Hallman: Black coaches' shelf life is much shorter & benefit of the doubt much less practiced as opposed to their White counterpart

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oleboy41 said:
I don’t fully disagree with your statements but I generally take issue with the sentiment. Black people (and non black allies) have fought tooth and nail to get every right/concession, the whole while being shouted down by huge segments of the population. The Jussie Smollets of the world only do damage in the minds of those who were opposed in the first place. For every Jussie Smollet situation there are dozens more where black people were physically harmed at the hands of racists and uncountable situations where people were harmed by systemic racism. How many black men are dead today because of a false accusation made by a white person? Its in the thousands. But Jussie Smollet is damaging the cause? No, that situation simply helps reinforce the opinions of those who were and remain enemies of black people and harmony in general. Most people all hot and bothered here by the allusion to racism have nowhere near that level of vitriol for blatant racism when it’s presented to them. I can say that confidently because plenty of people have disagreed without getting stark raving mad about it. And if it IS so harmful, wouldn’t actual black people who don’t agree with that (and there are many), actually get upset about it? But they don’t, because the only people that get mad about it are the same folks that get mad whenever race is brought up.
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You're bringing valid points that are marginalized by people like Hallman passive aggressively invoking racism when someone like Ben Johnson was fired. No program has fewer Big 10 wins than MN while Ben Johnson has been our coach (except the programs who joined this year).

It should be an insult to people that Hallman is using the shield of real atrocities to wine about a coach rightfully being canned.

As to why black people aren't offended by it? Some are. As to the other ones, I suppose some disagree with my premise and for a number of them victimhood is intoxicating. Being a victim or being bullied sure seems to be intoxicating (that's across all people). We live in a world where vapid millionaire celebrities complain about how difficult it is to be famous. We have Megan Markle and Prince Harry complaining about everything - literal royalty. For whatever reason in America, victimhood is incredibly intoxicating and addicting.

Lastly, there also does seem to be a connection in minority groups to defend people that have done awful things. I bring up Jussie Smollet and you say the only people who he did damage to are people who are already racist. That is wild. I don't feel the same kind of connection to white people who do awful things. I disavow any white person that has intentionally accused someone of something they didn't do and if they accused an African American, I do think they perpetuate racism. I would never defend them. You, on the other hand, feel some sort of connection to the man's cause and actions. You spent half your time defending, minimizing, and "yeah, butting" his actions.

So why aren't some black people offended at race hustlers, you tell me.
 


LongLiveMilesTarver said:
Clem could have retired here if he would have run a clean program (and I don't even care that some term papers were written by gangelhoff).
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This. Listening to him in interviews, he spoke with such purpose. Very inspiring and dignified. It's not surprising we all yearn for another coach like him.
 

Gilthorp57 said:
In the off season, it seemed like he went on summer vacation, whereas with PJ, you see and hear him everywhere.
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I this is an under reported reason for moving on from Ben. Ben did nothing to raise his profile and advertise the product. Nobody could pick him out of a crowd. I bet even half of potential donor pool could even name the MBB coach

Hell, I went to an athletic dept event for donors that had MBB on the agenda and Thorson came out to talk. WTF would Ben be so busy with to not show up to meet donors?
 




Bob_Loblaw said:
You're bringing valid points that are marginalized by people like Hallman passive aggressively invoking racism when someone like Ben Johnson was fired. No program has fewer Big 10 wins than MN while Ben Johnson has been our coach (except the programs who joined this year).

It should be an insult to people that Hallman is using the shield of real atrocities to wine about a coach rightfully being canned.

As to why black people aren't offended by it? Some are. As to the other ones, I suppose some disagree with my premise and for a number of them victimhood is intoxicating. Being a victim or being bullied sure seems to be intoxicating (that's across all people). We live in a world where vapid millionaire celebrities complain about how difficult it is to be famous. We have Megan Markle and Prince Harry complaining about everything - literal royalty. For whatever reason in America, victimhood is incredibly intoxicating and addicting.

Lastly, there also does seem to be a connection in minority groups to defend people that have done awful things. I bring up Jussie Smollet and you say the only people who he did damage to are people who are already racist. That is wild. I don't feel the same kind of connection to white people who do awful things. I disavow any white person that has intentionally accused someone of something they didn't do and if they accused an African American, I do think they perpetuate racism. I would never defend them. You, on the other hand, feel some sort of connection to the man's cause and actions. You spent half your time defending, minimizing, and "yeah, butting" his actions.

So why aren't some black people offended at race hustlers, you tell me.
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You were doing ok until you took a left turn. I didnt defend anything Smollett did. I spent plenty of time cracking jokes about him when that happened and never believed it in the first place. I simply stated that his lying didnt do any damage to anyone sincere about any of this. Nobody decided to stop fighting for justice because an actor lied.

