Ben Johnson is a Disaster

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Johnnyboy18 said:
If all those teams played in the same conference and all of them got bounced by inferior teams (based on metrics), absolutely they would be.
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That makes no sense to me, but to each their own. So do you just not have any opinions on teams until after the tournament? You didn't think Purdue was a great team than last year?
 

Gophers7633 said:
That makes no sense to me, but to each their own. So do you just not have any opinions on teams until after the tournament? You didn't think Purdue was a great team than last year?
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That's one team. It was literally the entire conference in 2021. Go look at Illinois who ranked a top 5 team by every metric that year. They played 6 out of conference games and went 4-2 including a loss to Missouri team who went 8-8 in the SEC. They didn't beat anyone out of conference and proceeded to get exposed in the tournament.
 

So - let's try this again. I'm getting beat up for an earlier post. in retrospect, I could have worded that better. so let's try again. I will try to be more plain about explaining my point of view.

--many people think the Gophers should be doing better

--there are multiple ways to do better, but the two main ones are - get a different coach, or get better players.

--ASSUMING that Ben Johnson will NOT be fired after this season, then in order for the Gophers to do better With The Same Coach, then they need better players - wherever they come from.

--so my essential point is that - in order to keep his job- Johnson needs to bring in more talent and better talent.

--Yes, other teams have done well with mid-major players. but to equal or pass those teams in the standings, then MN needs to bring in players of that level or better. MN needs better players - wherever they come from - if they want to move up in the standings. the players on the current roster have some talent, but IMHO - not enough talent. they need more talent. they need better players. That is what I was trying to say. If Johnson can bring in better players, he has a chance to keep his job. If Johnson cannot bring in better players, then he will not keep his job.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
That's one team. It was literally the entire conference in 2021. Go look at Illinois who ranked a top 5 team by every metric that year. They played 6 out of conference games and went 4-2 including a loss to Missouri team who went 8-8 in the SEC. They didn't beat anyone out of conference and proceeded to get exposed in the tournament.
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So they were exposed, but what about Rutgers and MD, who outperformed their seed line? Are you able to answer if you think that year's Iowa team is better than this year's Nebraska team? Or do you need to wait and see what they do in the tournament?
 

stocker08 said:
Pitino rode Tubby's coattails to a couple tournaments. He had eight years and basically only managed to go backwards. It was time to move on.....especially considering that his last few classes were full of players outside of a couple that weren't Big Ten caliber.

Hilarious to see you defending Pitino here. Complete revisionist history....as the general concensus was that he had to go.
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Pitino made the tournament in his 4th and 6th seasons. How exactly is that riding Tubby's coattails?

And I am not defending Pitino. He would have been gone after year 3, but got saved by the U not having a permanent AD. Then he would have been gone after 2020 but got saved by Covid. It was long past time for him to go by the time he was actually fired. That doesn't mean we have to drag things on with a coach in way over his head.
 


Gophers7633 said:
So they were exposed, but what about Rutgers and MD, who outperformed their seed line? Are you able to answer if you think that year's Iowa team is better than this year's Nebraska team? Or do you need to wait and see what they do in the tournament?
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Why is that relevant who was better? College basketball as a whole isn't the same, there's literally 0 point to compare teams from different years.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Why is that relevant who was better? College basketball as a whole isn't the same, there's literally 0 point to compare teams from different years.
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Because you and @stocker08 seem to think our Big Ten schedule was tougher this year than Pitino's last year. I'm just comparing two teams that finished 3rd in the B1G in these respective years.
 

Gophers7633 said:
Because you and @stocker08 seem to think our Big Ten schedule was tougher this year than Pitino's last year. I'm just comparing two teams that finished 3rd in the B1G in these respective years.
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I'm arguing the B1G was overrated in 2021 and it overrated the conferences metric as a whole as a result. Which it was and did.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
I'm arguing the B1G was overrated in 2021 and it overrated the conferences metric as a whole as a result. Which it was and did.
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Okay, so you think our Big Ten schedule was easier this year than in 2021? That's been my point the entire time. I only provided all these metrics to support my opinion.
 



Gophers7633 said:
Okay, so you think our Big Ten schedule was easier this year than in 2021? That's been my point the entire time. I only provided all these metrics to support my opinion.
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You're arguing that the conference was a juggernaut in 2021 and it very clearly wasn't.
 


