Focusing in on Kill's B1G recruiting style

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EG#9 said:
So many of these posts make me sad, here's a few counterpoints:

1. Brewster didn't "prove" anything could not work at Minnesota other than hiring a head coach who had never been a coordinator before and then changing offenses 3 times in 4 years. The Gophers still went to two of those "bowl" games you seem to love even with their best player getting injured both seasons.

2. If you want to talk about something that doesn't work, look at recruiting at/near the bottom of the conference under the previous coach. He had ten years to prove such a strategy would work, and most of you witnessed it.

3. You don't need to win before you can recruit better than bottom 3 of the conference. The most highly regarded class the Gophers brought in during the Internet age was done on the heels of a one win season.

4. Boise State, TCU (never mind Army and Navy) are irrelevant examples to winning at Minnesota. This is one of the nations largest universities in a major market, their is little to nothing in common with those schools. We also play a schedule that includes 9 or more games against BCS competition. What works there will not work in the Big Ten. The argument that Wisconsin and Iowa won with inferior talent is a valid point.

5. The argument is not that "stars matter", even though plenty of research shows that they do. The concern is that the Gophers are bringing in kids who do not have offers from other BCS schools. I think it is hilarious that some people want to throw grenades at those who express concern about this fact, yet these same people want us to believe that somehow Jerry Kill knows talent better than other Big Ten coaches...why? Because they say so.

6. I don't expect Jerry Kill to land a multitude of 4 star recruits out of the gate. What I expect him to do is recruit to the same level as Tim Brewster and outcoach him on the field. That means landing the vast majority of top Minnesota kids while shutting Iowa out and continuing to limit Wisconsins impact. That means having out of state recruits with offers from other BCS programs and landing the occasional big fish.
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Thank you. You said it better than I ever could.
 

Just for discussion sake, my take...

EG#9 said:
So many of these posts make me sad, here's a few counterpoints:

1. Brewster didn't "prove" anything could not work at Minnesota other than hiring a head coach who had never been a coordinator before and then changing offenses 3 times in 4 years. The Gophers still went to two of those "bowl" games you seem to love even with their best player getting injured both seasons.
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Agreed. The Brewster hire was an institutional mistake.

Kill has said repeatedly that when he arrived, the lack of Gopher athleticism, speed and depth/experience was obvious.

Was this due to a failure to recruit, develop and retain athletes able to handle the academic/B1G grind under the previous regime or was something else going on?

Experiencing a major meltdown after Decker went down in two different seasons speaks to lack of depth and its consequences for a talent-thin team. Tubby went through this last year with Nolen. Kill seems to want a great deal of depth at certain positions, but obviously some feel he's not attracting B1G-caliber talent to accomplish that goal.

2. If you want to talk about something that doesn't work, look at recruiting at/near the bottom of the conference under the previous coach. He had ten years to prove such a strategy would work, and most of you witnessed it.
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Most here would probably say that Mason's recruiting strategy worked on the offensive side of the game, but failed on the defensive side (or perhaps it was defensive development/coaching).

In rebuilding, IA and WI seem to have used Kill's approach and it worked for them...they started winning and eventually attracted more upper-tier stars.


3. You don't need to win before you can recruit better than bottom 3 of the conference. The most highly regarded class the Gophers brought in during the Internet age was done on the heels of a one win season.
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Agreed.

Brewster was hired as a superior recruiter, but as many have commented, he brought in many players who were not capable of handling the academic/football combo demands at Minnesota and there was considerable attrition which contributed to the depth problem Kill is dealing with now.

Remains to be seen if Kill's recruiting evaluations and offers will solve this problem.

4. Boise State, TCU (never mind Army and Navy) are irrelevant examples to winning at Minnesota. This is one of the nations largest universities in a major market, their is little to nothing in common with those schools. We also play a schedule that includes 9 or more games against BCS competition. What works there will not work in the Big Ten. The argument that Wisconsin and Iowa won with inferior talent is a valid point.
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Agreed. Without quality depth to handle the problem of inevitable key injuries in a grinder conference like the B1G, the Boise/TCU model probably breaks down at Minnesota over a long season of intense competitiion.

Big unknown: Can Kill develop quality develop quality depth just like IA and WI have done without attracting the big stars?

5. The argument is not that "stars matter", even though plenty of research shows that they do. The concern is that the Gophers are bringing in kids who do not have offers from other BCS schools. I think it is hilarious that some people want to throw grenades at those who express concern about this fact, yet these same people want us to believe that somehow Jerry Kill knows talent better than other Big Ten coaches...why? Because they say so.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Stars matter, but at some programs (IA,WI), they don't matter as much as they apparently do at Texas etc. Superior coaching/development at IA/WI?

