Ben Johnson is a Disaster

How come you think we could have consistent success dipping into the portal?

How come you define us as a successful basketball school?

Does moderate success mean we lose a tournament game once every 4 years like the Pitino era? Or once every other year like Tubby era? Does that mean we go .500 in conference in our good years and 6-8 in bad?

I suppose moderate success is the tournament every few years, maybe win a tournament game every now and then. But most of all, I guess competitive and competent basketball.
 

Doing it right (mostly through recruiting talent and character) takes time. CBJ is a young guy and his inexperience is definitely contributing to some Ls, but five years is nothing if the end result is long-term success. They will be just fine if people are patient.

But 5 years is a really long time in today's basketball world if the end result is not success.

And you are also working on the incorrect premise that success, and sustainable success, can't be achieved without years of awful sloppy basketball. The proof is out there. It is on any number of channels every night and all day on Saturday and Sunday.
 

I think it's only fair that Johnson be kept through Dennis Evans' senior year regardless, 6 years is the equitable minimum for this palatial rebuild.
 

Just be patient, we're 1-17 over our last 18 B1G games, with a good chance of being 1-24 over our last 25 by the end of the season.

Totally normal and a part of the process...:rolleyes:

Give me a fucking break
I forgot how they ended last conference season.

The potential of going 1-24 within the conference over the last two years is quite the feat.
 



Look, the record is bad. the performance is inconsistent. a lot of bad losses.

none of that is disputable.

what I disagree with is the notion that if you just take Ben Johnson out of the picture and substitute Coach X, that the situation would suddenly be radically different.

could things be better with a different coach? certainly.

But - I find it hard to believe that the Portal would suddenly open up and produce all of these good players who would immediately transform the program.

We're still talking about MN. Portal players can choose to go anywhere they want. What do they want? playing time - an opportunity to win - an opportunity to make the NCAA tournament and get more exposure - and in some cases (not all) an opportunity to get NIL $$.

what can MN offer them - playing time to start. everything else is a maybe, or in the case of NIL, a no.

again - things could be better. I just don't think that changing coaches would solve every problem at MN. no matter who the coach is, some of the other problems would remain.
 

You just wish that a Big 10 University with at least a somewhat recent level of moderate and occasional success wasn't in position to hope that a head coach, with no previous coaching experience, "can still pull it off."

How did it come to this?
The board of directors made the decision to hire a local guy with little experience partially for reasons other than the "absolute success" of the program. Looking back a few years I am surprised that nobody saw it coming. This thread should be named (the "UofM board is a disaster").

It is in our best interest that the team has a better year next year and Ben is setup to bring in some even better talent resulting a really nice trajectory for the program. The alternative will be that the U Board of Directors will someday be called on to make another bad decision for their own self serving purposes (and they will probably screw it up big time). Imagine the conniption that some here will have - when that happens...

Not the total vote of confidence you expected?
 

Look, the record is bad. the performance is inconsistent. a lot of bad losses.

none of that is disputable.

what I disagree with is the notion that if you just take Ben Johnson out of the picture and substitute Coach X, that the situation would suddenly be radically different.

could things be better with a different coach? certainly.

But - I find it hard to believe that the Portal would suddenly open up and produce all of these good players who would immediately transform the program.

We're still talking about MN. Portal players can choose to go anywhere they want. What do they want? playing time - an opportunity to win - an opportunity to make the NCAA tournament and get more exposure - and in some cases (not all) an opportunity to get NIL $$.

what can MN offer them - playing time to start. everything else is a maybe, or in the case of NIL, a no.

again - things could be better. I just don't think that changing coaches would solve every problem at MN. no matter who the coach is, some of the other problems would remain.
So no one can categorically say things would be better if we had a different coach. Thus you can always fight for your side. That said we have 1 win (against the 13th placed team) in conference. Yes some bad luck, but it is really hard to imagine it could be worse.
 

Look, the record is bad. the performance is inconsistent. a lot of bad losses.

none of that is disputable.

what I disagree with is the notion that if you just take Ben Johnson out of the picture and substitute Coach X, that the situation would suddenly be radically different.

could things be better with a different coach? certainly.

But - I find it hard to believe that the Portal would suddenly open up and produce all of these good players who would immediately transform the program.

