ESPN: Grand Valley State suspends OC Morris Berger for wanting meal with Adolf Hitler

[stocker08]

Great leaders do great things. Hitler didn’t do great things. Not much more complicated than this.

This. Hitler was able to get people to follow him....but that doesn't mean that he was sane.

Maybe this guy wants his team to rally around a philosophy of no forward passes.

 

[Veritas]

mj - as a general rule, any time you are the only one in a thread holding a certain view, it's probably a good idea to re-examine your thought.

Former two time Democratic presidential candidate Adlie Stenvenson said: "I may not agree with a word you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." That is what free speech means, or should I say meant?

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

This. Hitler was able to get people to follow him....but that doesn't mean that he was sane.

Maybe this guy wants his team to rally around a philosophy of no forward passes.

The running game needs breathing room!

 

[Veritas]

As an aside... what is "leadership" to this guy?

Just getting power a little while?

Killing lots of people?

Driving a nation into the dirt?

To be accurate, Hitler won the 1934 (?) election with a plurality of all votes cast many years before the killing and destruction started. Had he held a free and fair election in 1941 he would have won that election by a landslide, without a doubt. Huge numbers of Germans voted for the guy no matter what they say today. His policies were popular and attracted huge numbers of highly educated people in a highly educated society. How? I think that was the actual, orginal point the OP was making.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Perhaps rather than crucifying the man (for life, as is the fashion) for pretty ill-thought out and dumb commentary it would be smart to, you know, get the transcript of the whole interview for any more nuance or PERHAPS get him to expound on exactly WTF he was talking about. Maybe he keeps digging a hole, or maybe he eloquently explains the finer points of political propaganda/ brainwashing (always a topical discussion). He’s a football coach, not a history professor after all. In a way, a teaching moment for a lot of the kids...

 

[dpodoll68]

Former two time Democratic presidential candidate Adlie Stenvenson said: "I may not agree with a word you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." That is what free speech means, or should I say meant?

lolwut

The correct quote is, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it," and was written by Evelyn Beatrice Hall under the pseudonym S. G. Tallentyre, in her book The Friends of Voltaire. Because the quote appeared in a book about Voltaire, it is often erroneously attributed to Voltaire himself.

Adlie [sic] Stevenson? WTF?

 

[BleedGopher]

Perhaps rather than crucifying the man (for life, as is the fashion) for pretty ill-thought out and dumb commentary it would be smart to, you know, get the transcript of the whole interview for any more nuance or PERHAPS get him to expound on exactly WTF he was talking about. Maybe he keeps digging a hole, or maybe he eloquently explains the finer points of political propaganda/ brainwashing (always a topical discussion). He’s a football coach, not a history professor after all. In a way, a teaching moment for a lot of the kids...

Yes, this is why he was suspended so the University can do exactly this.

Go Gophers!!

 

[MNVCGUY]

Perhaps rather than crucifying the man (for life, as is the fashion) for pretty ill-thought out and dumb commentary it would be smart to, you know, get the transcript of the whole interview for any more nuance or PERHAPS get him to expound on exactly WTF he was talking about. Maybe he keeps digging a hole, or maybe he eloquently explains the finer points of political propaganda/ brainwashing (always a topical discussion). He’s a football coach, not a history professor after all. In a way, a teaching moment for a lot of the kids...

The interviewer certainly didn't do him any favors in this case.

I would assume the school is doing the things you mentioned behind the scenes since he is just suspended at this point and has not been fired.

As has been discussed over the course of this thread, there are reasons why Hitler would be a valid choice as an answer to the question that was asked. But when you call him a great leader it isn't going to go well for you. Hopefully when it is all said and done it will just be a case of poor word choice and everyone can move on. But the school needs to do its due diligence to make sure poor word choice was really all it was.

 

[Schnauzer]

As has been discussed over the course of this thread, there are reasons why Hitler would be a valid choice as an answer to the question that was asked.

I have said throughout this discussion that Hitler would NOT be a valid choice as an answer to the question that was asked.

 

[MNVCGUY]

I have said throughout this discussion that Hitler would NOT be a valid choice as an answer to the question that was asked.