Gophers7633 said:
I never said that. I'm arguing our conference schedule was tougher that year than this year. That's it. I'd be curious what your opinion would be on that?
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Yes and you point to Q1 games as your proof. Q1 games because the conference was overrated as a whole which inflates everyone's metrics.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Yes and you point to Q1 games as your proof. Q1 games because the conference was overrated as a whole which inflates everyone's metrics.
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Okay, then forget about the metrics. The 2021 team had 15 conference games against tournament teams. This team has 9(assuming MSU gets in). Do you think this team had a tougher conference schedule?
 




Gophers7633 said:
Okay, then forget about the metrics. The 2021 team had 15 conference games against tournament teams. This team has 9(assuming MSU gets in). Do you think this team had a tougher conference schedule?
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9 tournament teams because the conference was overrated as a whole.
 


Gophers7633 said:
So, you don't think MD and Rutgers deserved to get in? It's funny you can't even answer the question. If you think this year's team played a tougher conference schedule, just admit it.
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I'm sticking to my point which you refuse to admit.
 


Gophers7633 said:
Okay, so was Purdue massively overrated last year? Do you think this year's Nebraska team is better than 2021 Iowa?
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See below.

Johnnyboy18 said:
Why do you think it's impossible for a conference that had one team make it to the sweet 16 in the tournament and played limited out of conference games was overrated?
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Gophers7633 said:
I think making declarative statements based on a single game elimination tournament is extremely short-sighted. You're basically throwing out 30+ games of data, and using one game to come to your conclusion. Upsets happen. Were Purdue, Arizona, Kansas, Alabama and Marquette overrated last year as a collective unit? I'd say no, but maybe you think they were?
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But it wasn't a single game. It was a combination of nine teams all generally underperforming. A few of which were considered and ranked as some of the best teams in the nation.....yet fell to teams that were huge underdogs. Michigan was the only team that even came close to performing....and even they underperformed their #1 seed.

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Pitino had all of his own players both times he went to the NCAA tournament. Talk about revisionist history....
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My error. I misread the bolded part:

"Pitino went to the NCAA tournament 2 of the first 3 years he worked under Coyle"

Not sure why it matters that he was working under Coyle for this qualifier.
 

howeda7 said:
Pitino made the tournament in his 4th and 6th seasons. How exactly is that riding Tubby's coattails?

And I am not defending Pitino. He would have been gone after year 3, but got saved by the U not having a permanent AD. Then he would have been gone after 2020 but got saved by Covid. It was long past time for him to go by the time he was actually fired. That doesn't mean we have to drag things on with a coach in way over his head.
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I misread GWGs post.
 

Gophers7633 said:
Because you and @stocker08 seem to think our Big Ten schedule was tougher this year than Pitino's last year. I'm just comparing two teams that finished 3rd in the B1G in these respective years.
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Never said that the conference is better this year. I've stated that I believe that this year's team was at least as good as Pitino's final team. Probably better.

Johnnyboy18 said:
I'm arguing the B1G was overrated in 2021 and it overrated the conferences metric as a whole as a result. Which it was and did.
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Johnnyboy18 said:
Yes and you point to Q1 games as your proof. Q1 games because the conference was overrated as a whole which inflates everyone's metrics.
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Exactly. My whole point is that the metrics like NET gave the Gophers wins a lot of weight even though they only won six Big Ten games. Using those inflated numbers to draw a line in the sand and say that it's a fact that Pitino's final team was better than this year's team is silly. It's nowhere near a fact.
 


stocker08 said:
Never said that the conference is better this year. I've stated that I believe that this year's team was at least as good as Pitino's final team. Probably better.




Exactly. My whole point is that the metrics like NET gave the Gophers wins a lot of weight even though they only won six Big Ten games. Using those inflated numbers to draw a line in the sand and say that it's a fact that Pitino's final team was better than this year's team is silly. It's nowhere near a fact.
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Which is fine for you to believe that, but your criteria for that was because of winning more league games(and games in general even though we did play 4 more), which is what I took issue with, because I do think the league is down this year compared to what it has been. On top of it we only played Purdue, Illinois and Wisconsin once.

Even if you want to discount the NET, there are still a bunch of other metrics that rate Pitino's final team as better. Whether you're using resume metrics or predictive metrics. Even throwing strength of schedule aside, that team performed better. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't good and Pitino rightfully was fired, but I do think Pitino's final team was better. They just performed better and had better wins. If this team can beat MSU and then Purdue, I'll revisit my stance and most likely change my opinion. So stay tuned.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
they need more talent. they need better players.
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They do need more talent but it's more of a depth of talent issue. The starting five has been pretty decent overall but beyond that there is very little besides Fox lately. Carrington is all right as a reserve but they need to have at least one or two more honestly "good" players. The starting five has its off nights but there isn't much behind them in terms of scoring potential and the starters have played so many minutes over the last half of the season that they've worn down.

