Ben Johnson is a Disaster

[TwistingMyMelon]

believe it or not, I think you and I agree on this. and I want to thank you for responding without any personal remarks. It's fine to disagree, and it doesn't have to be disagreeable.

to be clear, I am less positive or optimistic about the Gophers today than I was at the start of the season. mid-season, I thought we were seeing real progress. but the last few weeks, I am seeing what looks like regression.

at this point, I think the ceiling for some of these players is lower than I thought. and that makes it imperative to bring up the overall talent level. cannot afford to have too many warm bodies in a uniform taking up space on the end of the bench.

Assuming all of the starters stay, I'm reasonably optimistic about them next season (certainly more than I was before this season!). Although I think the biggest problem in the latter season has been wearing down, I agree that these five starters taken together are not good enough to make a major breakthrough to 11 or 12 conference wins just by themselves. If they can get two honestly good players who can take over when some of these guys are having a rough night or even start part of the time, that might be enough to do it. I like this team but I don't think they have quite enough juice to get to the next level.

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

In what way did he ride coattails? I believe the roster was gutted.

He did ride Tubby's coattails in part during his first season. Tubby left him with a pretty decent core. To his credit, he was able to pick up some additional players who helped (particularly Mathieu) and was able to get Walker into playing shape.

 

[Gopherbbdude]

...still refusing to click on this thread

 

[skiumah1]

You can't fire someone on the anticipation that he might fail in the future. Well, a program like ours couldn't anyway unless they were willing to pay a lot more than we have in recent years. You have to wait until a season where he does fail. He didn't fail this season (his team improved significantly) and firing him after two years would have been too soon.

He's done enough to merit another season. Live with it and see what happens next season.

I hear ya on this point - But Year 3, 9-11 in a down Big 10 and possibly no postseason tournament?

I don't like it. Year 3 should be near peaking. It's not the same as it was 10-20 years ago.

I understand a 4th year, but it's getting harder once again to be optimistic.

 

[tjgopher]

Even if you want to discount the NET, there are still a bunch of other metrics that rate Pitino's final team as better. Whether you're using resume metrics or predictive metrics. Even throwing strength of schedule aside, that team performed better. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't good and Pitino rightfully was fired, but I do think Pitino's final team was better.

I would add the final Pitino team was well on its way to making the NCAA Tournament before Liam Robbins and Gabe Kalscheur suffered season-ending injuries. After that, the team went 1-8 in the final nine games. Before that, they were 13-7 with wins over #4 Iowa, #7 Michigan, #17 Michigan State, #24 Purdue, and #25 Ohio State and had losses to six ranked teams. At one point, it was ranked as high as 16th and even better in NET.

Robbins later went on to be SEC Defensive Player of the Year, Kalscheur went on to make an all-Big 12 team.

That team also had Marcus Carr, an all-Big Ten and all-Big 12 guard (1st team), who had the ability win games on his own. Jamal Mashburn Jr was the sixth man on that team. He would later be all-MWC.

I have really enjoyed this year's Gopher team, but it has no where near the resume the final Pitino team did pre-injury.

 

[Gopheritnow]

It’s a minor point but someone above in the thicket of responses on this post mentioned ceiling. I think Carrington has not yet come close to reaching his. He is a physical defending guard who came out of high school with a good 3 ball reputation. Last year that did not show up, but it did this year after he came back from his leave. While Mitchell has grown on me, his limits of offense to shooting g 3’s hurts. He plays hard, but he is simply a little slow and undersized. I could see Carrington replacing him as a starter, depending on roster additions this year.

 

[GopherBlood777]

I would add the final Pitino team was well on its way to making the NCAA Tournament before Liam Robbins and Gabe Kalscheur suffered season-ending injuries. After that, the team went 1-8 in the final nine games. Before that, they were 13-7 with wins over #4 Iowa, #7 Michigan, #17 Michigan State, #24 Purdue, and #25 Ohio State and had losses to six ranked teams. At one point, it was ranked as high as 16th and even better in NET.

