Ben Johnson is a Disaster

[Gophers7633]

You said "the program is worse off than when he took over, that's a fact and not arguable". That isn't a fact....it's an opinion. And it's an INCORRECT opinion. It's almost guaranteed that had he been given another year....his 2021 team would have been worse. Carr wasn't coming back.

Zero question.....roster versus roster.....I'd take Johnson's roster going into next season than Pitino's. Pitino's team was about to implode and Johnson's is improving and should be very good next year.

Huh? By EVERY metric, we are in a worse spot today than we were when Pitino got fired. Those are the facts. How are those not facts? We just had three seasons in a row worse than the season that got Pitino fired, based on those very same metrics.

We'll never know what Pitino's roster would have looked like because he was rightfully fired.

 

[stocker08]

Huh? By EVERY metric, we are in a worse spot today than we were when Pitino got fired. Those are the facts. How are those not facts? We just had three seasons in a row worse than the season that got Pitino fired, based on those very same metrics.

We'll never know what Pitino's roster would have looked like because he was rightfully fired.

False. You said that the program is in a worse place. That's wrong. Pitino's program was in a free fall while Johnson's program is rising.

That doesn't even take into consideration that this team is better than Pitino's last team. Carr had some super human efforts that netted that team some big wins.....but as a whole.....that team was not very good. Lost their last seven regular season games....most of which were against the BOTTOM of the Big Ten. Didn't win a single road game all year.

We're in a much better place than at the end of Pitino's final year.

 

[Gophers7633]

False. You said that the program is in a worse place. That's wrong. Pitino's program was in a free fall while Johnson's program is rising.

That doesn't even take into consideration that this team is better than Pitino's last team. Carr had some super human efforts that netted that team some big wins.....but as a whole.....that team was not very good. Lost their last seven regular season games....most of which were against the BOTTOM of the Big Ten. Didn't win a single road game all year.

We're in a much better place than at the end of Pitino's final year.

But we are. Which is backed by all kinds of data.

How is this team better than Pitino's last team? If you could provide any data to back that up, I'll listen. If you're saying Pitino's last team wasn't very good, how would you classify this team?

Even if we return everybody, it'll still be a tall task to make the tournament.

 

[stocker08]

But we are. Which is backed by all kinds of data.

How is this team better than Pitino's last team? If you could provide any data to back that up, I'll listen. If you're saying Pitino's last team wasn't very good, how would you classify this team?

Even if we return everybody, it'll still be a tall task to make the tournament.

False. Comparing those metric rating across years and schedules gives an incomplete picture. But how about wins for example? Gophers won several more games this year than three years ago. Gophers weren't even in the NIT conversation FFS.

And coming back to the "metrics". The only reason the Gophers numbers were that high was because of a few wins against the top of the Big Ten. Ranked wins against top twenty five opponents (Michigan, OSU, Iowa, Purdue, MSU). But that was also probably the most over inflated Big Ten ever. How good was the conference that year? A year in which the Gophers won six games?

Try using your eyes. Pitino's last team without Carr may have been Depaul level bad. That program was in bad shape with Carr looking to leave.

 

[CPTMidnight]

Actually the main person responsible for the hiring of BJ is gone now. I'm not expecting a change to happen, but I don't think Ben is out of the woods yet either. If a change was going to happen, it won't be until after they are done playing in the BTT.

Mark could say he was overruled, and why, and I would believe him. Until then the basketball program is his responsibility.

 

[Gophers7633]

False. Comparing those metric rating across years and schedules gives an incomplete picture. But how about wins for example? Gophers won several more games this year than three years ago. Gophers weren't even in the NIT conversation FFS.

And coming back to the "metrics". The only reason the Gophers numbers were that high was because of a few wins against the top of the Big Ten. Ranked wins against top twenty five opponents (Michigan, OSU, Iowa, Purdue, MSU). But that was also probably the most over inflated Big Ten ever. How good was the conference that year? A year in which the Gophers won six games?

Try using your eyes. Pitino's last team without Carr may have been Depaul level bad. That program was in bad shape with Carr looking to leave.

