A_Slab_of_Bacon
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Elite!
Look at the classes in the Big Ten....really look at them. Ohio State, Penn State and Michigan have classes that are a cut above the rest. But once you get past those 3 there is very little difference from #4-#14. This idea that we have the X best class in the conference is laughable because there is no way of knowing right now how any of these classes stack up against each other.If you had to answer the question: Is PJ a better X's and O's game tactician or recruiter/salesman?
What would you say? I "think" he should be a better recruiter but the numbers don't support that.
Depending on your criteria we have the 9th to 12th best class in the Big Ten. That can't be acceptable. We gotta be better than that.
There probably is an individual post season award winner in our class but there is nobody the analysts predict is going to be. We need at least one somebody that has some hype...somebody that is supposed to make a difference coming in. Then two, then 3 but we don't ever seem to even get the one.
I just feel PJ should be able to better than 43rd and that number is that high because we took a lot of guys....not because they are individually highly rated. LSU has 13 guys in a week and they are #18. Iowa State is 14 spots ahead of us in a lesser conference, lesser state and lesser metropolitan area. Our normal has to be better.
I have no issue with people grading the class as a C if the reason for that is solid. But saying it is a C class because some recruiting site rankings think slightly more highly of Vanderbilt's players than ours is a really weak reason.Perhaps you should just vote for the rest of us.
I believe recruiting sites are more right on a kids talent evaluation than you or I.... A bottom dwelling sec team has a higher ranked class than ours... Is what it isTakes like these are why I get so annoyed with recruiting. Look at Venderbilt's class and then tell me you can really say that class is better than ours. Team rankings are worthless, the top 10 teams or so are recruiting at a higher level than everyone else. After that it is a big mess of teams where there is very little difference in the classes from top to bottom.
People get way too hung up on the numbers next to a kids name. Or do some people really believe recruiting sites can accurately evaluate players from all over the country playing against all different levels of competition and be spot on every time?
You really are contradicting yourself within this post. If 4-14 have very little difference, then Fleck really hasn't "upped the recruiting" from his predecessors here at the U.Look at the classes in the Big Ten....really look at them. Ohio State, Penn State and Michigan have classes that are a cut above the rest. But once you get past those 3 there is very little difference from #4-#14. This idea that we have the X best class in the conference is laughable because there is no way of knowing right now how any of these classes stack up against each other.
Are we bringing in talent that is comparable to the talent our division foes are bringing in....yes
Are we bringing in talent that is comparable to what most of the conference is bringing in....yes
Are we bringing in talent on par with the helmet schools in the conference....no
I get that fans want to win the recruiting rankings and like to assume those sites are spot on in their assessments of players.
To answer your first question, Fleck is a better recruiter/salesman. And he has upped our recruiting to a level no other coach here has. We are now consistently bringing in players with power 5 offers and interest as opposed to the past when we were not bringing in talent on par with our rivals.
Still room for improvement but we are moving in the right direction.
Mason/Kill brought in players who had very few power 5 options and relied on finding under the radar guys that could be shaped into Big Ten players.You really are contradicting yourself within this post. If 4-14 have very little difference, then Fleck really hasn't "upped the recruiting" from his predecessors here at the U.
Sounds like the definition of a "C".Look at the classes in the Big Ten....really look at them. Ohio State, Penn State and Michigan have classes that are a cut above the rest. But once you get past those 3 there is very little difference from #4-#14. This idea that we have the X best class in the conference is laughable because there is no way of knowing right now how any of these classes stack up against each other.
Are we bringing in talent that is comparable to the talent our division foes are bringing in....yes
Are we bringing in talent that is comparable to what most of the conference is bringing in....yes
Are we bringing in talent on par with the
Still room for improvement but we are moving in the right direction.
Using your term, there is very little difference, in the recruiting class rankings/ratings in the past. A .85 recruit is a .85 recruit, getting P5 offers does not change that.Mason/Kill brought in players who had very few power 5 options and relied on finding under the radar guys that could be shaped into Big Ten players.
Fleck brings in guys with legit Big Ten and Power 5 options. Compared to his predecessors Fleck has definitely upped the recruiting here.
