Doogie Tweet: Gophers Might Not Have All Their Regulars UPDATED: Croft won't play Sat

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Bob_Loblaw said:
I don't really see what the big argument is about.

Was the decision to name Rhoda 100% on the field related? Possibly but probably not.
Should it be? No.
Do I think Fleck is only punishing Croft because he is now a non-starter? That's a horrible take. No.
Do I blame PJ for fibbing (if it's the case) by saying Rhoda was named starter 100% based on the field? Heck no. We want to give Rhoda and his teammates as much confidence in his play as possible.

So, why are we fighting on this one?
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I think Rhoda earned the job.
Based off of performance, I don't think anyone would be surprised by going with Rhoda.
If Croft played like Rhoda, and Rhoda like Croft, there would be a lot more reason to be skeptical of the naming of the starter.

Maybe Fleck was going to give Rhoda 75% / 25% upcoming and then the Croft deal popped up, so that just aided the 100% Rhoda decision.

Also, it gives your #1 starter more confidence if you tell him he won the job outright, rather than winning it by default.
So whether there is a real difference in what happens, the "white lie" of telling him he earned it (if it is a white lie) is probably better for the team at this point.


I think the assumption 90% of people on here have right now is that Croft messed up, and the way words are painted, if I had to bet, it's drug / alcohol (illegal) behavior. Fleck talks about getting him the help he needs which I would assume would be overcoming addiction. (***THIS IS ALL SPECULATION ON MY BEHALF*** But it seems like the most plausible answer.

I guess I'm subscribing to occam's razor on this.
 

Not sure how a fan site for a team would take an incident like this and some immediately jump to the conclusion that the coach is lying about something when there is no evidence he is lying and he has shown no issue being frank and I've never seen someone be so consistent week to week in what he says and the message he delivers.

This is a fan site for the team and some people here take this situation stir it into a pot and assume that 100+ guys on the team are roaming around campus scared for their life that they may be violating some subjective standard that the coach hasn't clearly communicated to them? Because that's how a coach builds a winning program?

Is it that hard to replace the word spirituality with words like confidence, attitude and outlook? Anyone seen that he makes players do rosaries after a mistake in a game? He isn't the religion police. Belief in yourself, belief in your team seem to be reasonably established prerequisites for success, but we are going to buck that a coach would have the audacity to say he is looking to develop a players spirituality along with their athletic ability? Confidence is faith in something that hasn't happened yet, that's spirituality. Some people derive their confidence/faith from belief in a higher power, some just get it from belief in their own self worth or the combined worth of those around them. Those aren't new or unique concepts.
 

Face The Facts said:
I think Rhoda earned the job.
Based off of performance, I don't think anyone would be surprised by going with Rhoda.
If Croft played like Rhoda, and Rhoda like Croft, there would be a lot more reason to be skeptical of the naming of the starter.

Maybe Fleck was going to give Rhoda 75% / 25% upcoming and then the Croft deal popped up, so that just aided the 100% Rhoda decision.

Also, it gives your #1 starter more confidence if you tell him he won the job outright, rather than winning it by default.
So whether there is a real difference in what happens, the "white lie" of telling him he earned it (if it is a white lie) is probably better for the team at this point.


I think the assumption 90% of people on here have right now is that Croft messed up, and the way words are painted, if I had to bet, it's drug / alcohol (illegal) behavior. Fleck talks about getting him the help he needs which I would assume would be overcoming addiction. (***THIS IS ALL SPECULATION ON MY BEHALF*** But it seems like the most plausible answer.

I guess I'm subscribing to occam's razor on this.
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I can't disagree with you.

I'm just saying that even if Fleck did tell a white lie about it being 100% performance. . . good. He should.
 

LakerFan said:
Not sure how a fan site for a team would take an incident like this and some immediately jump to the conclusion that the coach is lying about something when there is no evidence he is lying and he has shown no issue being frank and I've never seen someone be so consistent week to week in what he says and the message he delivers.