So if we're going to go by wins as the metric, teams like Cleveland State, Norfolk State, UT-Martin and Central Connecticut State are better than the Gophers? I'd certainly disagree. Also, the only reason we are in the NIT conversation is because the NIT changed the rules. We also played 4 less OOC games that year, I'm not saying we would have won them all(because Pitino actually scheduled worth a damn OOC), but not out of the question. Which would have gotten them to 18 wins. Also the 2021 NIT was only 16 teams.

And yeah, it's crazy how beating top 15 teams will help your metrics. How good was the conference that year? It was rated #1 in the NET. People want to bring up the NET this season to prop up the conference, well that same metric had it #1 that season. Wasn't particularly close either.

I have used my eyes. And they've seen this team get blown out a bunch. And since you want to keep saying if that team didn't have Carr so on and so forth, how good would this team be without Hawkins?

 

[stocker08]

So if we're going to go by wins as the metric, teams like Cleveland State, Norfolk State, UT-Martin and Central Connecticut State are better than the Gophers? I'd certainly disagree. Also, the only reason we are in the NIT conversation is because the NIT changed the rules. We also played 4 less OOC games that year, I'm not saying we would have won them all(because Pitino actually scheduled worth a damn OOC), but not out of the question. Which would have gotten them to 18 wins. Also the 2021 NIT was only 16 teams.

And yeah, it's crazy how beating top 15 teams will help your metrics. How good was the conference that year? It was rated #1 in the NET. People want to bring up the NET this season to prop up the conference, well that same metric had it #1 that season. Wasn't particularly close either.

I have used my eyes. And they've seen this team get blown out a bunch. And since you want to keep saying if that team didn't have Carr so on and so forth, how good would this team be without Hawkins?

None of those teams play in the Big Ten....so I don't see how that's relevant.

Again....the Big Ten was #1 ranked in NET....and look how the conference performed in the NCAA Tournament? Absolutely dismantled. The metrics aren't perfect. They were obviously way off on the Big Ten.

There's little question to me. This is a better team than Pitino's last team. And the program is in a much better place going into next year.

 

[LongLiveMilesTarver]

None of those teams play in the Big Ten....so I don't see how that's relevant.

Again....the Big Ten was #1 ranked in NET....and look how the conference performed in the NCAA Tournament? Absolutely dismantled. The metrics aren't perfect. They were obviously way off on the Big Ten.

There's little question to me. This is a better team than Pitino's last team. And the program is in a much better place going into next year.

I'll wait to see who transfers out/in before accessing who has the program in a better place but I will partially disagree that this year's team is better than Pitino's last team.


The 2021 team was ranked for a month and had big wins over ranked Iowa, Michigan St, Ohio St, Michigan, and Purdue and absolutely destroyed the Michigan teams so they were obviously good when healthy.

But, as with every Pitino team, we had no depth so by the time Robbins and kalscheur were injured that team wasn't as good by season's end as the 2024 squad.

 

[Gophers7633]

None of those teams play in the Big Ten....so I don't see how that's relevant.

Again....the Big Ten was #1 ranked in NET....and look how the conference performed in the NCAA Tournament? Absolutely dismantled. The metrics aren't perfect. They were obviously way off on the Big Ten.

There's little question to me. This is a better team than Pitino's last team. And the program is in a much better place going into next year.

Yeah, I know. It's called strength of schedule. This team played literally the worst OOC schedule in the country and then in a softer B1G.

Metrics can't be correct one year(2024) and incorrect another(2021). That's not how they work. I get the B1G underperformed in the tournament. Its still irrelevant. These aren't human polls.

Again, outside of wins(against a much EASIER schedule, with more games) exactly how did this team perform better? If you can provide anything, I'm certainly open to more discussion.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Try using your eyes. Pitino's last team without Carr may have been Depaul level bad. That program was in bad shape with Carr looking to leave.

Keep saying Pitino's last team was just Carr is nonsense and you know it. Liam Robbins, Gabe K, and Mashburn Jr were all good players on that team and became All Conference after leaving, in addition to Carr.

That team went in the tank the same time Gabe went out with an injury. Robbins also missed several games an the end of the season.

This years team tanked at the end because of poor effort and terrible coaching, something that has remained consistent for 3 years. Completely different.

 

[stocker08]

Yeah, I know. It's called strength of schedule. This team played literally the worst OOC schedule in the country and then in a softer B1G.

Metrics can't be correct one year(2024) and incorrect another(2021). That's not how they work. I get the B1G underperformed in the tournament. Its still irrelevant. These aren't human polls.