Robbins later went on to be SEC Defensive Player of the Year, Kalscheur went on to make an all-Big 12 team.

That team also had Marcus Carr, an all-Big Ten and all-Big 12 guard (1st team), who had the ability win games on his own. Jamal Mashburn Jr was the sixth man on that team. He would later be all-MWC.

I have really enjoyed this year's Gopher team, but it has no where near the resume the final Pitino team did pre-injury.

Very fun in the first half of that year, but that season was over when they lost the MD game at home and looked terrible doing so coming off a big win (against MI I think?). MD was not good that year and we were clear favorites entering that game. For whatever reason they were not the same afterward. The injuries did not help but that team was done already before the lack of depth inevitably put a fork a in it. The only reason Pitino is even being brought up because Ben has not even managed to really eclipse that last team of his despite winning more overall game this year. As mentioned, he had the Gophers ranked in the top 25 at one point and beat several ranked teams that year. Ben has NEVER beaten a ranked team and has NEVER been ranked in 3 seasons while Richard managed to do it in a year he was fired for. GH was nearly 100% unified in wanting Richard fired and then the completely unexpected happened. Hence the title of this thread.

 

[tjgopher]

Very fun in the first half of that year, but that season was over when they lost the MD game at home and looked terrible doing so coming off a big win (against MI I think?). MD was not good that year and we were clear favorites entering that game. For whatever reason they were not the same afterward. The injuries did not help but that team was done already before the lack of depth inevitably put a fork a in it.

I'm not totally sold on that. AFTER that home Maryland loss, the Gophers still killed Nebraska and then beat #24 Purdue, seemingly resurrecting the season. Robbins hurt his ankle in that Purdue win. Then, they lost at Maryland, Gabe got hurt in practice and they were done at that point, finishing 1-8. Pitino gave up on the season and that was that. I will add, that Maryland team, was an NCAA tourney team, so they were better than "not good."

The Gophers were definitely making the NCAA without the injuries, in my humble opinion. They had wins over a #1 seed Michigan, a #2 seed Ohio State, a #2 seed Iowa, and a #4 seed Purdue. Also had a win over tourney team Michigan State. The resume was really good.

They were likely going to eke out enough wins with a healthy roster to get into the field. Robbins was a game-changer on certain nights. They lost to Rutgers, Northwestern, Penn State and Nebraska after the injuries.

But, the year slid so sideways after that and the fanbase was definitely worn out by the yearly meltdowns, it was clear Pitino was going to be done.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Wins over ranked teams, those were fun times.

 

[Bad Gopher]

I'm not totally sold on that. AFTER that home Maryland loss, the Gophers still killed Nebraska and then beat #24 Purdue, seemingly resurrecting the season. Robbins hurt his ankle in that Purdue win. Then, they lost at Maryland, Gabe got hurt in practice and they were done at that point, finishing 1-8. Pitino gave up on the season and that was that. I will add, that Maryland team, was an NCAA tourney team, so they better than "not good."

The Gophers were definitely making the NCAA without the injuries, in my humble opinion. They had wins over a #1 seed Michigan, a #2 seed Ohio State, a #2 seed Iowa, and a #4 seed Purdue. Also had a win over tourney team Michigan State. The resume was really good.

They were likely going to eke out enough wins with a healthy roster to get into the field. Robbins was a game-changer on certain nights. They lost to Rutgers, Northwestern, Penn State and Nebraska after the injuries.

But, the year slid so sideways after that and the fanbase was definitely worn out by the yearly meltdowns, it was clear Pitino was going to be done.

Very much like in 1991, when both Lynch and Bond got hurt, if I remember that right. It was all over after that.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

He did ride Tubby's coattails in part during his first season. Tubby left him with a pretty decent core. To his credit, he was able to pick up some additional players who helped (particularly Mathieu) and was able to get Walker into playing shape.