We aren't out recruiting our key rivals but we are bringing in talent that is on par with the guys they are bringing in. We weren't doing that in the past. This is why we have gone from also ran to contender in the division. The exact recruiting rankings don't mean nearly as much as some want to think they do.
Chase Alvarez, Tony Nelson, Ashton Beers, Joey Gerlach, Maverick, Tariq Watson, Nathan Jones. 7 of our 19 recruits didn’t have other P5 offers.Mason/Kill brought in players who had very few power 5 options and relied on finding under the radar guys that could be shaped into Big Ten players.
Fleck brings in guys with legit Big Ten and Power 5 options. Compared to his predecessors Fleck has definitely upped the recruiting here.
We aren't out recruiting our key rivals but we are bringing in talent that is on par with the guys they are bringing in. We weren't doing that in the past. This is why we have gone from also ran to contender in the division. The exact recruiting rankings don't mean nearly as much as some want to think they do.
Actually I was wrong. His lowest class by far was his first class. That class ranked 59th. It consisted of Andries, CrAB, John Michael Schmitz, Mo Ibrahim, Tanner Morgan, Mafe, and Otomewo. Fleck’s best classes have ranked 38, and he’s had three different classes finish at 38.This is Fleck’s lowest ranked class isn’t it? I don’t think he is the phenom recruiter people think/want him to be nor is he the great Xs and Os guy. He’s a phenomenal program manager and he brings in people that fit his model. He doesn’t seem to chase marginal character guys for the sake of talent very often.
Watson had offers from Purdue, WSU, and UVA according to 247, and committed in June.Chase Alvarez, Tony Nelson, Ashton Beers, Joey Gerlach, Maverick, Tariq Watson, Nathan Jones. 7 of our 19 recruits didn’t have other P5 offers.
I stand corrected- 6 of 19.Watson had offers from Purdue, WSU, and UVA according to 247, and committed in June.
Guys like Alvarez and Jones and even Gerlach and Maverick are sort of projects that are tough to evaluate. Big tight end you move to tackle or guys who played safety you want to bulk up and move to linebacker. I don’t think a pure blocking tight end is ever really going to grade out very high either. And then it’s like well they chose not to even offer in state Androff who has multiple P5 offers, so they must like Alvarez and Jones more regardless of who offered them.Chase Alvarez, Tony Nelson, Ashton Beers, Joey Gerlach, Maverick, Tariq Watson, Nathan Jones. 7 of our 19 recruits didn’t have other P5 offers.
Jones had a Vanderbilt offer per 247.I stand corrected- 6 of 19.
And here we thought they out recruited us...not so fast Vanderbilt!Jones had a Vanderbilt offer per 247.
Last I checked Vanderbilt was Power 5 as well so that removes Jones and brings your total to 5 of 19.I stand corrected- 6 of 19.
All the guys you just named are multiple sports athletes with great size, strength and speed. I will trust this group of coaches evaluation over some stupid recruiting service evaluation. Especially athletes like Tony Nelson, Ashton Beers and Nathan Jones, Tariq Watson. Just saying they don't have other power 5 offers doesn't mean these guy's didn't have opportunities to be offered, we don't necessarily know a guy like Tony Nelson that camped with tge Goohers would not gave earned or had more if he didn't commit so early.Chase Alvarez, Tony Nelson, Ashton Beers, Joey Gerlach, Maverick, Tariq Watson, Nathan Jones. 7 of our 19 recruits didn’t have other P5 offers.
Nelson is not a project, that guy will be starting as a redshirt Freshman or Sophmore.Last I checked Vanderbilt was Power 5 as well so that removes Jones and brings your total to 5 of 19.
So over 70% of the class holds at least 1 other power 5 offer and most of them have multiple. In the Kill/Mason days those guys you mentioned that currently sit at the bottom our class would have been up near the top. And the percentage of guys with Power 5 offers was much lower.
Beers, Nelson, and Alvarez are all project offensive lineman. Guys who can come in and develop for multiple years before being called on to play. Lots of quality O-Line players follow this path from lower rated recruit to future starter.