Again, outside of wins(against a much EASIER schedule, with more games) exactly how did this team perform better? If you can provide anything, I'm certainly open to more discussion.

That's where the Big Ten games come into play. This team performed better.

Metrics are useful but again....they don't tell the whole story. The Big Ten that year was WAY overrated. And that affects every team in the conference. Let me remind you once again how good the Big Ten ended up when it mattered:

No doubt this is a better team. And in an upwards trajectory vs Pitino's downhill tumble.

 

[stocker08]

Keep saying Pitino's last team was just Carr is nonsense and you know it. Liam Robbins, Gabe K, and Mashburn Jr were all good players on that team and became All Conference after leaving, in addition to Carr.

That team went in the tank the same time Gabe went out with an injury. Robbins also missed several games an the end of the season.

This years team tanked at the end because of poor effort and terrible coaching, something that has remained consistent for 3 years. Completely different.

Robbins was the only other guy the team could lean on. Even so.....the team relied on Carr an unhealthy amount. It was a one man show that fell apart in a giant way.

And lol at you making excuse for injuries and whatnot. Don't be mad that Johnson has the program moving in the right direction. It could still fall apart in the next year.

 

[howeda7]

False. Comparing those metric rating across years and schedules gives an incomplete picture. But how about wins for example? Gophers won several more games this year than three years ago. Gophers weren't even in the NIT conversation FFS.

And coming back to the "metrics". The only reason the Gophers numbers were that high was because of a few wins against the top of the Big Ten. Ranked wins against top twenty five opponents (Michigan, OSU, Iowa, Purdue, MSU). But that was also probably the most over inflated Big Ten ever. How good was the conference that year? A year in which the Gophers won six games?

Try using your eyes. Pitino's last team without Carr may have been Depaul level bad. That program was in bad shape with Carr looking to leave.

Pitino's last team when healthy was better than this team. They knocked off three ranked teams in December and January. They imploded when a couple injuries struck. This team was fairly healthy but even one guy out seemed to lead to fatigue dead legs and awful play anyway. They're very similar teams.

 

[stocker08]

Pitino's last team when healthy was better than this team. They knocked off three ranked teams in December and January. They imploded when a couple injuries struck. This team was fairly healthy but even one guy out seemed to lead to fatigue dead legs and awful play anyway. They're very similar teams.

No it wasn't. Big Ten was super overrated in 2020 as evidenced by those ranked teams immediately getting dumped out of the tournament....with the exception of Michigan.....who also underperformed their seeding.

 

[Gophers7633]

That's where the Big Ten games come into play. This team performed better.

Metrics are useful but again....they don't tell the whole story. The Big Ten that year was WAY overrated. And that affects every team in the conference. Let me remind you once again how good the Big Ten ended up when it mattered:

No doubt this is a better team. And in an upwards trajectory vs Pitino's downhill tumble.

I mean, yeah it performed better against an easier schedule. No denying that. But it didn't perform good enough to outpace it in any metric. Even SOR, KPI, KenPom and BPI all had the 2021 performing at a higher level.

You've still provided nothing to suggest this team was better other than winning 4 more games(all the while playing 4 more games), against a significantly easier overall schedule.

 

[howeda7]

No it wasn't. Big Ten was super overrated in 2020 as evidenced by those ranked teams immediately getting dumped out of the tournament....with the exception of Michigan.....who also underperformed their seeding.

The wins over Iowa and Michigan Pitino had are better than any win this year.

 

[stocker08]

I mean, yeah it performed better against an easier schedule. No denying that. But it didn't perform good enough to outpace it in any metric. Even SOR, KPI, KenPom and BPI all had the 2021 performing at a higher level.

You've still provided nothing to suggest this team was better other than winning 4 more games(all the while playing 4 more games), against a significantly easier overall schedule.

Three more wins in conference. 9-11 vs 6-14. Zero away wins for Pitino's last team. Super overrated 2020 Big Ten.

The wins over Iowa and Michigan Pitino had are better than any win this year.

I wouldn't disagree with that.