This is a fan site for the team and some people here take this situation stir it into a pot and assume that 100+ guys on the team are roaming around campus scared for their life that they may be violating some subjective standard that the coach hasn't clearly communicated to them? Because that's how a coach builds a winning program?

Is it that hard to replace the word spirituality with words like confidence, attitude and outlook? Anyone seen that he makes players do rosaries after a mistake in a game? He isn't the religion police. Belief in yourself, belief in your team seem to be reasonably established prerequisites for success, but we are going to buck that a coach would have the audacity to say he is looking to develop a players spirituality along with their athletic ability? Confidence is faith in something that hasn't happened yet, that's spirituality. Some people derive their confidence/faith from belief in a higher power, some just get it from belief in their own self worth or the combined worth of those around them. Those aren't new or unique concepts.
Click to expand...

Yeah that whole line of discussion is weird.

Now let's get back to the issue of if PJ like likes us or not!
 



Bob_Loblaw said:
I don't really see what the big argument is about.

Was the decision to name Rhoda 100% on the field related? Possibly but probably not.
Should it be? No.
Do I think Fleck is only punishing Croft because he is now a non-starter? That's a horrible take. No.
Do I blame PJ for fibbing (if it's the case) by saying Rhoda was named starter 100% based on the field? Heck no. We want to give Rhoda and his teammates as much confidence in his play as possible.

So, why are we fighting on this one?
Click to expand...

He absolutely should build up Rhoda's and the fan's confidence. I suppose I could have kept my opinion to myself but what fun would that have been? I didn't think pointing out coachspeak/white lies would be so controversial.

Some of you are a bit too sensitive about all things Mr. Fleck.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
When have I ever said Fleck was failing as a head coach? Never. Never. Never.

I don't agree with everything he says or does. That does not mean I believe he is "failing as a head coach."

As far as expectations being subjective. PF Fleck himself has said that playing time will be affected based on the "four areas" - academically, athletically, socially and spiritually.

Now, try to follow along here: you are a player for a college FB team. The coach says that you will not start, or your playing time is being reduced, because the coach believes you are not meeting his standards for social or spiritual development. How is that not subjective? Show me the clear-cut, delineated guidelines for spiritual development. They don't exist. It is wholly subjective.

Now, this next part is my opinion: I do not believe that a D1 football coach should be making judgments about his players "spiritual development." In my opinion, that falls completely outside the bounds of football. I do not have the right, or the wisdom, to judge anyone else's spiritual development. And you do not have the right, or the wisdom, to judge my spiritual development. Unless you are my minister, priest or rabbi. PJ Fleck is not a minister, priest or rabbi. Stick to offense, defense and special teams. Leave the spirituality to those who are qualified to delve into those areas of the human heart and psyche.
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I see what you are saying. And I agree that it would be difficult to have zero grey areas when talking about something like the "spiritual" aspect. But like you said in your initial post, we don't know what goes on in every meeting in the building. The expectations may be very clear to the players. We don't know either way, so I don't see the reason to question why there are not clear expectations with no evidence to support it.

A football coach becoming involved with the "spiritual" aspect of a players development might seem like an over-reach, but I think that is partially due to the coaching landscape these days. Fair or not, PJ is going to be held accountable by many fans for any mis-steps his players make no matter how minor they may be. D1 football (and really for any D1 sport) coaches make a ton of money, and if they want to keep those high-paying jobs they have to focus on more than the Xs and Os, because all that other stuff can cost them their job if they don't stay on top of it.

For the record, I'm not a huge fan of some of Fleck's schtick. I don't care about boats and oars and "Forget About Me I Love You". Just win football games. But if it works then it's fine with me.
 

Rhoda won the job hands down at OSU. We still need a backup with some seasoning. 2 would be nice.
 



bizzle22 said:
I see what you are saying. And I agree that it would be difficult to have zero grey areas when talking about something like the "spiritual" aspect. But like you said in your initial post, we don't know what goes on in every meeting in the building. The expectations may be very clear to the players. We don't know either way, so I don't see the reason to question why there are not clear expectations with no evidence to support it.

