Has this recruiting cycle for Coach Fleck been successful thus far?

Face The Facts

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A few, good, objective comments here and happy to see it.

But many keep making excuses for close losses after 5/6 years. Fleck's record against WI/Iowa speaks for itself. What's the winning percentage?

Some think Fleck is the best recruiter in the last two/three decades. If that is true, why is his winning percentage only slighter better than Masons? The answer...he's not a great "in game" HC.

To be on the level of our two biggest rivals in the West, you can't keep making bone headed mistakes.

It's not a difficult concept.

Well, considering Mason was our best coach in the last 40 years, being better than Mason would be a good thing.

You're conveniently leaving out all of the other "move the goal post arguments" people make.

"Why doesn't he beat Nebraska?"
"Why can't he even beat Purdue and Northwestern?"
"Why can't he win a Bowl Game?"
"Why can't he beat a top 20 team?"
"Why can't he schedule and win some games against Power Five teams?"

Why, because he's done all of those things in 5 short years.
 

PMWinSTP

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Oh goody....you are still around....thought this board was getting a little too peaceful without your special brand of insight.

13-5 in last two full Big Ten seasons. And at Minnesota, Fleck is far and away the best recruiter in the last 2-3 decades....it isn't even close.
Why do you pull out 2020?
 


JoeSchmoe

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We don't get to factor in the PJ recruits who have already moved on? Blaise, Big Dan, Esezi, Mafe, Bateman, St. Juste, Williamson? We don't get to factor in PJ recruits with eligibility left that have already been fantastic (Nubin, Walley, Mo, JMS)?
If you want to look at any coaches recruiting ability, then you must look at the years where only that coaches recruits played on the team. It's pretty basic stuff not sure how I could dumb it down further for you.
 

PMWinSTP

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If you aren't wise enough to figure that out, I don't think anyone can really help you.
Really, best you can do, I guess. Did those games not count? Do we pull 2020 out when talking about Mo?
 


WriterGoph

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If you want to look at any coaches recruiting ability, then you must look at the years where only that coaches recruits played on the team. It's pretty basic stuff not sure how I could dumb it down further for you.

That's honestly the dumbest take I've seen in ages on here. So nobody knows if Ryan Day is a good recruiter or coach yet? 🤣
 


Bob_Loblaw

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If you want to look at any coaches recruiting ability, then you must look at the years where only that coaches recruits played on the team. It's pretty basic stuff not sure how I could dumb it down further for you.
I understand that's a rule that you've made up but as everyone with a fully functioning brain hasn't pointed out, it's a terrible rule.

Is PJ less of a recruiter because Bateman, Faalele, Andries, Mafe, and Otomewo left with eligibility remaining? I don't know how to dumb this down any more for you, but those were players who PJ recruited and who helped us win a lot of games. You'd have to be an absolute moron to NOT count those players when evaluating PJ Fleck as a recruiter. C'mon, give your head a shake.

As to your made up and illogical rule, so if PJ going forward, goes over .500 in the Big 10 1 out of the next 7 seasons, we agree that he's the best recruiter in the last 20-30 years? Glen Mason only went over .500 in 2003 (because clearly 1999 doesn't count as there were some Wacker players on that team).

Again, as to your made up and illogical rule, if our team goes 7-6 (4-5), you will admit that PJ is the best recruiter in the last 20-30 years? Those records (total and BIG 10) are both better than Glen Mason's average numbers at the U.
 

MNVCGUY

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Why do you pull out 2020?
Oh good lord. I left 2020 out because it was a messed up season for every team on pretty much every level. No off season, no non conf, cancelled games, moved games, tons of players missing, the whole thing was a mess.

But hey, if it bugs you so much then let's go with this instead. 16-9 in Big Ten games over a 3 year stretch is still great by Gopher football standards. Best I could find for Kill was 11-13. for Brew it was 8-16. Mason 12-12. Wacker 5-18. Gutekunst 10-14. Holtz 7-10. Salem 11-15. Stoll 12-12.

You have to go all the way back to Murray Warmath to find a better 3 year stretch of Big Ten games at 17-4. So looks like maybe, just maybe Fleck is doing something right. Better?
 



JoeSchmoe

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I understand that's a rule that you've made up but as everyone with a fully functioning brain hasn't pointed out, it's a terrible rule.

Is PJ less of a recruiter because Bateman, Faalele, Andries, Mafe, and Otomewo left with eligibility remaining? I don't know how to dumb this down any more for you, but those were players who PJ recruited and who helped us win a lot of games. You'd have to be an absolute moron to NOT count those players when evaluating PJ Fleck as a recruiter. C'mon, give your head a shake.