 

[Off-GridTNgopher]

Wait....... you want the gophers to leave the B1G??? That's just assinine

I don't think many people know how tough big ten basketball is. I am sure many other teams boards are very similar to this one expecting everything to be gravy and their team to not lose any games and when a game does go bad it is all over and big win it is all celebration. Not making any excuses for the Gophers or CBJ, but in reality they were 3 games away from being a top 3 team in the big ten this year. YES, they easily had their chances to do that and could have been a top 3 team this year and are NOT. But encouraging to know how close.

If they are all willing to stick it out with CBJ that would be the best case scenario and the expectation should be top 3 in big ten and DANCING! Heck, maybe even a BIG TEN TITLE!

If they don't all stick around it will be a bummer(sad for sports), but unless you get a chance to snag a coach like the Creighton coach to come here, CBJ is eventually going to get his experience too, and tough to restart all yet again. Other big ten teams have tried things and almost similar results to Minnesota. Yes it is painful to watch the collapses but it isn't just Minnesota it happens too. BIG TEN IS TOUGH, sports are tough, and always going to be a FIGHT. Minnesota is a tough spot to be in with the Big ten conference only growing and getting tougher...(yes wish they would move out, but won't happen).

One thing I do hope CBJ starts to except is sometimes YOU NEED OFFENSE TOO. To much talk about getting stops, but in the tough closing minutes you also need to learn to score the ball. This team is built to run, throw more alley oops and be electric. FOR NOW, lets try to get behind them in and hopefully a good run in the BIG TEN TOURNY! Anything can happen in March!

It is interesting how he makes this claim, and then we get housed by IU at home, and NW on the road.

Ben really got comfortable with that comment I guess.

There's no way we're getting all of our key players back, or at least it doesn't feel like it with how they are playing right now.

It doesn't strike me as an inspired group that is really enjoying playing together right now.

They all looked and played like they knew Ben was a dead man walking

 

[golfing18now]

We're in a much better place than at the end of Pitino's final year.

This is a really difficult argument to make one way or another. We don't know what would have come back had Pitino stayed and we don't know what will stay around for next year assuming Johnson is back.

But I fear three or four defections and it's hello again Weakling Wednesday (or worse).

 

[MNVCGUY]

This is a really difficult argument to make one way or another. We don't know what would have come back had Pitino stayed and we don't know what will stay around for next year assuming Johnson is back.

But I fear three or four defections and it's hello again Weakling Wednesday (or worse).

And it really doesn't matter anyway.....the two sides will yell at each other and tell each other they are wrong as they try and compare two things that really can't be compared in any fool proof way because there are too many variables involved. They won't ever see eye to eye but that won't stop them from having the same arguments over and over and over and over again.

To your last line, if that happens, Johnson will get fired and those desperate for a coaching change will get their wish. On the flip side, if the team stays together and does well next year the majority of the board will come together and be happy about the progress. One way or another I think this is all resolved at the end of next season.

The performance this year was good enough to earn year 4, it won't be good enough to earn year 5. The team will have to take another step next year or Johnson will be fired and we will get to start over again.

 

[007gopherfan]

Wait....... you want the gophers to leave the B1G??? That's just assinine



They all looked and played like they knew Ben was a dead man walking

If the Gophers could talk with other teams and form a new conference that contains:

Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Northwestern, Nebraska, Iowa State, Northern Iowa, Marquette, Drake and Creighton.....that would be very competitive 10 team conference, travel expense friendly, better for student athletes and more chances for all those teams at titles, recruiting, fan experiences, tourny trips and much more. Plus it would allow hockey to get the hockey to form a conference with Minnesota, North Dakota, Bemidji, Duluth, St. Cloud, Augustana, St. Thomas, Wisconsin, Mankato, Nebraska Omaha.

The NCAA needs to step up and take control before this all gets ugly. Student athletes will be traveling more than professional sports teams.

 

[howeda7]

If the Gophers could talk with other teams and form a new conference that contains:

Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Northwestern, Nebraska, Iowa State, Northern Iowa, Marquette, Drake and Creighton.....that would be very competitive 10 team conference, travel expense friendly, better for student athletes and more chances for all those teams at titles, recruiting, fan experiences, tourny trips and much more. Plus it would allow hockey to get the hockey to form a conference with Minnesota, North Dakota, Bemidji, Duluth, St. Cloud, Augustana, St. Thomas, Wisconsin, Mankato, Nebraska Omaha.

The NCAA needs to step up and take control before this all gets ugly. Student athletes will be traveling more than professional sports teams.