A football coach becoming involved with the "spiritual" aspect of a players development might seem like an over-reach, but I think that is partially due to the coaching landscape these days. Fair or not, PJ is going to be held accountable by many fans for any mis-steps his players make no matter how minor they may be. D1 football (and really for any D1 sport) coaches make a ton of money, and if they want to keep those high-paying jobs they have to focus on more than the Xs and Os, because all that other stuff can cost them their job if they don't stay on top of it.

For the record, I'm not a huge fan of some of Fleck's schtick. I don't care about boats and oars and "Forget About Me I Love You". Just win football games. But if it works then it's fine with me.
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Maybe Fleck was searching for a word, but "spiritual" is the word many young people are now using to describe their beliefs, as in "spiritual, but not religious." I don't see it as code for indoctrinating the team into any particular dogma, but something more in the vein of "we are all part of something bigger" and it's important for the guys to take care of each other both on and off the field.
 

50PoundHead said:
Maybe Fleck was searching for a word, but "spiritual" is the word many young people are now using to describe their beliefs, as in "spiritual, but not religious." I don't see it as code for indoctrinating the team into any particular dogma, but something more in the vein of "we are all part of something bigger" and it's important for the guys to take care of each other both on and off the field.
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Oh I agree with you. I've never taken it to mean anything about following a specific religion. I'm sure it has been explained to the players more than it has to us fans.
 

LakerFan said:
Anyone seen that he makes players do rosaries after a mistake in a game?
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Is that why we haven't been to the Rose Bowl in 50 years? We haven't been doing the rosary?
By the way...what is the rosary? Is it the crossing symbol that Catholics do?
 

Wow, this really is a spectacular dumpster fire, even by GH standards. I blame global warming.

[and the dumpster burns ever, ever so much brighter]
 



I have it on good authority that 25% of each player's day is spent handing out "The Watchtower" door to door in the great Twin Cities area. Be careful slamming the door on Mr. Richardson, I understand he doesn't take kindly to that type of behavior.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
And...I don't believe him.
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You really don't believe that had Croft been an angel off the field that Rhoda wasn't going to be named starter?? I was a little questionable after Buffalo, but I had no doubt in my mind after OSU that Rhoda would be the starter moving forward.

Now I would suspect Croft was going to still play some, which obviously was impacted by this suspension. But it was very obvious Fleck had chosen Rhoda during the OSU game.

It does raise the question of whether Green will be put in for spot drives like Croft was Saturday. I would like to see it myself, assuming he's adequate. Nothing against Rhoda, I just like seeing a couple drives here and there with the back-up just to shake up the D during the game. If it doesn't make sense so be it, I certainly won't be mad if Green doesn't play. But if he's going to be the backup for any amount of time, it'd be nice to get him in the game...
 

Lakeville Goldy said:
You really don't believe that had Croft been an angel off the field that Rhoda wasn't going to be named starter?? I was a little questionable after Buffalo, but I had no doubt in my mind after OSU that Rhoda would be the starter moving forward.

Now I would suspect Croft was going to still play some, which obviously was impacted by this suspension. But it was very obvious Fleck had chosen Rhoda during the OSU game.

It does raise the question of whether Green will be put in for spot drives like Croft was Saturday. I would like to see it myself, assuming he's adequate. Nothing against Rhoda, I just like seeing a couple drives here and there with the back-up just to shake up the D during the game. If it doesn't make sense so be it, I certainly won't be mad if Green doesn't play. But if he's going to be the backup for any amount of time, it'd be nice to get him in the game...
Click to expand...

After the fumble, I believe the die was cast. It was a bad snap, but P.J.'s "the ball is the program" is obviously a mantra he takes as seriously as "row the boat."
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I don't really see what the big argument is about.