He definitely had a decent core. One of my favorite gopherhole streams of logic was defending Pitinos historical bad year 3 by arguing that he was unlucky to have been left with the number of serviceable veterans that he was because that forced him to try to succeed in year 1. If a radio personality had repeated that logic, would have been a contender in Common Man's preposterous statement tournament.

 

[Bad Gopher]

He definitely had a decent core. One of my favorite gopherhole streams of logic was defending Pitinos historical bad year 3 by arguing that he was unlucky to have been left with the number of serviceable veterans that he was because that forced him to try to succeed in year 1. If a radio personality had repeated that logic, would have been a contender in Common Man's preposterous statement tournament.

Good framing

 

[stocker08]

Which is fine for you to believe that, but your criteria for that was because of winning more league games(and games in general even though we did play 4 more), which is what I took issue with, because I do think the league is down this year compared to what it has been. On top of it we only played Purdue, Illinois and Wisconsin once.

Even if you want to discount the NET, there are still a bunch of other metrics that rate Pitino's final team as better. Whether you're using resume metrics or predictive metrics. Even throwing strength of schedule aside, that team performed better. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't good and Pitino rightfully was fired, but I do think Pitino's final team was better. They just performed better and had better wins. If this team can beat MSU and then Purdue, I'll revisit my stance and most likely change my opinion. So stay tuned.

This year's team won more games. Went 5-0 against the weakling Wednesday teams. Pitino's final team won more games against overrated teams....and lost to every bottom team in the conference. Evidence has already been shown that the Big Ten was also way overrated that year.

 

[Gophers7633]

This year's team won more games. Went 5-0 against the weakling Wednesday teams. Pitino's final team won more games against overrated teams....and lost to every bottom team in the conference. Evidence has already been shown that the Big Ten was also way overrated that year.

Okay. So you think this year's B1G schedule was tougher? Good to know.

 

[WindyCityGopher]

I am reading that you guys were big Pitino supporters and am too lazy to go back and look. Is that true?

No, he was mediocre at best and his firing was 100% justified. But Ben can only imagine that level of success. That’s the problem.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

No, he was mediocre at best and his firing was 100% justified. But Ben can only imagine that level of success. That’s the problem.

But WindyCity, many of the posters on here are perfectly happy with mediocrity, it’s just hard for them to face the facts so they come up with their own narrative to feel better.

 

[SHGopher]

So - let's try this again. I'm getting beat up for an earlier post. in retrospect, I could have worded that better. so let's try again. I will try to be more plain about explaining my point of view.

--many people think the Gophers should be doing better

--there are multiple ways to do better, but the two main ones are - get a different coach, or get better players.

--ASSUMING that Ben Johnson will NOT be fired after this season, then in order for the Gophers to do better With The Same Coach, then they need better players - wherever they come from.

--so my essential point is that - in order to keep his job- Johnson needs to bring in more talent and better talent.

--Yes, other teams have done well with mid-major players. but to equal or pass those teams in the standings, then MN needs to bring in players of that level or better. MN needs better players - wherever they come from - if they want to move up in the standings. the players on the current roster have some talent, but IMHO - not enough talent. they need more talent. they need better players. That is what I was trying to say. If Johnson can bring in better players, he has a chance to keep his job. If Johnson cannot bring in better players, then he will not keep his job.

Maybe. They're spread thin too, depth.

Let's imagine Christie steps up big next season. Consistency. Imagine a shooter like that. They don't need to go get that. <--*--> Don't need to go get that.

Maybe the first priority is to keep what they got. Minnesota realistically isn't an NIL monster.

It's a good roster. Hold your cards. Have to project Payne, Carrington, and Mitchell to all be better.


Wonder if CBJ could land one more guy via portal.

The roster building has been good.


We'll soon see what happens in the B1G tournament.

 

[billytwoshoes]

The hard truth is that Coyle kind of set Ben up for failure in year one. Obviously Ben applied and knew what he was getting into, but bringing in a first time head coach the first year of the portal madness with NIL was always going to be tough.