We're still talking about MN. Portal players can choose to go anywhere they want. What do they want? playing time - an opportunity to win - an opportunity to make the NCAA tournament and get more exposure - and in some cases (not all) an opportunity to get NIL $$.

what can MN offer them - playing time to start. everything else is a maybe, or in the case of NIL, a no.

again - things could be better. I just don't think that changing coaches would solve every problem at MN. no matter who the coach is, some of the other problems would remain.
I happen to think that a coach that can coach is more than half the battle (no pun intended), maybe closer to 2/3rds of it. Many, many people disagree with that; they think that the main battle - maybe the only battle that matters - is to get better players. It matters, for sure, but a coach at Minnesota has to get the most out of what will almost always be equal to inferior talent to the league. Indiana/Illinois/Michigan/MSU/OSU/PU, maybe even Maryland will have at least as good talent every year. You gotta be able to coach. Maybe Ben will learn. The metrics (and I don't mean Ws and Ls) are unkind. I certainly think there are coaches out there that could do better metrics-wise with this roster.
 



How come you think we could have consistent success dipping into the portal?

How come you define us as a successful basketball school?

Does moderate success mean we lose a tournament game once every 4 years like the Pitino era? Or once every other year like Tubby era? Does that mean we go .500 in conference in our good years and 6-8 in bad?

Let's be real here. At this point in time, with this particular HC, a good chunk of the fan base (what's left of it) would probably define "moderate success" as walking onto the court for the opening tip with the notion that there's a chance they could actually win a game, or lose by single digits.
 

Look, the record is bad. the performance is inconsistent. a lot of bad losses.

none of that is disputable.

what I disagree with is the notion that if you just take Ben Johnson out of the picture and substitute Coach X, that the situation would suddenly be radically different.

could things be better with a different coach? certainly.

But - I find it hard to believe that the Portal would suddenly open up and produce all of these good players who would immediately transform the program.

We're still talking about MN. Portal players can choose to go anywhere they want. What do they want? playing time - an opportunity to win - an opportunity to make the NCAA tournament and get more exposure - and in some cases (not all) an opportunity to get NIL $$.

what can MN offer them - playing time to start. everything else is a maybe, or in the case of NIL, a no.

again - things could be better. I just don't think that changing coaches would solve every problem at MN. no matter who the coach is, some of the other problems would remain.
He cannot be fired now. Program suicide. What could have happened is ....we could have brought in a coach with a track record. We didn't. Now we are where we are.

Ben has to sell to a very good point guard that he can put together a team that can make waves next year. They get to direct a Big Ten team and there are some talented forwards to work with. His job is to go sell that and put together a roster that works next year. It's go time for this coach. Time to earn the money.

I will always go back to this- after the disastrous Hump year- Monson brought in Vince Grier out of a juco and he led Lawson, Robinson, Coleman, Hagen and a few others to an NCAA berth. It can be done again. If we are now saying that Ben can't sell like Dan Monson could- then we might be in serious trouble.
 

He cannot be fired now. Program suicide. What could have happened is ....we could have brought in a coach with a track record. We didn't. Now we are where we are.

Ben has to sell to a very good point guard that he can put together a team that can make waves next year. They get to direct a Big Ten team and there are some talented forwards to work with. His job is to go sell that and put together a roster that works next year. It's go time for this coach. Time to earn the money.

I will always go back to this- after the disastrous Hump year- Monson brought in Vince Grier out of a juco and he led Lawson, Robinson, Coleman, Hagen and a few others to an NCAA berth. It can be done again. If we are now saying that Ben can't sell like Dan Monson could- then we might be in serious trouble.

Program suicide? We’ve won 1 B1G game over the last calendar year. We already committed program suicide when Ben was hired.
 

Look, the record is bad. the performance is inconsistent. a lot of bad losses.

none of that is disputable.

what I disagree with is the notion that if you just take Ben Johnson out of the picture and substitute Coach X, that the situation would suddenly be radically different.

could things be better with a different coach? certainly.

But - I find it hard to believe that the Portal would suddenly open up and produce all of these good players who would immediately transform the program.