I respectfully disagree. It was a very broad question and Hitler would make for a fascinating historical figure to try and understand. But the coach has to be smarter with his choice of words when discussing one of, if not the most hated men in history.

If you are going to pick someone like Hitler as an answer you better make sure that you make your reasons for doing so very clear. Referring to him as a "great leader" is not going to fly with most people because of the horrible things he was responsible for doing while in power.

 

[Spoofin]

.

I read a book by the director of an NGO that works to help children get an education and get a meal. He had stories about famous people, good and evil and how they were raised. In the book he shared Hitler's childhood. That evil man was horribly abused by his father. One night his dad beat him up, stripped him of his clothes (naked) and threw him out in the German winter. That's just one episode. There was more horror.
The purpose of the book was to share how important caring for children is.
There is no excuse for the evil Hitler did, but his old man was the mentor as a terrorist.
That book gave me clarity about how I intended to raise my children.
Too Small to Ignore, by Wess Stafford. A fantastic book about famous people and the people who raised them. Father's, take your responsibility seriously.

Abusing your kids isn't a good way to raise them. Pretty controversial stance taken by the author there.

 

[Schnauzer]

I respectfully disagree. It was a very broad question and Hitler would make for a fascinating historical figure to try and understand. But the coach has to be smarter with his choice of words when discussing one of, if not the most hated men in history.

If you are going to pick someone like Hitler as an answer you better make sure that you make your reasons for doing so very clear. Referring to him as a "great leader" is not going to fly with most people because of the horrible things he was responsible for doing while in power.

I agree with what you are saying here and technically, one can say a doctor has some doctor skills even if he/she stabs his/her first patient to death trying to treat a wart. I just don't think that doctor would ever be in the discussion of "skilled doctors" and any discussion of their wart skills would be pointless.

Without even getting into the elephant in the room (the Holocaust), Hitler's bad decisions over and over again led his country to devastating defeat. He probably shouldn't be on anyone's list of those exhibiting leadership skills even if he did inspire a few bigots and racists in brew halls.

 

[MennoSota]

.

Abusing your kids isn't a good way to raise them. Pretty controversial stance taken by the author there.

The author shows us both good and bad family relationships so that we can see how very important it is to raise children in a good and supportive environment. The author also shares Martin Luther Kings upbringing and how important his parents were to his future involvement in civil rights and non-violent protest.
In no way does the author support the behavior of Hitler's dad. You seem to have missed the point.

 

[GoldenRodents]

The German armed forces, the Wehrmacht, were not directly associated with the Nazi party in WWII. Think of them as being like our current armed forces - not democrat or republican. There was a lot of dislike among the armed forces toward Hitler, up to and including assassination attempts. Rommel himself died via 'forced suicide' as he was charged with treason. The Nazi's did have their own fighting force too, the SS and although tactically they fought along side Germany's regular armed forces, those regular armed forces were not Nazi's. This is to this day a common mistake - to refer to Germany's WWII army, navy, etc. as "nazis".

Also, I am seeing a lot of comments about Hitler getting so many people to go along with his beliefs. A lot of this "agreement" was part of a sophisticated system of fear, forced nationalism, and all the other things that go along with an authoritarian dictatorship. People were literally afraid to pick up loose change in the streets for fear of it being watched and outed as not loyal to the cause. Yes, there were enthusiastic followers too but in general the "hitler youth" and things like it were mostly filled with people just trying to stay out of trouble.

When the mob gets a whiff of fear they scatter like cockroaches in sunlight.

 

[Spoofin]

The author shows us both good and bad family relationships so that we can see how very important it is to raise children in a good and supportive environment. The author also shares Martin Luther Kings upbringing and how important his parents were to his future involvement in civil rights and non-violent protest.
In no way does the author support the behavior of Hitler's dad. You seem to have missed the point.

I think you missed mine. I never suggested the author supported that. I’m sure it was an interesting read, but to spend time documenting examples to prove the hypothesis that abusing your children has negative long term effects seems rather “well duh” to me. Similar to a study showing that smoking is bad for your health.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

Late to this thread - but -from a strictly historical perspective, it would be fascinating to be able to sit down and talk to Hitler, hear his philosophy first-hand, and try to understand why he did what he did.