Re no offers from other BCS schools? Agreed, that's an obvious flag of concern to many. OTOH, while at NIU, many point out that Kill defeated Minnesota and Purdue using a low-star/no-star recruiting strategy. People believe Kill can identify D1 talent because his player development program has worked against B1G competition. Will it work against the B1G biggies? Time will tell.

6. I don't expect Jerry Kill to land a multitude of 4 star recruits out of the gate. What I expect him to do is recruit to the same level as Tim Brewster and outcoach him on the field. That means landing the vast majority of top Minnesota kids while shutting Iowa out and continuing to limit Wisconsins impact. That means having out of state recruits with offers from other BCS programs and landing the occasional big fish.
Click to expand...

When accounting for the reduced attrition likely with Kill's recruiting approach to player development and depth building, Kill might arguably be recruiting at a level at least equivalent to Brewster. If Kill doesn't outcoach Brewster on the field given Kill's winning history, there will be a great deal of disappointment among the faithful.

Nearly half of Kill's verbals so far are top Minnesota kids, so he seems to be following through on one of his major objectives in attracting local talent. Everyone here knows he won't get them all.

Agreed. No question Minnesota cannot be competitive in the B1G withhout an infusion of out of state talent.

The fewer offers propects have from other BCS programs, the more concern on this board about Kill's recruiting abilities, worries about the outlook for a winning future and the more fodder for spirited discussion on threads like this one until we get more feedback from actual results on the field this season.
 

Redbird said:
Can't help but be reminded of Bo Ryan when I see Kill's approach so far. These guys have a number of parallels: both were long-time succesfull coaches at lower levels, and neither were flashy high profile always looking for a better job types. Bottom line is they have both been very stable and seem to have clear idea of what they are looking for in a recruit and what it takes to win. Bo Ryan much as I hate to say it is an excellent coach who doesn't seem to be interested in recruiting the 4-star guys and wins anyway. He also was no-name hire (except in the state of Wisconsin) and is able to develop his players over a period of years and with his system compete at the highest levels. My feeling about Kill is that he will be defensively focused which will be the strength of his teams, bascially shutting down the other team and scoring just enough to win.
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One of the biggest misconceptions of the Bo Ryan era is that he recruits leftovers and coaches them up to greatness. While nobody doubts his coaching abilities and his system - with good reason - the fact remains that he recruits very competitively and does get many high profile kids. I don't have all of the numbers off the top of my head, but I'm sure somebody can fill in the details.
 

btowngopher said:
I don't think most people are saying that Kill can recruit in the basement and win consistently...although NW has been able to do that. What people are saying is that 1 class near the bottom, which is far from being finalized, isn't going to destroy a program, as Iowa and Wisconsin have proven.
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The fact that northwestern has been able to win consistently with lower end talent fails to prove anything....because that fact is not a fact at all.
Pat Fitzgerald 34-29 (18-22)
Randy walker 37-45 (24-32)
Gary Barnett 35-45-1 (23-33)

Since the beginning of northwestern "winning consistently" in 1995 they are 88-95 (60-66).
 

oleboy41 said:
As far as Kill's recruiting style, its going to be a slow burn. I won't pretend that I'm excited about our recruits because I'm not. Some appear to have some talent but when we're getting commits from kids from talent heavy states that still don't have many or any BCS conference offers, I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that Kill and staff are simply smarter or better evaluators than everyone. I do know that there are a lot of kids that can play and succeed at this level if they are properly coached and develop well. The trouble is that the margain for error is much smaller the less talented a kid is. A kid that comes out of HS at 6'3" 225 and runs a 4.65 certainly has a better shot at turning into a player than the 6'1" 210 kid that runs a 4.7. It appears to me that Kill would rather not get into recruiting battles at this point and I don't know how I feel about that. We're offering and taking the kids we're not having to fight for and that means getting kids of lesser talent at the moment. I really hope he knows what he's doing and doesn't put too much faith into his own evaluation and coaching abilities. Yes TCU and others have won with fewer 'stars' but they also don't play a B10 schedule. Its one thing to go up against the big boys once or twice a year and another thing to have to bang with B10 lines week to week. Will we have the size and depth to compete for 12 weeks? Will we have the talent to overcome a few injuries? Will we be able to consistently stop people once teams get used to this staff's tendencies? I don't know.
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Couldn't have put it better myself.

This whole thread can be summed up with the following: Based on his recruiting tactics, Kill must either be able to 1) Out-coach, or 2) Out-evaluate his competition, or he will not succeed here.
 


josh087 said:
Couldn't have put it better myself.

This whole thread can be summed up with the following: Based on his recruiting tactics, Kill must either be able to 1) Out-coach, or 2) Out-evaluate his competition, or he will not succeed here.
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Given his mostly star-less recruiting reality, maybe he needs to do both in order to succeed at Minnesota.
 

