed as the largest school in the state, but something like 25-35% of their students are open enrolled, whereas Wayzata has closed open enrollment because their schools are always full.

A ton of districts have intra district open enrollment

 

[disco]

A ton of districts have intra district open enrollment

But they don't have to - that's the point.

 

[Some guy]

But they don't have to - that's the point.

True.
They don’t have to have out of district open enrollment either

 

[disco]

True.
They don’t have to have out of district open enrollment either

A district can't prevent a student from enrolling outside the district.

A district has to allow open enrollment into their district unless they can prove a reason to restrict open enrollment - usually because the district doesn't have the capacity to accept outside students. I believe as a Wayzata district resident, this is the case here.

 

[Word]

A district can't prevent a student from enrolling outside the district.

A district has to allow open enrollment into their district unless they can prove a reason to restrict open enrollment - usually because the district doesn't have the capacity to accept outside students. I believe as a Wayzata district resident, this is the case here.

Correct. Districts can close to open enrollment if they are already at capacity. I know of a few districts that have done this, at least for a few years at a time. Some districts actively recruit open-enrollees to boost their numbers if they have the capacity. I think Minnetonka does that.

 

[disco]

Correct. Districts can close to open enrollment if they are already at capacity. I know of a few districts that have done this, at least for a few years at a time. Some districts actively recruit open-enrollees to boost their numbers if they have the capacity. I think Minnetonka does that.

Minnetonka does it and it's no secret. It's a mature district and they realized years ago that they'd have to shut down schools if they couldn't keep enrollment up. According to the district, they have kids from 42 other districts (I don't see how that's even possible) but I know that every person I know right now who lives in the Hopkins district has their kids in Minnetonka.

 

[gopherdudepart2]

Based on enrollment alone. Mayo is number 32, or the last school in 6A. Moorhead is 33, or the largest school in 5A. Andover is just below Moorhead, and I'm really surprised they aren't a 6A school.

Andover caps enrollment, only school in that district that does so. They have all the facilities and booster clubs 6A schools have. Elk River district has 3 High Schools, and at least 2 of them should be 6A not 1.

 

[Some guy]

A district can't prevent a student from enrolling outside the district.

A district has to allow open enrollment into their district unless they can prove a reason to restrict open enrollment - usually because the district doesn't have the capacity to accept outside students. I believe as a Wayzata district resident, this is the case here.

True. None of that disagrees with anything I’ve said.

 

[disco]

Andover caps enrollment, only school in that district that does so. They have all the facilities and booster clubs 6A schools have. Elk River district has 3 High Schools, and at least 2 of them should be 6A not 1.

I think they intentionally built Zimmerman to be a smaller school than ER and Rogers.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Their JR class (this fall) is good, they will be at USBank the next two years at 4A.

But they should be 5A, no lower, is my point.

 

[Gophers_4life]

You have to limit within district or everyone would want the newest school or school with best sports. People don't want to go to Coon Rapids for example, but they can't all be allowed to go to Andover, Anoka, or Blaine. Blaine has no room.

I don't see the bolded being any actual problem, though.

- You're guaranteed a seat at the school whose boundary you belong to, as determined by the district
- You can apply to switch schools in the district, and the district can have a process that makes a decision on those applications
- But each school can say "look, we've got 1500 total seats, we know there are 1300 kids of our age living in our boundary, so we can accept 200 applicants, and we'll reserve 50 for intra-district and 150 for out of district

Or something like that. That seems fine and reasonable. On the other hand, for a district to say "Nope. No intra-district transfers even allowed to be considered, suck it." .... BS. That should violate state law.

 

[MaxyJR1]

I don't see the bolded being any actual problem, though.