That does NOT mean endorsing his actions - simply trying to understand better and put it in historical context.

Was Hitler nuts, or was he a brilliant manipulator of public opinion? How did he get an entire country to follow him into war and genocide? given the chance, I would absolutely want to sit down and talk to the guy - strictly as a historical exercise. Doesn't mean I want to join the Nazi party.

I could say the same thing for Dahmer, Bundy, Gacy and any other notorious figure from history. It would be interesting to hear their own perspective on what they did and why. John Wilkes Booth. Lee Harvey Oswald. (1st question to Oswald - was there a 2nd shooter?)

And - regarding the coach in question - I am getting sick of "cancel culture."

OK, the guy said something you didn't like or disagree with. Does that mean he should be fired, or his life should be ruined? The pendulum has swung too far and we need a correction.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

Late to this thread - but -from a strictly historical perspective, it would be fascinating to be able to sit down and talk to Hitler, hear his philosophy first-hand, and try to understand why he did what he did.

That does NOT mean endorsing his actions - simply trying to understand better and put it in historical context.

Was Hitler nuts, or was he a brilliant manipulator of public opinion? How did he get an entire country to follow him into war and genocide? given the chance, I would absolutely want to sit down and talk to the guy - strictly as a historical exercise. Doesn't mean I want to join the Nazi party.

I could say the same thing for Dahmer, Bundy, Gacy and any other notorious figure from history. It would be interesting to hear their own perspective on what they did and why. John Wilkes Booth. Lee Harvey Oswald. (1st question to Oswald - was there a 2nd shooter?)

And - regarding the coach in question - I am getting sick of "cancel culture."

OK, the guy said something you didn't like or disagree with. Does that mean he should be fired, or his life should be ruined? The pendulum has swung too far and we need a correction.

Is that really the thing here?

I not really sure anyone here has tried to fire this guy because they didn't like it...

I can understand his school investigating and maybe not being confident in his judgment to maybe maybe fire him.

 

[salzie]

I agree with what you are saying here and technically, one can say a doctor has some doctor skills even if he/she stabs his/her first patient to death trying to treat a wart. I just don't think that doctor would ever be in the discussion of "skilled doctors" and any discussion of their wart skills would be pointless.

Without even getting into the elephant in the room (the Holocaust), Hitler's bad decisions over and over again led his country to devastating defeat. He probably shouldn't be on anyone's list of those exhibiting leadership skills even if he did inspire a few bigots and racists in brew halls.

That is true. Hitler made a lot of poor decisions (beyond the evil) that lead to the fall of Germany. Of course his last few years he was taking a lot of cocaine and was high most of the time and surrounded himself with yes men and loyalist.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

That is true. Hitler made a lot of poor decisions (beyond the evil) that lead to the fall of Germany. Of course his last few years he was taking a lot of cocaine and was high most of the time and surrounded himself with yes men and loyalist.

Now there is some leadership!

 

[salzie]

OK, the guy said something you didn't like or disagree with. Does that mean he should be fired, or his life should be ruined? The pendulum has swung too far and we need a correction.

Potentially, yes he should be fired.

No, his life shouldn't be ruined

 

[MennoSota]

I think you missed mine. I never suggested the author supported that. I’m sure it was an interesting read, but to spend time documenting examples to prove the hypothesis that abusing your children has negative long term effects seems rather “well duh” to me. Similar to a study showing that smoking is bad for your health.

Read the book and see if it's dull.

 

[Pompous Elitist]

Without even getting into the elephant in the room (the Holocaust), Hitler's bad decisions over and over again led his country to devastating defeat. He probably shouldn't be on anyone's list of those exhibiting leadership skills even if he did inspire a few bigots and racists in brew halls.

The danger is assuming the bolded. I would argue he should be studied precisely because (and particularly under the the right conditions) it is human nature to be prejudicial, to scapegoat, and justify bad (eg genocidal) behavior as a reaction to another individual or group’s perceived bad behavior or oppression or insert reason XYZ. There are examples everywhere historically and in contemporary world affairs. We even see dangerous attitudes pop up in threads like these occasionally.