Was the decision to name Rhoda 100% on the field related? Possibly but probably not.
Should it be? No.
Do I think Fleck is only punishing Croft because he is now a non-starter? That's a horrible take. No.
Do I blame PJ for fibbing (if it's the case) by saying Rhoda was named starter 100% based on the field? Heck no. We want to give Rhoda and his teammates as much confidence in his play as possible.

So, why are we fighting on this one?
Click to expand...

LakerFan said:
Not sure how a fan site for a team would take an incident like this and some immediately jump to the conclusion that the coach is lying about something when there is no evidence he is lying and he has shown no issue being frank and I've never seen someone be so consistent week to week in what he says and the message he delivers.

This is a fan site for the team and some people here take this situation stir it into a pot and assume that 100+ guys on the team are roaming around campus scared for their life that they may be violating some subjective standard that the coach hasn't clearly communicated to them? Because that's how a coach builds a winning program?

Is it that hard to replace the word spirituality with words like confidence, attitude and outlook? Anyone seen that he makes players do rosaries after a mistake in a game? He isn't the religion police. Belief in yourself, belief in your team seem to be reasonably established prerequisites for success, but we are going to buck that a coach would have the audacity to say he is looking to develop a players spirituality along with their athletic ability? Confidence is faith in something that hasn't happened yet, that's spirituality. Some people derive their confidence/faith from belief in a higher power, some just get it from belief in their own self worth or the combined worth of those around them. Those aren't new or unique concepts.
Click to expand...

A couple of excellent posts. It is a shame we end up spending so much time refuting the unfounded assumptions from a few posters.

Can't say it any better than coach Pitino: "...all the negativity that's in this town sucks"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

50PoundHead said:
After the fumble, I believe the die was cast. It was a bad snap, but P.J.'s "the ball is the program" is obviously a mantra he takes as seriously as "row the boat."
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Agreed.


In his post game conference when PJ noted the reaction to the fumble, yeah it seemed pretty clear that was a big deal to PJ.
 

50PoundHead said:
After the fumble, I believe the die was cast. It was a bad snap, but P.J.'s "the ball is the program" is obviously a mantra he takes as seriously as "row the boat."
Click to expand...

What happens when Conor makes a mistake? (Like the INT in the end zone against Buffalo) He's an amateur athlete and fallible human so it will happen. Does he get the hook then? A QB in particular needs to know he has a coach's general confidence and isn't always staring at PJF every time a pass hits the ground.
 

Lakeville Goldy said:
You really don't believe that had Croft been an angel off the field that Rhoda wasn't going to be named starter?? I was a little questionable after Buffalo, but I had no doubt in my mind after OSU that Rhoda would be the starter moving forward.

Now I would suspect Croft was going to still play some, which obviously was impacted by this suspension. But it was very obvious Fleck had chosen Rhoda during the OSU game.

It does raise the question of whether Green will be put in for spot drives like Croft was Saturday. I would like to see it myself, assuming he's adequate. Nothing against Rhoda, I just like seeing a couple drives here and there with the back-up just to shake up the D during the game. If it doesn't make sense so be it, I certainly won't be mad if Green doesn't play. But if he's going to be the backup for any amount of time, it'd be nice to get him in the game...
Click to expand...

i don't think there was enough of a body of work to say either way. Most learned observers though Croft had the better arm, athleticism, and expected him to win out.

In the two games we've played Rhoda has done well but I wouldn't say it's close to a definitive body of work. These have not been good defenses and WRs have been running free all over the field.

Croft also hasn't been out there enough to draw any definitive conclusions.

To me, the INT was worse than the fumble although I think that's debatable.

In a nutshell I'm reserving judgment on Rhoda '17 until we play some live teams. One game is a data point, two is a line, three is a trend.
 

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alchemy2u said:
A couple of excellent posts. It is a shame we end up spending so much time refuting the unfounded assumptions from a few posters.

Can't say it any better than coach Pitino: "...all the negativity that's in this town sucks"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Why is it a shame to have a discussion? You're rapidly turning into a whinier version of a few other posters. We spend so much time refuting the unfounded homerism of a few posters.