That's not a good football conference at all and therefore will never happen. Come on.

 

[golfing18now]

And it really doesn't matter anyway.....the two sides will yell at each other and tell each other they are wrong as they try and compare two things that really can't be compared in any fool proof way because there are too many variables involved. They won't ever see eye to eye but that won't stop them from having the same arguments over and over and over and over again.

To your last line, if that happens, Johnson will get fired and those desperate for a coaching change will get their wish. On the flip side, if the team stays together and does well next year the majority of the board will come together and be happy about the progress. One way or another I think this is all resolved at the end of next season.

The performance this year was good enough to earn year 4, it won't be good enough to earn year 5. The team will have to take another step next year or Johnson will be fired and we will get to start over again.

I don't disagree with anything you have written here.

The week or two after the season ends will be very important for the trajectory of this program. I think Coyle's and Johnson's comments about the potential of next year's team were geared to the players on this team more than anything/anybody else. I suppose you can always backfill with the portal. However, preaching patience and building something long term is largely predicated on retaining key players over time, not large turnover year to year.

I think we will know soon.

 

[007gopherfan]

That's not a good football conference at all and therefore will never happen. Come on.

How is that not? MN never going to be a Ohio State or Michigan with 100k plus fans in their stadiums. All these teams know that is the conference would be very competitive football teams to form a tough conference and fan friendly, which only makes the conference better. All these teams would benefit.

 

[howeda7]

How is that not? MN never going to be a Ohio State or Michigan with 100k plus fans in their stadiums. All these teams know that is the conference would be very competitive football teams to form a tough conference and fan friendly, which only makes the conference better. All these teams would benefit.

Doesn't matter. Minnesota, much less Wisconsin and Iowa are not leaving the B1G football conference for some regional basketball-focused conference with teams like Drake and Creighton that don't even play football. It's beyond far fetched, it's absurd.

 

[Gophers7633]

Three more wins in conference. 9-11 vs 6-14. Zero away wins for Pitino's last team. Super overrated 2020 Big Ten.



I wouldn't disagree with that.

Sure, because of the easier schedule. I'd be curious what our record would be if we played 6 more Q1 games like Pitino's last team did. As a reference our Q1 record was 1-8 this season.

 

[forever a gopher]

And it really doesn't matter anyway.....the two sides will yell at each other and tell each other they are wrong as they try and compare two things that really can't be compared in any fool proof way because there are too many variables involved. They won't ever see eye to eye but that won't stop them from having the same arguments over and over and over and over again.

To your last line, if that happens, Johnson will get fired and those desperate for a coaching change will get their wish. On the flip side, if the team stays together and does well next year the majority of the board will come together and be happy about the progress. One way or another I think this is all resolved at the end of next season.

The performance this year was good enough to earn year 4, it won't be good enough to earn year 5. The team will have to take another step next year or Johnson will be fired and we will get to start over again.

Nonsense. You are forgetting this is MN sports. Next year they’ll go 8-12 in conference and get to the NIT due to a better OOC schedule, win a cakewalk first game and lose in the second. Neither side will be particularly happy with the result. It has to be this way, because MN sports.

 

[bga1]

If the Gophers could talk with other teams and form a new conference that contains:

Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Northwestern, Nebraska, Iowa State, Northern Iowa, Marquette, Drake and Creighton.....that would be very competitive 10 team conference, travel expense friendly, better for student athletes and more chances for all those teams at titles, recruiting, fan experiences, tourny trips and much more. Plus it would allow hockey to get the hockey to form a conference with Minnesota, North Dakota, Bemidji, Duluth, St. Cloud, Augustana, St. Thomas, Wisconsin, Mankato, Nebraska Omaha.

The NCAA needs to step up and take control before this all gets ugly. Student athletes will be traveling more than professional sports teams.

The Big Ten television contract nets about 60 million per school- more than any other conference.
They aren't leaving that.

 

[stocker08]

Sure, because of the easier schedule. I'd be curious what our record would be if we played 6 more Q1 games like Pitino's last team did. As a reference our Q1 record was 1-8 this season.

Hard to say. We didn't have a whole lot of Q1 opportunities at home this year.

 

[Gophers7633]

Hard to say. We didn't have a whole lot of Q1 opportunities at home this year.

Makes sense given the weak schedule.