Not saying we have to ignore year one when discussing Ben's future, but definitely important to add to the calculus. With that said, this is still a Big Ten job and the expectations should be higher. Year two was dismal. This year was good for growth and hopefully it translates to more NIL support and the continuity results in wins, but I dont think anyone would be opposed to a change if next year falls apart.
My question though - that what is this boards expectation for Big Ten wins per season? as seen most years, 500 in conference is a pretty decent record.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

The hard truth is that Coyle kind of set Ben up for failure in year one. Obviously Ben applied and knew what he was getting into, but bringing in a first time head coach the first year of the portal madness with NIL was always going to be tough.

Not saying we have to ignore year one when discussing Ben's future, but definitely important to add to the calculus. With that said, this is still a Big Ten job and the expectations should be higher. Year two was dismal. This year was good for growth and hopefully it translates to more NIL support and the continuity results in wins, but I dont think anyone would be opposed to a change if next year falls apart.
My question though - that what is this boards expectation for Big Ten wins per season? as seen most years, 500 in conference is a pretty decent record.

Maybe part of Ben's pitch for the job was who he could bring in from the portal with his MN connections? Part of that being Garcia before he went to UNC.

As far as expectations, Big Ten wins isn't what matters most right now. Making the NCAA tournament every year matters more, once that happens consistently, then we can worry more about B1G wins.

 

[RockChalk]

Wonder if CBJ could land one more guy via portal.

The roster building has been good.

Is Ben done for the year regarding HS recruiting for next year? 2 kids coming in? Or does he have another one or two he is looking to bring in?

 

[CPTMidnight]

No, he was mediocre at best and his firing was 100% justified. But Ben can only imagine that level of success. That’s the problem.

You know this is a fire Coyle back/forth within this thread, right? I made my point and you guys are saying it is far worse.

Lemme guess, it's bad but you guys think Coyle should still stay...

 

[BarnBurner]

Maybe part of Ben's pitch for the job was who he could bring in from the portal with his MN connections? Part of that being Garcia before he went to UNC.

As far as expectations, Big Ten wins isn't what matters most right now. Making the NCAA tournament every year matters more, once that happens consistently, then we can worry more about B1G wins.

"Making the NCAA tournament every year matters more, once that happens consistently, then we can worry more about B1G wins."

 

[gophereric30]

9 wins are 9 wins but let's not pretend like 9 wins in an extremely down year with 7 of those wins against bottom to mid tier opponents is impressive.

The goal here should always be to make the tournament, Ben and staff don't get a pass on 7 win improvement when they shouldn't have been that bad last year to begin with.

I agree he won't be fired, but disagree on the fact that he should be, we were blown out...by Northwestern- a sentence you would never hear under previous two regimes

Yes we were blown out by Northwestern by 24. It never would've happened under the last 2 regimes? Pitino was 6-8 against Northwestern and got beat 3 times by 20 or more to Northwestern!

 

[SHGopher]

Is Ben done for the year regarding HS recruiting for next year? 2 kids coming in? Or does he have another one or two he is looking to bring in?

I get your point. CBJ didn't haul in a top-ranked class for next season. Is there one more player coming?

Another way to look at it: Do the Gophers have the budget for more? They already got Christie from Illinois to come here (upper Midwest but not MN). He's a hot prospect. Maybe keep what they got.

PG Asuma may be the last piece in the budget.

Garcia was a big get, luring him from UNC, basketball. Can they keep him?

People are wondering if the Prophet Isiaah Hawkins is a proven NIL prospect, a veteran PG who makes everyone else better. Can they keep him?

Believe it or not, I'm not strongly in the pro or con CBJ group. After the Ohio State game, I kinda went after the critics for a good reason. It was the peak of all the goodness. Ohio State was a phenomenal game to be at. I had a blast!

That Michigan State game on Peacock was electric. Leading Purdue at half was great basketball. Payne putting on a show against Rutgers, destroying Iowa before the collapse, playing even with Wisconsin...

Who is this new Gophers team?

Hawk put up record numbers. Then the gunfight with Illinois...