And congrats on not aligning with bad white people. There’s been plenty of scholarship on the differences between black and white identity. Black people in general identify more with other black people than white people do for a number of reasons, mostly due to numbers and oppression. Thats why black people acknowledge black strangers in spaces that are mostly white. And Ill end with this: its a rare black person that will ever use a term like ‘race hustler’. As long as you believe thats even a valid or relevant thing we’ll be far apart on this topic. There are hundreds of thousands of white people that have found ways to ‘hustle race’ for every one black person who has. And to paint a guy like Charles Hallman as a race hustler shows how little you know of not only him but of how few black people ever make a dime from falsifying racism. Youre arguing about the minuscule exceptions to the universal rule. And Ill say this: my own father spent his life fighting for justice in Minneapolis. He was called all sorts of names such as ‘race hustler’ by the disingenuous who were more interested in burying racism than facing it. He passed away with little to his name but a clear conscience and a community of people who loved him. He didnt profit from fighting the good fight. Neither do 99.999% of those who do, including Charles Hallman who Ive known literally my entire life. But according to you I should be offended by him because he has an opinion you disagree with, when there are actual people in positions of power committing acts that perpetuate actual factual damaging racism day in and day out. If a black man who’s spent his life serving his community in a state thats less than 5% black thinks race may have played a factor, you may not agree, but if it pisses you off, you should probably look in the mirror.
 

LongLiveMilesTarver said:
Clem could have retired here if he would have run a clean program (and I don't even care that some term papers were written by gangelhoff).
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Stole my post. If he had either not cheated to keep players eligible or had not been caught, that court would be named after him. With the perspective of passing time, he gets more and more extraordinary. Regardless of skin color, he's the kind of coach you look for.
 



Bad Gopher said:
Stole my post. If he had either not cheated to keep players eligible or had not been caught, that court would be named after him. With the perspective of passing time, he gets more and more extraordinary. Regardless of skin color, he's the kind of coach you look for.
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I was at the Willie Burton jersey retirement game against Michigan st. Clem got a huge standing ovation and even when he was sitting in his seat it was just a procession of ex players going over to hug him. That was all the proof I needed that he was so beloved.

I will always believe he was a good man that got caught up in something bad. He'll likely be my favorite gopher coach of all time even with the passing of 50 years.
 

LongLiveMilesTarver said:
I was at the Willie Burton jersey retirement game against Michigan st. Clem got a huge standing ovation and even when he was sitting in his seat it was just a procession of ex players going over to hug him. That was all the proof I needed that he was so beloved.

I will always believe he was a good man that got caught up in something bad. He'll likely be my favorite gopher coach of all time even with the passing of 50 years.
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He knowingly cheated. I believe he got frustrated knowing what other programs were getting away with and feeling like he was fighting with one hand tied behind his back. When he lost Webber to Michigan, who was very dirty--and everyone knew they were dirty and looked the other way because the Fab Five was too good a story for anyone to rain on their parade--I feel like something snapped inside him. He went into fuck-it mode when it came to propriety.
 

oleboy41 said:
You were doing ok until you took a left turn. I didnt defend anything Smollett did. I spent plenty of time cracking jokes about him when that happened and never believed it in the first place. I simply stated that his lying didnt do any damage to anyone sincere about any of this. Nobody decided to stop fighting for justice because an actor lied.

And congrats on not aligning with bad white people. There’s been plenty of scholarship on the differences between black and white identity. Black people in general identify more with other black people than white people do for a number of reasons, mostly due to numbers and oppression. Thats why black people acknowledge black strangers in spaces that are mostly white. And Ill end with this: its a rare black person that will ever use a term like ‘race hustler’. As long as you believe thats even a valid or relevant thing we’ll be far apart on this topic. There are hundreds of thousands of white people that have found ways to ‘hustle race’ for every one black person who has. And to paint a guy like Charles Hallman as a race hustler shows how little you know of not only him but of how few black people ever make a dime from falsifying racism. Youre arguing about the minuscule exceptions to the universal rule. And Ill say this: my own father spent his life fighting for justice in Minneapolis. He was called all sorts of names such as ‘race hustler’ by the disingenuous who were more interested in burying racism than facing it. He passed away with little to his name but a clear conscience and a community of people who loved him. He didnt profit from fighting the good fight. Neither do 99.999% of those who do, including Charles Hallman who Ive known literally my entire life. But according to you I should be offended by him because he has an opinion you disagree with, when there are actual people in positions of power committing acts that perpetuate actual factual damaging racism day in and day out. If a black man who’s spent his life serving his community in a state thats less than 5% black thinks race may have played a factor, you may not agree, but if it pisses you off, you should probably look in the mirror.
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I don't align myself with any bad people. I align myself with good people.