- You're guaranteed a seat at the school whose boundary you belong to, as determined by the district
- You can apply to switch schools in the district, and the district can have a process that makes a decision on those applications
- But each school can say "look, we've got 1500 total seats, we know there are 1300 kids of our age living in our boundary, so we can accept 200 applicants, and we'll reserve 50 for intra-district and 150 for out of district

Or something like that. That seems fine and reasonable. On the other hand, for a district to say "Nope. No intra-district transfers even allowed to be considered, suck it." .... BS. That should violate state law.

Most school districts do as you detailed here. There is an application process in most districts to switch schools. Has there been data on why most kids want to switch schools? I assume a lot has to do with being with friends, but I've never seen the data.

 

[Word]

Most school districts do as you detailed here. There is an application process in most districts to switch schools. Has there been data on why most kids want to switch schools? I assume a lot has to do with being with friends, but I've never seen the data.

Kids will transfer schools within a district for a whole number of reasons. Friends, sports, other programs offered (marching band, tech ed, etc), academic programs, or due to safety (or perceived safety).

 

[Gophers_4life]

Open Enrollment by definition is enrolling in another district. It is NOT enrolling in another school within your district. I talked about this last year, but you will see some very upset parents in a few years if and likely when the Osseo district re-draws enrollment lines between high schools and parents who thought their kids were going to Maple Grove are reassigned to Osseo, and parents who thought their kids were going to Osseo are reassigned to Park Center. All three high schools in the same district and very different demographically.

I see that Minnetonka is now listed as the largest school in the state, but something like 25-35% of their students are open enrolled, whereas Wayzata has closed open enrollment because their schools are always full.

1) then Osseo district is going to be losing a lot of kids in northern Brooklyn Park, for example, who will not allow their kids to go to Park Center. Just plain and simple. They probably know this too, and don't give a crap.

(Aside: it does nobody, anywhere, any possible good to have such dissimilar schools and communities combined into a single school district. Park Center should be split off from Osseo. Maybe combined with Brooklyn Center, much more similar demo's)

2) Bolded in your post: you can claim whatever you want technically, but I don't think such a law could withstand legal challenge. It makes no sense to say that a distract has to, by law accept transfers from outside the district, but has the legal authority to deny transfers within the distract.

That makes no possible, legal sense. Would not, and should not, withstand a challenge.

I suspect that districts simply aren't that foolish. So it hasn't needed to be an issue.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Minnetonka does it and it's no secret. It's a mature district and they realized years ago that they'd have to shut down schools if they couldn't keep enrollment up. According to the district, they have kids from 42 other districts (I don't see how that's even possible) but I know that every person I know right now who lives in the Hopkins district has their kids in Minnetonka.

Hopkins must rapidly be becoming the new St Louis Park.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Andover caps enrollment, only school in that district that does so. They have all the facilities and booster clubs 6A schools have. Elk River district has 3 High Schools, and at least 2 of them should be 6A not 1.

If all of Rogers kids were going up to Elk River, I'm sure it would be.

Rogers community wanted its own high school.


It's interesting to see the difference between districts where it's just one really big, really fast growing city - like Lakeville, or like how Wayzata is basically all of Plymouth west of 494.

Vs a district that is also somewhat large, but composed of distinct, separate cities.

 

[Some guy]

Sounds like 6a schedules are fairly settled in model. May not know dates and home/road or order of opponents until a month or two from now. But basically it’s going to be section play + a crossover with a relief option.


Relief teams opt out of section schedule play each other…section opponents fill out the rest of the schedule.
By taking relief schedule you would be conceding you can’t be seeded above non relief teams.

Rumors are of the 32 6a teams at least 5 and possibly up to 8 could still opt for relief. I’m guessing you all could put it together who they are.
Mayo is NOT one of the teams rumored to be opting for relief.

 

[Gophers_4life]

The idea of "relief" proves that enrollment should not be anywhere near the top of the criteria of selecting class of teams.

 

[Some guy]

The idea of "relief" proves that enrollment should not be anywhere near the top of the criteria of selecting class of teams.