 

[salzie]

The danger is assuming the bolded. I would argue he should be studied precisely because (and particularly under the the right conditions) it is human nature to be prejudicial, to scapegoat, and justify bad (eg genocidal) behavior as a reaction to another individual or group’s perceived bad behavior or oppression or insert reason XYZ. There are examples everywhere historically and in contemporary world affairs. We even see dangerous attitudes pop up in threads like these occasionally.

Studied, sure. Admired for his leadership, no.

 

[Veritas]

lolwut

The correct quote is, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it," and was written by Evelyn Beatrice Hall under the pseudonym S. G. Tallentyre, in her book The Friends of Voltaire. Because the quote appeared in a book about Voltaire, it is often erroneously attributed to Voltaire himself.

Adlie [sic] Stevenson? WTF?

Used by Stevenson in his campaign against Eisenhower so it is correctly attributed to him in that context. He did say it. Why is WTF needed by you in this, or any, regard?

 

[Veritas]

I agree with what you are saying here and technically, one can say a doctor has some doctor skills even if he/she stabs his/her first patient to death trying to treat a wart. I just don't think that doctor would ever be in the discussion of "skilled doctors" and any discussion of their wart skills would be pointless.

Without even getting into the elephant in the room (the Holocaust), Hitler's bad decisions over and over again led his country to devastating defeat. He probably shouldn't be on anyone's list of those exhibiting leadership skills even if he did inspire a few bigots and racists in brew halls.

"A few bigots"? He won the election and was thereby Chancelor of Germany, fair and square. This nonsense that he was not hugely popular in Germany by promoting views that were in no material way different than the views of the Democratic Party of America in the late 1930's is dangerous and false. Hitler's greatest acheivement was he made racism into a bad thing, something that it was not in the world in the late 1930's. It was the "good" thing. For example, in this country, you could not sell Ford automobiles unless you sold the Ford company newspaper which regularly featured anti Semetic articles on the front page. Charles Lindburg (sp?) refused to fight against the Nazis' in WWII.

PS I am not Jewish, but I do know my history.

 

[Veritas]

I have said throughout this discussion that Hitler would NOT be a valid choice as an answer to the question that was asked.

Why not? Why does his choice have to please you or anyone?

 

[Veritas]

The danger is assuming the bolded. I would argue he should be studied precisely because (and particularly under the the right conditions) it is human nature to be prejudicial, to scapegoat, and justify bad (eg genocidal) behavior as a reaction to another individual or group’s perceived bad behavior or oppression or insert reason XYZ. There are examples everywhere historically and in contemporary world affairs. We even see dangerous attitudes pop up in threads like these occasionally.

Personally, I find it hard to imagine a thought being dangerous, but then again, I have never been a snowflake when it comes to thoughts or expressions thereof. If it is against the law to yell "Fire" in a movie theater it also not against the law to want to understand what Hitler was thinking and saying.

 

[STPGopher]

The danger is assuming the bolded. I would argue he should be studied precisely because (and particularly under the the right conditions) it is human nature to be prejudicial, to scapegoat, and justify bad (eg genocidal) behavior as a reaction to another individual or group’s perceived bad behavior or oppression or insert reason XYZ. There are examples everywhere historically and in contemporary world affairs. We even see dangerous attitudes pop up in threads like these occasionally.

Studied? Perhaps. Exhibit/ Example of Leadership Skills? No.

 

[Word]

I have never been a snowflake.

Didn't you throw a fit about people standing at a game?

 

[Schnauzer]

The danger is assuming the bolded. I would argue he should be studied precisely because (and particularly under the the right conditions) it is human nature to be prejudicial, to scapegoat, and justify bad (eg genocidal) behavior as a reaction to another individual or group’s perceived bad behavior or oppression or insert reason XYZ. There are examples everywhere historically and in contemporary world affairs. We even see dangerous attitudes pop up in threads like these occasionally.

His bad decisions and poor leadership are a matter of record, and it has been studied. A lot. Certainly enough for even an offensive coordinator to know it doesn't represent good leadership. You make it sound like nobody has gotten around to that yet.

I have to admit I am a bit tired of talking about Hitler today. I may have to move on to go read some more of Talon's misspellings.