I never said there aren't white people who hustle race. LOL. There are an infinite number of white race hustlers. You keep wanting this to be a white versus black thing. I am against people who hide behind the injustices of a group of people for their own benefit - this includes race hustlers, corrupt non-profits, gender/sexuality hustlers, predatory lenders, etc., of any and all ilk. Pointing to me that there are bad white people is not a surprise to me and I don't defend them or align with them.

As far as Charles Hallman, I know of him but I don't know his whole body of work. I tend to not think people are all right or wrong, all good or bad, or any of those things. He very well could have done tremendous things for the community. That said, in this instance, he is either the world's biggest idiot or he is race hustling. It is purely idiotic to think Ben Johnson's race had anything to do with his firing. No program has won fewer games in the Big 10 since he has been our coach. Ben failed at his job. He was proven to be worse than every single one of his colleagues during his span. If Hallman doesn't think Ben Johnson's firing was 100% because of performance, he's either dumb or being intentionally biased. I don't think he's dumb.

It doesn't piss me off that Charles Hallman thinks or pretends to think race played a factor, I 100% expected that to be the case. I have zero doubts that if Jamele Hill commented on the situation that she would think race played a factor. I had zero doubts Gopherlady would make those insinuations. It doesn't piss me off. I am just pointing out that he is wrong and being a race hustler. It doesn't piss me off anymore than flat earthers piss me off. I think they're wrong. We should all point to them and say they're wrong and not be guilted away from pointing it out.
 

Ben Johnson was fired for poor performance. To suggest otherwise is either intentionally being done to stir the pot or somebody is choosing to ignore a statistically significant data set with over 120 data points that show a process that was largely out of control. Take the emotion out of it and look at the math. It ain't mathin', and there is no indication or trend to suggest it would magically fix itself. An intervention needed to be made. Unless Hallman was planning on injecting large sums of money and/or funnel 4 and 5 star recruits into the program, he would be better served promoting black candidates, perhaps from the assistant ranks, instead of dying on a failed hill called Ben Johnson.

And for the record, I'd take Clem back in a heartbeat. Loved that guy, and you'd have an easier time convincing me that his dismissal was racially motivated considering his scandal was significantly less scandalous than the crap his white contemporaries were pulling.

Hang the damn banner back up. 💪
 



MNVCGUY said:
Using Izzo to make his case is just foolish. Runs like the one Izzo has had at MSU are the exception not the rule regardless of the coaches skin color. Heck, getting to double digit in terms of years at one school is becoming a thing of the past.

Does Hallman think Craig Smith got a raw deal at Utah? Better winning percentage then Johnson, fired after 4 years.
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Not only foolish, sloppy! Apparently, Hallman, like many Gopher Hole posters, doesn't do his homework before making statements. Like this one -------

"But seriously if color didn't matter you'd see more Black head coaches with Tom Izzo-like tenures. He was given time to build a winning program not pulled the plug in short time (5 yrs or less)"

Izzo's first season was 16-16

Izzo's second season was 17-12

Izzo's third season was 22-8

Izzo's fourth season was 33-5

Obviously, pulling the plug in 5 years or less never became an issue with Izzo.
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
Not only foolish, sloppy! Apparently, Hallman, like many Gopher Hole posters, doesn't do his homework before making statements. Like this one -------

"But seriously if color didn't matter you'd see more Black head coaches with Tom Izzo-like tenures. He was given time to build a winning program not pulled the plug in short time (5 yrs or less)"

Izzo's first season was 16-16

Izzo's second season was 17-12

Izzo's third season was 22-8

Izzo's fourth season was 33-5

Obviously, pulling the plug in 5 years or less never became an issue with Izzo.
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It is almost like you are suggesting there was an upward trend in performance year over year that warranted continued employment. ;)
 

DarthGopher said:
It is almost like you are suggesting there was an upward trend in performance year over year that warranted continued employment. ;)
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Yeah....so many examples he could have come up with that might have made his point but he chooses to use a hall of fame coach who had a ton of success early on during his time at MSU.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Yeah....so many examples he could have come up with that might have made his point but he chooses to use a hall of fame coach who had a ton of success early on during his time at MSU.
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Like Fred Hoiberg at Nebraska. I browsed a Husker basketball forum recently (I think it was after Iowa beat them in the last game of the season and knocked them out BTT). Someone mentioned that his buyout was about $10 million. At least the Gopher athletic department isn't willing to be stupid with contracts.
 