Perhaps.
Enrollment isn’t the only criteria.
Because the classification enrollment figures are pro rated for poverty rates anyways.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Yep sure, but what are the average budgets between top tier and bottom tier? Number of kids out for football in the high school? Feeder program numbers (to the extent that can even be a thing in private?) Etc

 

[Ope3]

Sounds like 6a schedules are fairly settled in model. May not know dates and home/road or order of opponents until a month or two from now. But basically it’s going to be section play + a crossover with a relief option.


Relief teams opt out of section schedule play each other…section opponents fill out the rest of the schedule.
By taking relief schedule you would be conceding you can’t be seeded above non relief teams.

Rumors are of the 32 6a teams at least 5 and possibly up to 8 could still opt for relief. I’m guessing you all could put it together who they are.
Mayo is NOT one of the teams rumored to be opting for relief.

Just a hunch on Mayo, while I am sure they would like to continue intra-city rivalries with Century and JM, they know the games would not be competitive and don't want to risk their potential seeding.

Over the last 2 seasons in 6 total games, the closest either of them got to beating them was Century's 20 pt defeat in the 2021 playoffs. Every other game was by more than 30.

As you pointed out in an earlier post based on their new 6A section, I would think 5-3 and a playoff win should be quite attainable for them, with potential for a slightly higher ceiling.

 

[disco]

Kids will transfer schools within a district for a whole number of reasons. Friends, sports, other programs offered (marching band, tech ed, etc), academic programs, or due to safety (or perceived safety).

I'm pretty sure the Robbinsdale district will not allow intra-district transfers, because so many kids would choose Armstrong over Cooper. One of my best friends used to live in the district before moving out to Buffalo, and I think he said that was the case.

 

[disco]

1) then Osseo district is going to be losing a lot of kids in northern Brooklyn Park, for example, who will not allow their kids to go to Park Center. Just plain and simple. They probably know this too, and don't give a crap.

No question. I lived for 11 years in the far northern part of Brooklyn Park. Houses on the Anoka-Hennepin side of 97th were valued higher than those on the Osseo side, because people would rather send their kids to Champlin Park than Park Center. I think for a time, CP was closed to open enrollment for capacity reasons, in large part due to this - they had portable classrooms there for years. We didn't have a kid yet, but I don't know that I'd have sent him to Brooklyn Middle and Park Center.

(Aside: it does nobody, anywhere, any possible good to have such dissimilar schools and communities combined into a single school district. Park Center should be split off from Osseo. Maybe combined with Brooklyn Center, much more similar demo's)

I explained this to you in great detail last fall. School districts are units of government, like counties and cities. They have taxing powers and boundaries. Demographics don't mean squat. No district is going to voluntarily lose tax revenue because you think culturally PC and Brooklyn Center are a better "fit" together. I referenced the Edina neighborhood that was in the Hopkins district and wanted to move to Edina and how basically impossible that was. You can go look it up again if you want.

Bolded in your post: you can claim whatever you want technically, but I don't think such a law could withstand legal challenge. It makes no sense to say that a distract has to, by law accept transfers from outside the district, but has the legal authority to deny transfers within the distract.

That makes no possible, legal sense. Would not, and should not, withstand a challenge.

I suspect that districts simply aren't that foolish. So it hasn't needed to be an issue.

But it is the case. Possible that nobody has challenged it, but that is the reality. Some schools allow it, some don't, but the district does have the right to deny it. Here's the exact wording from N. St. Paul/Maplewood/Oakdale (North High and Tartan High).

Intra-District Transfer requests for the 2022-23 school year may be granted on a space available basis subject to the approval of the Receiving School Principal and the Assistant Superintendent.

2) Only after an impact review of each proposed attendance exception (based on current and projected class size and building projected enrollments to assure that space is used efficiently and that no site is over capacity or student opportunities diminished due to significant loss of enrollment), will any attendance exception request be approved or denied.