As to your made up and illogical rule, so if PJ going forward, goes over .500 in the Big 10 1 out of the next 7 seasons, we agree that he's the best recruiter in the last 20-30 years? Glen Mason only went over .500 in 2003 (because clearly 1999 doesn't count as there were some Wacker players on that team).

Again, as to your made up and illogical rule, if our team goes 7-6 (4-5), you will admit that PJ is the best recruiter in the last 20-30 years? Those records (total and BIG 10) are both better than Glen Mason's average numbers at the U.
Um...this is clearly not a "rule" and has nothing to do w/ players who left with eligibility remaining. It has everything to do with who found them, evaluated them, and recruited them to commit to the U. If you want to state any coach is an amazing recruiter then you have to look at the results on the field where his recruits were playing. It's pretty simple. If PJ has an above average record with 100% his guys on the field, then he is an above average recruiter compared to his peers. Once again...pretty simple concept. You can calm down as I'm not saying he sucks at recruiting. I'm saying how would anyone know how good his recruits are until they are on the field. Kill and Co had a lot of key players still playing during the year 2019 and 2021 seasons. Let's see how PJs recruits perform when it's just them. Not a hard concept to grasp. Maybe they will be amazing...maybe they won't time will tell. If a 7-6 record equals the best recruiter in the last 20-30 then god help us all. I know logical thinking is a touchy subject here, so I understand if you don't get it.
 

JoeSchmoe

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That's honestly the dumbest take I've seen in ages on here. So nobody knows if Ryan Day is a good recruiter or coach yet? 🤣
I'm not debating coaching, I'm talking about recruiting. Are Ryan Day's recruits playing? I have no idea as I don't follow Ohio State enough to know what kids are playing and what year they are. It's not hard to understand that if a coach is winning or losing with someone else's recruits then how can you say they are amazing or crappy at recruiting. Stars don't mean anything...it's how they play on the field.
 

btowngopher

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Um...this is clearly not a "rule" and has nothing to do w/ players who left with eligibility remaining. It has everything to do with who found them, evaluated them, and recruited them to commit to the U. If you want to state any coach is an amazing recruiter then you have to look at the results on the field where his recruits were playing. It's pretty simple. If PJ has an above average record with 100% his guys on the field, then he is an above average recruiter compared to his peers. Once again...pretty simple concept. You can calm down as I'm not saying he sucks at recruiting. I'm saying how would anyone know how good his recruits are until they are on the field. Kill and Co had a lot of key players still playing during the year 2019 and 2021 seasons. Let's see how PJs recruits perform when it's just them. Not a hard concept to grasp. Maybe they will be amazing...maybe they won't time will tell. If a 7-6 record equals the best recruiter in the last 20-30 then god help us all. I know logical thinking is a touchy subject here, so I understand if you don't get it.
Ok well Brewster never had 100% his own players, Kill might not have either. We can’t evaluate them as recruiters? Also good recruiting doesn’t always equate to a good record, nor does poor recruiting always mean a bad record.
 

tjgopher

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I'm saying how would anyone know how good his recruits are until they are on the field.

You could start by looking at the fact PJ has had roughly 14 players that he has recruited to a college campus drafted by NFL teams in the past 7 years and is on track to likely have at least another 10 or more drafted over the next 3-4 years.
 



salzie

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Um...this is clearly not a "rule" and has nothing to do w/ players who left with eligibility remaining. It has everything to do with who found them, evaluated them, and recruited them to commit to the U. If you want to state any coach is an amazing recruiter then you have to look at the results on the field where his recruits were playing. It's pretty simple. If PJ has an above average record with 100% his guys on the field, then he is an above average recruiter compared to his peers. Once again...pretty simple concept. You can calm down as I'm not saying he sucks at recruiting. I'm saying how would anyone know how good his recruits are until they are on the field. Kill and Co had a lot of key players still playing during the year 2019 and 2021 seasons. Let's see how PJs recruits perform when it's just them. Not a hard concept to grasp. Maybe they will be amazing...maybe they won't time will tell. If a 7-6 record equals the best recruiter in the last 20-30 then god help us all. I know logical thinking is a touchy subject here, so I understand if you don't get it.
i mean I guess if none of PJ's recruits played and we relied solely on Kill/Claeys guys...maybe you'd have a point?
 