I
MNVCGUY said:
Yeah....so many examples he could have come up with that might have made his point but he chooses to use a hall of fame coach who had a ton of success early on during his time at MSU.
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The better example is those “oh, crap, they’re giving that guy another year?!” situations, which have predominantly benefitted white coaches. In fact, other than Patrick Ewing, who had a complicated connection to his team’s glory days, I can’t think of any black coaches who have gotten a WTF?! year (yeah, yeah, Ben. Well played. I had no problem with a 4th year and was relieved there wasn’t a 5th). In that sense, Hallman may be an uninformed chucklehead, but I think he has a point.
 

TwistingMyMelon said:
Not only foolish, sloppy! Apparently, Hallman, like many Gopher Hole posters, doesn't do his homework before making statements. Like this one -------

"But seriously if color didn't matter you'd see more Black head coaches with Tom Izzo-like tenures. He was given time to build a winning program not pulled the plug in short time (5 yrs or less)"

Izzo's first season was 16-16

Izzo's second season was 17-12

Izzo's third season was 22-8

Izzo's fourth season was 33-5

Obviously, pulling the plug in 5 years or less never became an issue with Izzo.
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Yeah that guy isn’t very smart. Izzo after 2 years won the conference 4 straight seasons. What a race hustler not a good dude
 


One possible reason why black coaches may have a shorter shelf life: Some of them are hired because they are black by well meaning people attempting to check a box. That's not the right way to hire. Hire by merit.
 

I have not researched the problem of so many black players and so few black head coaches...but part of it I think is the strategy to become a head coach. The majority of assistant coaches are black....it is tough for any assistant coach...white or black to leap to a prominent head coaching position without any head coaching experience. Football has coordinators...basketball has less visibility to distinguish yourself as an assistant.
Also, how many of these assistant coaches want to be head coaches? Sure, the money is nice but the job is night and day different. Many realize that and are happy as an assistant without the spotlight, increased responsibility and scrutiny.
 

FritoPendejo said:
I

The better example is those “oh, crap, they’re giving that guy another year?!” situations, which have predominantly benefitted white coaches. In fact, other than Patrick Ewing, who had a complicated connection to his team’s glory days, I can’t think of any black coaches who have gotten a WTF?! year (yeah, yeah, Ben. Well played. I had no problem with a 4th year and was relieved there wasn’t a 5th). In that sense, Hallman may be an uninformed chucklehead, but I think he has a point.
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I would still like to see if there is actually some proof that black coaches get less time than white coaches in the current era. But that is a tough thing to research because every situation is different.

There is definitely an issue in regards to the total number of black head coaches in college basketball but is there proof to back up the assertion that a black head coach gets less time to succeed than their white counter parts? Right now it feels like these assertions are based on a feeling more than actual proof.

In 2025 most fans could give a crap what color the coaches skin is if he is successful and winning games. And if he isn't winning they will want him gone regardless of skin color.
 

bga1 said:
One possible reason why black coaches may have a shorter shelf life: Some of them are hired because they are black by well meaning people attempting to check a box. That's not the right way to hire. Hire by merit.
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Do you see any athletic teams NOT comprised of meritorious players? Why the disconnect?
 

MNVCGUY said:
I would still like to see if there is actually some proof that black coaches get less time than white coaches in the current era. But that is a tough thing to research because every situation is different.
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It could well be true but it wouldn't likely point to racism.
MNVCGUY said:
There is definitely an issue in regards to the total number of black head coaches in college basketball but is there proof to back up the assertion that a black head coach gets less time to succeed than their white counter parts? Right now it feels like these assertions are based on a feeling more than actual proof.

In 2025 most fans could give a crap what color the coaches skin is if he is successful and winning games. And if he isn't winning they will want him gone regardless of skin color.
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100% right! My favorite coaches here are Bill Musselman and Clem Haskins. They both won.
 

Craig Smith fired after 4 seasons.

Kevin Kruger fired after 4 seasons.

WHY DON'T WHITE COACHES GET THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT!!??
 

FritoPendejo said:
I

The better example is those “oh, crap, they’re giving that guy another year?!” situations, which have predominantly benefitted white coaches. In fact, other than Patrick Ewing, who had a complicated connection to his team’s glory days, I can’t think of any black coaches who have gotten a WTF?! year (yeah, yeah, Ben. Well played. I had no problem with a 4th year and was relieved there wasn’t a 5th). In that sense, Hallman may be an uninformed chucklehead, but I think he has a point.
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Juwan Howard threw a punch. Should have been let go within 10 minutes. He got two more years of underachieving.

Probably got those extra years because he’s otherwise a likeable dude. Plus the fab five were kind if heroes back in the day.

He got coach of the yr award. The coach of the yr award was a little puzzling too.

Heck, he had some great players. His teams were fine in NCAA tournament, but had some inexplicablely bad records with the talent he recruited.
 

Well there goes another one, another black coach named Kyle Neptune, Villanova was relieved of his duties. His firing cancel's out the Iowa firing. LOL
 


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