 

[disco]

Yep sure, but what are the average budgets between top tier and bottom tier? Number of kids out for football in the high school? Feeder program numbers (to the extent that can even be a thing in private?) Etc

Feeder programs are probably pretty tough to judge, and they usually have no association with the school district itself, at least in the metro. We had a lot of private school kids in our association for example.

 

[disco]

Rumors are of the 32 6a teams at least 5 and possibly up to 8 could still opt for relief. I’m guessing you all could put it together who they are.
Mayo is NOT one of the teams rumored to be opting for relief.

Coon Rapids, Hopkins, Burnsville, and Roseville seem most obvious.

Farmington was horrible last year. So were Anoka and Eastview, but those don't seem like schools that would/should beg for relief. Before last year, I'd have said Forest Lake, because they'd been terrible for over 20 years, but they ended the season ranked last year.

 

[Gophers_4life]

No question. I lived for 11 years in the far northern part of Brooklyn Park. Houses on the Anoka-Hennepin side of 97th were valued higher than those on the Osseo side, because people would rather send their kids to Champlin Park than Park Center. I think for a time, CP was closed to open enrollment for capacity reasons, in large part due to this - they had portable classrooms there for years. We didn't have a kid yet, but I don't know that I'd have sent him to Brooklyn Middle and Park Center.

Makes sense, thank you for sharing

No district is going to voluntarily lose tax revenue

This is not at all the discussion.

Nor was I proposing that OSD should say something like "we are voluntarily deciding that the current boundary of PCHS should be split off into its own district".

But it is the case. Possible that nobody has challenged it, but that is the reality. Some schools allow it, some don't, but the district does have the right to deny it. Here's the exact wording from N. St. Paul/Maplewood/Oakdale (North High and Tartan High).

Intra-District Transfer requests for the 2022-23 school year may be granted on a space available basis subject to the approval of the Receiving School Principal and the Assistant Superintendent.

2) Only after an impact review of each proposed attendance exception (based on current and projected class size and building projected enrollments to assure that space is used efficiently and that no site is over capacity or student opportunities diminished due to significant loss of enrollment), will any attendance exception request be approved or denied.

Right, as I suspected, two very separate and far apart things are being conflated.

This right here is nothing of the sort of flat out denying/rejecting it from even being considered, at all.

They're saying: "we recognize that it is desired, we do allow it in some cases, we have a process to consider your request, and we may or may not be able to accommodate it, depending on the needs of each school and situation."

Correct. Proper. Acceptable.

A district instead saying "nope, you aren't allowed to even think it, we won't allow it to even be considered, suck it" is night and day different, even if you're trying to conflate them.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Feeder programs are probably pretty tough to judge, and they usually have no association with the school district itself, at least in the metro. We had a lot of private school kids in our association for example.

OK. This is fair. Probably tough to measure, regardless, unless the MSHSL forces every school to keep track of which youth programs every participant of every high school program went through (if at all).

 

[Gophers_4life]

Coon Rapids, Hopkins, Burnsville, and Roseville seem most obvious.

Farmington was horrible last year. So were Anoka and Eastview, but those don't seem like schools that would/should beg for relief. Before last year, I'd have said Forest Lake, because they'd been terrible for over 20 years, but they ended the season ranked last year.

Right.

It makes no possible sense to force those bolded schools to be in 6A, just because their (poverty adjusted) enrollments are higher than some arbitrary threshold.

It doesn't matter if a high school has 5000 students, if it only has 30 total kids out for football.


Those should be put into 5A, and replaced with the four highest-performing 5A programs.

 

[Gophers_4life]

To some degree, this is all hand-waiving BS, anyway.

At the end of the day, the true question is: how many trophies are you handing out in USBS at the end of the season, to make that many teams feel really good about themselves?

What's the correct number? 4, 5, 6, 7, 8? What?

Why shouldn't it be smaller? Why shouldn't it be bigger? Why not 10? Why not 2?