Bob_Loblaw

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Um...this is clearly not a "rule" and has nothing to do w/ players who left with eligibility remaining. It has everything to do with who found them, evaluated them, and recruited them to commit to the U. If you want to state any coach is an amazing recruiter then you have to look at the results on the field where his recruits were playing. It's pretty simple. If PJ has an above average record with 100% his guys on the field, then he is an above average recruiter compared to his peers. Once again...pretty simple concept. You can calm down as I'm not saying he sucks at recruiting. I'm saying how would anyone know how good his recruits are until they are on the field. Kill and Co had a lot of key players still playing during the year 2019 and 2021 seasons. Let's see how PJs recruits perform when it's just them. Not a hard concept to grasp. Maybe they will be amazing...maybe they won't time will tell. If a 7-6 record equals the best recruiter in the last 20-30 then god help us all. I know logical thinking is a touchy subject here, so I understand if you don't get it.
I agree, it's pretty simple. We have seen it on the field.

PJ evaluated and recruited the following players to the U (Bateman, Andries, JMS, CrAB, Mo, Big Dan, Otomewu, Mafe, St. Juste, Williamson, Walley, Nubin, etc.) and they have helped us win a lot more games than anyone in the last 20-30 years. You seem to be arguing that because Connor Olson played last year, it's impossible to evaluate Big Dan. LOL. That's a truly idiotic take.

As for the bold, unfortunately, it is. A 7-6 record would be a better winning percentage than any coach we've had in the last 20-30 years. My whole point is that saying someone is the best recruiter in the last 20-30 years is a very low bar. It's a pretty simple concept. I hope at this point you're just too dug in on your illogical take and this concept isn't just over your head.
 

JoeSchmoe

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I agree, it's pretty simple. We have seen it on the field.

PJ evaluated and recruited the following players to the U (Bateman, Andries, JMS, CrAB, Mo, Big Dan, Otomewu, Mafe, St. Juste, Williamson, Walley, Nubin, etc.) and they have helped us win a lot more games than anyone in the last 20-30 years. You seem to be arguing that because Connor Olson played last year, it's impossible to evaluate Big Dan. LOL. That's a truly idiotic take.

As for the bold, unfortunately, it is. A 7-6 record would be a better winning percentage than any coach we've had in the last 20-30 years. My whole point is that saying someone is the best recruiter in the last 20-30 years is a very low bar. It's a pretty simple concept. I hope at this point you're just too dug in on your illogical take and this concept isn't just over your head.
Then we should continue to see it on the field but in a higher winning percentage if PJ is a great recruiter and now he has all of his recruits on the field since he is a better recruiter than the previous regime. Andries was already committed to the U before PJ was hired. Just sayin. Just keeping it factual. If you don't judge a coach by the results on the field with his recruits playing...then how do you judge that coach's recruiting ability?
You could start by looking at the fact PJ has had roughly 14 players that he has recruited to a college campus drafted by NFL teams in the past 7 years and is on track to likely have at least another 10 or more drafted over the next 3-4 years.
Fact Check outside of the MAC...PJ has had 7 recruits drafted at the U in 5 seasons from 2017-2021. Chris Williamson and down are his recruits. Previous staff had 12 recruits drafted from the U in 6 seasons 2011-2016. The data shows if PJ has 5 more drafted after this season then he is having the same success as the previous staff, no better, no worse.

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PMWinSTP

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Oh good lord. I left 2020 out because it was a messed up season for every team on pretty much every level. No off season, no non conf, cancelled games, moved games, tons of players missing, the whole thing was a mess.

But hey, if it bugs you so much then let's go with this instead. 16-9 in Big Ten games over a 3 year stretch is still great by Gopher football standards. Best I could find for Kill was 11-13. for Brew it was 8-16. Mason 12-12. Wacker 5-18. Gutekunst 10-14. Holtz 7-10. Salem 11-15. Stoll 12-12.

You have to go all the way back to Murray Warmath to find a better 3 year stretch of Big Ten games at 17-4. So looks like maybe, just maybe Fleck is doing something right. Better?
I merely asked why omit that year, not that Fleck isn't doing something right. As you stated, every team had these challenges. If Gophs went 6-1, I suspect not many would omit it. To discount those games discounts the hard work and accomplishments that happened.
 

pharmacygopher

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Then we should continue to see it on the field but in a higher winning percentage if PJ is a great recruiter and now he has all of his recruits on the field since he is a better recruiter than the previous regime. Andries was already committed to the U before PJ was hired. Just sayin. Just keeping it factual. If you don't judge a coach by the results on the field with his recruits playing...then how do you judge that coach's recruiting ability?

Fact Check outside of the MAC...PJ has had 7 recruits drafted at the U in 5 seasons from 2017-2021. Chris Williamson and down are his recruits. Previous staff had 12 recruits drafted from the U in 6 seasons 2011-2016. The data shows if PJ has 5 more drafted after this season then he is having the same success as the previous staff, no better, no worse.