Rosemountian said:
The fact that northwestern has been able to win consistently with lower end talent fails to prove anything....because that fact is not a fact at all.
Pat Fitzgerald 34-29 (18-22)
Randy walker 37-45 (24-32)
Gary Barnett 35-45-1 (23-33)

Since the beginning of northwestern "winning consistently" in 1995 they are 88-95 (60-66).
Click to expand...

I was mostly referring to the Fitzgerald era. Although Barnett and Walker combined to win or share the big10 title 3 times from 1995-2000, I think most gopher fans would take that anyday. Fitzgerald has made 3 straight bowls.
 

In my earlier post, I said Northwestern was "instructive." I believe we can get better athletes than Northwestern, but we have to keep a system in place and keep the kids around to flourish. I firmly believe we can have a stronger program than Northwestern for the long haul.
 




NewEngland_Gold said:
Agreed. The Brewster hire was an institutional mistake.

Kill has said repeatedly that when he arrived, the lack of Gopher athleticism, speed and depth/experience was obvious.

Was this due to a failure to recruit, develop and retain athletes able to handle the academic/B1G grind under the previous regime or was something else going on?

Experiencing a major meltdown after Decker went down in two different seasons speaks to lack of depth and its consequences for a talent-thin team. Tubby went through this last year with Nolen. Kill seems to want a great deal of depth at certain positions, but obviously some feel he's not attracting B1G-caliber talent to accomplish that goal.



Most here would probably say that Mason's recruiting strategy worked on the offensive side of the game, but failed on the defensive side (or perhaps it was defensive development/coaching).

In rebuilding, IA and WI seem to have used Kill's approach and it worked for them...they started winning and eventually attracted more upper-tier stars.




Agreed.

Brewster was hired as a superior recruiter, but as many have commented, he brought in many players who were not capable of handling the academic/football combo demands at Minnesota and there was considerable attrition which contributed to the depth problem Kill is dealing with now.

Remains to be seen if Kill's recruiting evaluations and offers will solve this problem.



Agreed. Without quality depth to handle the problem of inevitable key injuries in a grinder conference like the B1G, the Boise/TCU model probably breaks down at Minnesota over a long season of intense competitiion.

Big unknown: Can Kill develop quality develop quality depth just like IA and WI have done without attracting the big stars?



Agreed. Stars matter, but at some programs (IA,WI), they don't matter as much as they apparently do at Texas etc. Superior coaching/development at IA/WI?

Re no offers from other BCS schools? Agreed, that's an obvious flag of concern to many. OTOH, while at NIU, many point out that Kill defeated Minnesota and Purdue using a low-star/no-star recruiting strategy. People believe Kill can identify D1 talent because his player development program has worked against B1G competition. Will it work against the B1G biggies? Time will tell.



When accounting for the reduced attrition likely with Kill's recruiting approach to player development and depth building, Kill might arguably be recruiting at a level at least equivalent to Brewster. If Kill doesn't outcoach Brewster on the field given Kill's winning history, there will be a great deal of disappointment among the faithful.

Nearly half of Kill's verbals so far are top Minnesota kids, so he seems to be following through on one of his major objectives in attracting local talent. Everyone here knows he won't get them all.

Agreed. No question Minnesota cannot be competitive in the B1G withhout an infusion of out of state talent.

The fewer offers propects have from other BCS programs, the more concern on this board about Kill's recruiting abilities, worries about the outlook for a winning future and the more fodder for spirited discussion on threads like this one until we get more feedback from actual results on the field this season.
Click to expand...

Fair responses, I enjoy reading your posts even if we are not always on the same side of issues.
 

btowngopher said:
I was mostly referring to the Fitzgerald era. Although Barnett and Walker combined to win or share the big10 title 3 times from 1995-2000, I think most gopher fans would take that anyday. Fitzgerald has made 3 straight bowls.
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Given that they were 21-3 in big ten play during the 3 big ten title seasons, looking at the conference record over this period would lead you to believe they are anything but a consistent winner.


Yes they are better than the gophers, but they are not a consistent winner as you suggested.
 

I'd take winning inconsistently over consistently having 3-4 conference wins.

The Gophers were a 10th place team last year. If our recruiting class is less than spectacular, it's about what can be reasonably expected for a 10th place team.
 

MN Kids

I love seeing all the potential in MN this year and it is great to have a new coach and fresh approach to work on getting them in. One thing is the amount of QB's available. These guys are many times high football IQ kids and athletic. From some of the camp notes it looks like Kill and staff are really doing a great job of evaluating these kids at multiple positions.

Kids like this eventually could end up at great WR's, LB's, or TE's.

Is it just me or is this the most informative camp we've had here? GH and other's have been doing a great job of reporting on the notes and what the kids are hearing.
 



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