Fleck has upped recruiting, maybe not to the level some were expecting, but there is zero doubt we are bringing in a higher level of athlete under Fleck than we were under Mason/Kill.
Your arguments are all over the place... Fact: Jerry Kill and Claeys identified talent. They had 14 guys they evaluated as players and that got drafted into the NFL PJ presently has two in Bateman and St Juste. We are coming on year 6 for PJ. Yes, he'll add a couple this draft but he's behind. Big Dan will get him to 3 guys.Mason/Kill brought in players who had very few power 5 options and relied on finding under the radar guys that could be shaped into Big Ten players.
Fleck brings in guys with legit Big Ten and Power 5 options. Compared to his predecessors Fleck has definitely upped the recruiting here.
We aren't out recruiting our key rivals but we are bringing in talent that is on par with the guys they are bringing in. We weren't doing that in the past. This is why we have gone from also ran to contender in the division. The exact recruiting rankings don't mean nearly as much as some want to think they do.
Elite does not equal the 13th ranked average recruit rating. Elite does not equal the 10th rated talent level. Time will tell where the class lands in terms of performance on the field - as with all classes. We'll know in 5 years how this class really ranks but to me, it's a C.Elite!
Not sure where you get 14 players evaluated by Kill/Claeys that were drafted - unless you are counting Ra'Shede Hageman and Brock Vereen, who were Brewster "evaluations". By my count, Kill/Claeys "evaluated" 12 players during their time at MN who would eventually get drafted:Your arguments are all over the place... Fact: Jerry Kill and Claeys identified talent. They had 14 guys they evaluated as players and that got drafted into the NFL PJ presently has two in Bateman and St Juste. We are coming on year 6 for PJ. Yes, he'll add a couple this draft but he's behind. Big Dan will get him to 3 guys.
PJ's evaluation is not superior in judging talent to Kill when it comes to putting guys in the NFL....guys who excel as football players.
Some of the linemen who may get drafted soon were recruits identified by Kill and Claeys as well, plus Coney Durr.
So, the idea that PJ recruits better...identifies talent better ... doesn't ring true for me.
So Kill/Claeys get the credit for the players they inherited plus everyone on the roster when they left. Yet Fleck only gets credit for the ones he brought in (you shorted him one as was pointed out). Fleck still has players from his first class on the team, so he’s only behind when you stack the deck like you are doing. Fleck is actually ahead as Kill didn’t have his own guys drafted until 2015 and he was hired at the end of 2010.Your arguments are all over the place... Fact: Jerry Kill and Claeys identified talent. They had 14 guys they evaluated as players and that got drafted into the NFL PJ presently has two in Bateman and St Juste. We are coming on year 6 for PJ. Yes, he'll add a couple this draft but he's behind. Big Dan will get him to 3 guys.
PJ's evaluation is not superior in judging talent to Kill when it comes to putting guys in the NFL....guys who excel as football players.
Some of the linemen who may get drafted soon were recruits identified by Kill and Clayes as well, plus Coney Durr.
So, the idea that PJ recruits better...identifies talent better ... doesn't ring true for me.
No one other than you gives a shit about comparisons to Kill and 7 years ago. It’s over, breathe deep. 30% of the class didn’t have other P5 options. You inflated the class due to your blindness for all things Fleck, and since the class is below average in both the B1G and nationally, your only comeback is that it’s better than the last guy 7 years ago.Last I checked Vanderbilt was Power 5 as well so that removes Jones and brings your total to 5 of 19.
So over 70% of the class holds at least 1 other power 5 offer and most of them have multiple. In the Kill/Mason days those guys you mentioned that currently sit at the bottom our class would have been up near the top. And the percentage of guys with Power 5 offers was much lower.
Beers, Nelson, and Alvarez are all project offensive lineman. Guys who can come in and develop for multiple years before being called on to play. Lots of quality O-Line players follow this path from lower rated recruit to future starter.
Fleck has upped recruiting, maybe not to the level some were expecting, but there is zero doubt we are bringing in a higher level of athlete under Fleck than we were under Mason/Kill.