View attachment 18976
GTFO....so you give the current staff zero credit for developing the players they inherited???? LMFAO.

I'd give credit to both staffs because it's literally impossible to know how those same players would have developed under Kill/Claeys. Maybe they would have been better...maybe worse....but we do know they developed into NFL draft picks under PJ.

You realize a big part in recruiting at a school like MN is identifying talent that can be developed and then actually developing that talent. MN doesn't get finished products. So to discount the actual development by PJ and staff is laughable.
 

Plato

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Recruiting 17 and 18 year olds is always a crap shoot, so I would add retention and development but the single best criterion is the conference W/L record.
I would give PJ a C+ for his tenure to date.
 

MNVCGUY

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Should we start taking bets on what banned former poster is now going by the name of JoeSchmoe?

I wonder if he is another fan of MPLS gopherfan or something along those lines.
 

PhillyGopher

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Recruiting 17 and 18 year olds is always a crap shoot, so I would add retention and development but the single best criterion is the conference W/L record.
I would give PJ a C+ for his tenure to date.
A+ trolling
 

PhillyGopher

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Should we start taking bets on what banned former poster is now going by the name of JoeSchmoe?

I wonder if he is another fan of MPLS gopherfan or something along those lines.
only 22 posts for me to ignore him
 

MNVCGUY

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I merely asked why omit that year, not that Fleck isn't doing something right. As you stated, every team had these challenges. If Gophs went 6-1, I suspect not many would omit it. To discount those games discounts the hard work and accomplishments that happened.
My reason for omitting the year was to make the point that in the last two normal seasons the Gophers have done very very well in conference play. It wasn't to say 2020 didn't count it is just tough to factor 2020 into evaluations of any team because it was such a messed up season.

So my point was that when things are normal (off season, spring ball, non conf games, 9 game conference schedule.....) the Gophers have gone 13-5 in the conference over the last two full seasons.
 

btowngopher

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Then we should continue to see it on the field but in a higher winning percentage if PJ is a great recruiter and now he has all of his recruits on the field since he is a better recruiter than the previous regime. Andries was already committed to the U before PJ was hired. Just sayin. Just keeping it factual. If you don't judge a coach by the results on the field with his recruits playing...then how do you judge that coach's recruiting ability?

Fact Check outside of the MAC...PJ has had 7 recruits drafted at the U in 5 seasons from 2017-2021. Chris Williamson and down are his recruits. Previous staff had 12 recruits drafted from the U in 6 seasons 2011-2016. The data shows if PJ has 5 more drafted after this season then he is having the same success as the previous staff, no better, no worse.

View attachment 18976
There were 8 gophers drafted from 2011-2016 not 12. I think 2, Hageman and Vereen might have been Brew recruits. And if you aren’t giving Fleck credit for the recruits drafted from 2017-2020, then say Fleck has had 7 drafted in two years, not five. The first couple years his high school recruits wouldn’t have even been allowed to enter the draft. Could also get into the fact that the Fleck draftees are going in earlier rounds of the draft than the previous regimes players.
 
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MaxyJR1

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I merely asked why omit that year, not that Fleck isn't doing something right. As you stated, every team had these challenges. If Gophs went 6-1, I suspect not many would omit it. To discount those games discounts the hard work and accomplishments that happened.
I would say that the kids coming in and specifically the MN kids are seeing the 11-2 and 9-4 mark in the last 2 full seasons, Kirk coming back, and Fleck's culture as the reasons they are committing. You're right that a 6-1 would have been a different narrative and rightfully so because they would have done it in spite of all the roster changes they had.
 

tjgopher

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Fact Check outside of the MAC...PJ has had 7 recruits drafted at the U in 5 seasons from 2017-2021. Chris Williamson and down are his recruits. Previous staff had 12 recruits drafted from the U in 6 seasons 2011-2016. The data shows if PJ has 5 more drafted after this season then he is having the same success as the previous staff, no better, no worse.

View attachment 18976

Uh, so PJ doesn't get credit for the 8 Western Michigan players he recruited that were drafted from there? Wtf would you eliminate the players from the MAC he recruited? It is harder to get guys drafted out of the MAC, therefore he should get more credit. As I mentioned, PJ has had 14 players that he recruited to college campuses drafted to the NFL. Fact check.

Me thinks someone is quite close to the previous staff and doesn't like the success the new coach is having.

Might I suggest you look into this board?
 