Some of these players likely will be better next season (assuming they stay) just due to maturity. As good as Christie was for a freshman, he hit a freshman wall in two stretches this season. I expect the other two guards to be better next year. Even someone like Mitchell, who has been maligned relatively frequently here, has seemed better to me than Kalscheur or McBrayer were during the majority of their time here. Still, Johnson should try to get at least one or two quality players who can provide significant minutes.
 


TwistingMyMelon said:
They do need more talent but it's more of a depth of talent issue. The starting five has been pretty decent overall but beyond that there is very little besides Fox lately. Carrington is all right as a reserve but they need to have at least one or two more honestly "good" players. The starting five has its off nights but there isn't much behind them in terms of scoring potential and the starters have played so many minutes over the last half of the season that they've worn down.

Some of these players likely will be better next season (assuming they stay) just due to maturity. As good as Christie was for a freshman, he hit a freshman wall in two stretches this season. I expect the other two guards to be better next year. Even someone like Mitchell, who has been maligned relatively frequently here, has seemed better to me than Kalscheur or McBrayer were during the majority of their time here. Still, Johnson should try to get at least one or two quality players who can provide significant minutes.
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believe it or not, I think you and I agree on this. and I want to thank you for responding without any personal remarks. It's fine to disagree, and it doesn't have to be disagreeable.

to be clear, I am less positive or optimistic about the Gophers today than I was at the start of the season. mid-season, I thought we were seeing real progress. but the last few weeks, I am seeing what looks like regression.

at this point, I think the ceiling for some of these players is lower than I thought. and that makes it imperative to bring up the overall talent level. cannot afford to have too many warm bodies in a uniform taking up space on the end of the bench.
 

007gopherfan said:
If the Gophers could talk with other teams and form a new conference that contains:

Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Northwestern, Nebraska, Iowa State, Northern Iowa, Marquette, Drake and Creighton.....that would be very competitive 10 team conference, travel expense friendly, better for student athletes and more chances for all those teams at titles, recruiting, fan experiences, tourny trips and much more. Plus it would allow hockey to get the hockey to form a conference with Minnesota, North Dakota, Bemidji, Duluth, St. Cloud, Augustana, St. Thomas, Wisconsin, Mankato, Nebraska Omaha.

The NCAA needs to step up and take control before this all gets ugly. Student athletes will be traveling more than professional sports teams.
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The NCAA has no power at this point - that 🐎 has left the barn
 

Crazy thought to those debating the 23-24 big ten against the 20-21 big ten......maybe just agree to disagree because it is very very very very painfully clear that nothing either side can say is going to convince the other side they are wrong. :)
 

short ornery norwegian said:
believe it or not, I think you and I agree on this. and I want to thank you for responding without any personal remarks. It's fine to disagree, and it doesn't have to be disagreeable.

to be clear, I am less positive or optimistic about the Gophers today than I was at the start of the season. mid-season, I thought we were seeing real progress. but the last few weeks, I am seeing what looks like regression.

at this point, I think the ceiling for some of these players is lower than I thought. and that makes it imperative to bring up the overall talent level. cannot afford to have too many warm bodies in a uniform taking up space on the end of the bench.
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In regards to ceiling - there probably isn't a ton of growth left for Garcia, Mitchell, and Hawkins but Payne and Christie still have a ton of room for growth and improvement.

Definitely tougher to predict what will happen with guys like Carrington, JOJ and Betts.

For me, this last stretch has really emphasized the need for one more starter level player if everyone returns. Either a bigger shooting guard or a wing. If they could add one more starter to the mix of Hawkins, Christie, Payne and Garcia with Mitchell and Asuma as first 2 off the bench we could really have something. Depending on what happens with guys like Fox, JOJ, Betts, would probably need to add some front court depth from the portal but wouldn't necessarily need to find someone who could log heavy minutes.

Really feels like the team is one key player away from truly competing. But that is with everyone back next year, if some guys leave then the number of needed pieces obviously goes up along with that.
 

stocker08 said:
Pitino rode Tubby's coattails to a couple tournaments. He had eight years and basically only managed to go backwards. It was time to move on.....especially considering that his last few classes were full of players outside of a couple that weren't Big Ten caliber.

Hilarious to see you defending Pitino here. Complete revisionist history....as the general concensus was that he had to go.
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In what way did he ride coattails? I believe the roster was gutted.
 

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