Scientology labels those who question, "suppressive persons".

I would suggest not checking out opinions of Fleck from outside fans. Your head may explode.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
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B]

Why is it a shame to have a discussion? You're rapidly turning into a whinier version of a few other posters. We spend so much time refuting the unfounded homerism of a few posters.

Scientology labels those who question, "suppressive persons".

I would suggest not checking out opinions of Fleck from outside fans. Your head may explode.
Click to expand...


Sorry, but a fan is a homer by definition.
If you don't want to see Gopher homerism, then move on over to the Badger board.
Discussions are what GH is all about. It just gets old seeing EVERY topic morph into a way to bash the coach, AD or the U. Of course, they are not infallible, but they also are not the source of all evil.
We have an exciting new coach that is creating a national brand. We are undefeated and just blew out a P5 opponent on the road. Let enjoy the ride and discuss football.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 


Pompous Elitist said:
[/

B]

Why is it a shame to have a discussion? You're rapidly turning into a whinier version of a few other posters. We spend so much time refuting the unfounded homerism of a few posters.

Scientology labels those who question, "suppressive persons".

I would suggest not checking out opinions of Fleck from outside fans. Your head may explode.
Click to expand...


No problem with the contrarian approach, it stimulates the conversation. Stating you think Fleck told a lie is not contrarian, that falls under bull**** unless you have FACTS to back up a character assassination.
 

Since this thread started as who might or might not play this week, has anyone seen a depth chart yet?
 

alchemy2u said:
Sorry, but a fan is a homer by definition.
If you don't want to see Gopher homerism, then move on over to the Badger board.
Discussions are what GH is all about. It just gets old seeing EVERY topic morph into a way to bash the coach, AD or the U. Of course, they are not infallible, but they also are not the source of all evil.
We have an exciting new coach that is creating a national brand. We are undefeated and just blew out a P5 opponent on the road. Let enjoy the ride and discuss football.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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:rolleyes:

I don't tell people they can't be bootlickers or idolaters. That's the difference. Everyone is free to their opinion.

I enjoy the diverse opinions. You're free to live in whatever reality you've conjured. Don't tell me what I can or can't feel or think.
 

Aaaaaaaanywaaaaay...is there any news on why he's being suspended?
 

Pompous Elitist said:
i don't think there was enough of a body of work to say either way. Most learned observers though Croft had the better arm, athleticism, and expected him to win out.

In the two games we've played Rhoda has done well but I wouldn't say it's close to a definitive body of work. These have not been good defenses and WRs have been running free all over the field.

Croft also hasn't been out there enough to draw any definitive conclusions.

To me, the INT was worse than the fumble although I think that's debatable.

In a nutshell I'm reserving judgment on Rhoda '17 until we play some live teams. One game is a data point, two is a line, three is a trend.
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The fumble gave OSU WAY better field position than the interception gave Buffalo, so view the fumble as the worst mistake.

You also have to factor in the fact that he's said they instruct the QBs to fall on the ball in the case of a bad snap like that, don't try to pick it up. So he also went directly against the training they've been practicing.
 

BroncoRedux said:
No problem with the contrarian approach, it stimulates the conversation. Stating you think Fleck told a lie is not contrarian, that falls under bull**** unless you have FACTS to back up a character assassination.
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Are you for real? Holy ****?

That's hilarious, and unhinged.
 

fmlizard said:
What happens when Conor makes a mistake? (Like the INT in the end zone against Buffalo) He's an amateur athlete and fallible human so it will happen. Does he get the hook then? A QB in particular needs to know he has a coach's general confidence and isn't always staring at PJF every time a pass hits the ground.
Click to expand...

The fumble turnover was a direct result of doing what they have been instructed not to. On a bad snap, you fall on the ball, don't try to pick it up. It also gave OSU way better field position than the interception against Buffalo gave Buffalo.
 

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