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SixBySix

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Fact Check outside of the MAC...PJ has had 7 recruits drafted at the U in 5 seasons from 2017-2021. Chris Williamson and down are his recruits. Previous staff had 12 recruits drafted from the U in 6 seasons 2011-2016. The data shows if PJ has 5 more drafted after this season then he is having the same success as the previous staff, no better, no worse.

View attachment 18976
Even accepting your questionable parameters of who counts for whom, a 2nd rounder, three 5th rounders, and two 7th rounders is not "the same success" as a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th round picks.
 

JoeSchmoe

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Since I am data driven, I cannot understand the love for PJ's amazing recruiting when it's literally on par to the recruiting success of previous staff. I'm comparing PJ and staff to the previous staff because we were told that he was hired to increase the quality of recruiting. I don't see it yet. Prove me wrong and I'll give you all the credit in the world. It's a head scratcher to me. I'm not debating development as that is a whole different conversation and data set. I'm looking at recruiting at MN and comparing apples to apples.

Here are all the players drafted since 2014 (no players drafted between 2010-2014). From Mafe to St. Juste and then just Williamson are PJ's recruits (7). The rest are the previous staff's recruits (12), except for Hageman and Vereen who were Brew's recruits. This data is on MN's football webpage.

2022Boye MafeLB2nd (40th)Seattle
Daniel FaaleleOL4th (110th)Baltimore
Esezi OtomewoDL5th (165th)Minnesota
Ko KieftTE7th (218th)Tampa Bay
2021Rashod BatemanWR1st (27th)Baltimore
Benjamin St-JusteDB3rd (74th)Washington
2020Antoine Winfield Jr.DB2nd (45th)Tampa Bay
Tyler JohnsonWR5th (161st)Tampa Bay
Kamal MartinLB5th (175th)Green Bay
Carter CoughlinLB7th (218th)New York Giants
Chris WilliamsonDB7th (247th)New York Giants
2019Blake CashmanLB5th (157th)New York Jets
2017Jalen MyrickDB7th (222nd)Jacksonville
2016Eric MurrayDB4th (106th)Kansas City
De'Vondre CampbellLB4th (115th)Atlanta
2015Maxx WilliamsTE2nd (55th)Baltimore
Damien WilsonLB4th (127th)Dallas
David CobbRB5th (138th)Tennessee
Cedric ThompsonS5th (150th)Miami
2014Ra'Shede HagemanDT2nd (37th)Atlanta
Brock VereenS4th (131st)Chicago
 

btowngopher

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Since I am data driven, I cannot understand the love for PJ's amazing recruiting when it's literally on par to the recruiting success of previous staff. I'm comparing PJ and staff to the previous staff because we were told that he was hired to increase the quality of recruiting. I don't see it yet. Prove me wrong and I'll give you all the credit in the world. It's a head scratcher to me. I'm not debating development as that is a whole different conversation and data set. I'm looking at recruiting at MN and comparing apples to apples.

Here are all the players drafted since 2014 (no players drafted between 2010-2014). From Mafe to St. Juste and then just Williamson are PJ's recruits (7). The rest are the previous staff's recruits (12), except for Hageman and Vereen who were Brew's recruits. This data is on MN's football webpage.

2022Boye MafeLB2nd (40th)Seattle
Daniel FaaleleOL4th (110th)Baltimore
Esezi OtomewoDL5th (165th)Minnesota
Ko KieftTE7th (218th)Tampa Bay
2021Rashod BatemanWR1st (27th)Baltimore
Benjamin St-JusteDB3rd (74th)Washington
2020Antoine Winfield Jr.DB2nd (45th)Tampa Bay
Tyler JohnsonWR5th (161st)Tampa Bay
Kamal MartinLB5th (175th)Green Bay
Carter CoughlinLB7th (218th)New York Giants
Chris WilliamsonDB7th (247th)New York Giants
2019Blake CashmanLB5th (157th)New York Jets
2017Jalen MyrickDB7th (222nd)Jacksonville
2016Eric MurrayDB4th (106th)Kansas City
De'Vondre CampbellLB4th (115th)Atlanta
2015Maxx WilliamsTE2nd (55th)Baltimore
Damien WilsonLB4th (127th)Dallas
David CobbRB5th (138th)Tennessee
Cedric ThompsonS5th (150th)Miami
2014Ra'Shede HagemanDT2nd (37th)Atlanta
Brock VereenS4th (131st)Chicago
So let’s take a look at both regimes after being 6 years in. Old regime has 6 picks. Fleck has 7. Old regime had only 2 picks over years 7-9. So Fleck only needs 1 draft pick over the next three years to match the old regime.
 




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