It's a different looking team than last season.

The critics have their facts: no big win, no tournament. Roster building is nice, but show us the payoff. No payoff, no payoff. And that raises more controvercy.

CBJ has that big win opportunity before him right now: Round one of B1G - T.

Right now it feels different than a month ago. Let's see what happens Thursday.

247Sports ranks Gophers commit Isaac Asuma the No. 9 point guard in 2024 class - Sports Illustrated Minnesota Gophers News, Analysis and More

He ranks as the No. 3 recruit in the state of Minnesota.

www.si.com

 

[MNVCGUY]

Is Ben done for the year regarding HS recruiting for next year? 2 kids coming in? Or does he have another one or two he is looking to bring in?

As it stands right now there is limited space for high school recruits heading into next year so would think he is done with high school recruiting for this cycle.

 

[MonikerSchmoniker45]

I get your point. CBJ didn't haul in a top-ranked class for next season. Is there one more player coming?

Another way to look at it: Do the Gophers have the budget for more? They already got Christie from Illinois to come here (upper Midwest but not MN). He's a hot prospect. Maybe keep what they got.

PG Asuma may be the last piece in the budget.

Garcia was a big get, luring him from UNC, basketball. Can they keep him?

People are wondering if the Prophet Isiaah Hawkins is a proven NIL prospect, a veteran PG who makes everyone else better. Can they keep him?

Believe it or not, I'm not strongly in the pro or con CBJ group. After the Ohio State game, I kinda went after the critics for a good reason. It was the peak of all the goodness. Ohio State was a phenomenal game to be at. I had a blast!

That Michigan State game on Peacock was electric. Leading Purdue at half was great basketball. Payne putting on a show against Rutgers, destroying Iowa before the collapse, playing even with Wisconsin...

Who is this new Gophers team?

Hawk put up record numbers. Then the gunfight with Illinois...


View attachment 30542


It's a different looking team than last season.

The critics have their facts: no big win, no tournament. Roster building is nice, but show us the payoff. No payoff, no payoff. And that raises more controvercy.

CBJ has that big win opportunity before him right now: Round one of B1G - T.

Right now it feels different than a month ago. Let's see what happens Thursday.

247Sports ranks Gophers commit Isaac Asuma the No. 9 point guard in 2024 class - Sports Illustrated Minnesota Gophers News, Analysis and More

He ranks as the No. 3 recruit in the state of Minnesota.

www.si.com

Was Garcia "lured" from UNC? I thought he had family issues that brought him home?

 

[SHGopher]

Was Garcia "lured" from UNC? I thought he had family issues that brought him home?

Did he get NIL?

 

[Scottsdale Gopher]

It feels to me that Coyle has planted the seeds of expectations for next year with his "preseason top 25" comments. This is a public statement that the program is improving and gives him an opening to make a move next year during the season rather than at or near season's end. On the latter point, I believe that if there is a change next year, Coyle's best shot at landing someone exciting will be to act first.

I know that most here don't hold Coyle in high esteem, but I believe he was very intentional with his comments in this case and they will serve him regardless of how next season pans out.

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

Is Ben done for the year regarding HS recruiting for next year? 2 kids coming in? Or does he have another one or two he is looking to bring in?

I would guess that he is done with high school/prep players unless someone surprisingly good falls into his lap (like a decommit). Next year will be the last year (mostly) for 5th year players. In that environment, a team should try to stay a little "old." Looking through the rosters in the conference, I believe Minnesota was the only team not to have a true 5th year player (I realize Fox is old but he didn't play four complete years prior to this one). Some conference teams have three or four of these players.

If we have the spaces for two quality transfers, johnson definitely should get them. I would say that one 5th year player and one younger transfer player would be ideal. If our current starters stay put, we're going to lose at least three (or even four if Christie does well enough to make the jump) next season so Johnson should want to have at least a handful of holdovers remaining.

 

[MonikerSchmoniker45]

Did he get NIL?

Probably. You think that's why he came here?