We're still talking about MN. Portal players can choose to go anywhere they want. What do they want? playing time - an opportunity to win - an opportunity to make the NCAA tournament and get more exposure - and in some cases (not all) an opportunity to get NIL $$.

what can MN offer them - playing time to start. everything else is a maybe, or in the case of NIL, a no.

again - things could be better. I just don't think that changing coaches would solve every problem at MN. no matter who the coach is, some of the other problems would remain.
"Coach X"

THAT is the problem. The U admin chose "coach x" instead of securing a top notch coach.
 



He cannot be fired now. Program suicide. What could have happened is ....we could have brought in a coach with a track record. We didn't. Now we are where we are.

Ben has to sell to a very good point guard that he can put together a team that can make waves next year. They get to direct a Big Ten team and there are some talented forwards to work with. His job is to go sell that and put together a roster that works next year. It's go time for this coach. Time to earn the money.

I will always go back to this- after the disastrous Hump year- Monson brought in Vince Grier out of a juco and he led Lawson, Robinson, Coleman, Hagen and a few others to an NCAA berth. It can be done again. If we are now saying that Ben can't sell like Dan Monson could- then we might be in serious trouble.
I loved that team. Hagen improved so much, as did Arob. Lots of effort.
 

Look, the record is bad. the performance is inconsistent. a lot of bad losses.

none of that is disputable.

what I disagree with is the notion that if you just take Ben Johnson out of the picture and substitute Coach X, that the situation would suddenly be radically different.

could things be better with a different coach? certainly.

But - I find it hard to believe that the Portal would suddenly open up and produce all of these good players who would immediately transform the program.

We're still talking about MN. Portal players can choose to go anywhere they want. What do they want? playing time - an opportunity to win - an opportunity to make the NCAA tournament and get more exposure - and in some cases (not all) an opportunity to get NIL $$.

what can MN offer them - playing time to start. everything else is a maybe, or in the case of NIL, a no.

again - things could be better. I just don't think that changing coaches would solve every problem at MN. no matter who the coach is, some of the other problems would remain.
The problem could be that 1 or 2 of the current freshmen are convinced to go into the portal for a better program and/or more NIL $. To think that current freshmen class will stick it out might be a wish and a prayer. Then what?
 

Look, the record is bad. the performance is inconsistent. a lot of bad losses.

none of that is disputable.

what I disagree with is the notion that if you just take Ben Johnson out of the picture and substitute Coach X, that the situation would suddenly be radically different.

could things be better with a different coach? certainly.

But - I find it hard to believe that the Portal would suddenly open up and produce all of these good players who would immediately transform the program.

We're still talking about MN. Portal players can choose to go anywhere they want. What do they want? playing time - an opportunity to win - an opportunity to make the NCAA tournament and get more exposure - and in some cases (not all) an opportunity to get NIL $$.

what can MN offer them - playing time to start. everything else is a maybe, or in the case of NIL, a no.

again - things could be better. I just don't think that changing coaches would solve every problem at MN. no matter who the coach is, some of the other problems would remain.
Things should and could be better, and it would be difficult to fathom how they could possibly be any worse. We've managed to go from a 3rd-quartile team in the Big Ten to easily the worst, a laughingstock embarrassment, and somehow achieved it in less than 2 calendar years.
 

The board of directors made the decision to hire a local guy with little experience partially for reasons other than the "absolute success" of the program. Looking back a few years I am surprised that nobody saw it coming. This thread should be named (the "UofM board is a disaster").

It is in our best interest that the team has a better year next year and Ben is setup to bring in some even better talent resulting a really nice trajectory for the program. The alternative will be that the U Board of Directors will someday be called on to make another bad decision for their own self serving purposes (and they will probably screw it up big time). Imagine the conniption that some here will have - when that happens...

Not the total vote of confidence you expected?
Who the hell are the U Board of Directors?
 

Program suicide? We’ve won 1 B1G game over the last calendar year. We already committed program suicide when Ben was hired.
Firing a well liked, scandal free, local, black coach after 2 years would be program suicide. I don’t like what I see but I have hope for Ben. The U put him in this spot and they need to give him the time.
 

The board of directors made the decision to hire a local guy with little experience partially for reasons other than the "absolute success" of the program. Looking back a few years I am surprised that nobody saw it coming. This thread should be named (the "UofM board is a disaster").

It is in our best interest that the team has a better year next year and Ben is setup to bring in some even better talent resulting a really nice trajectory for the program. The alternative will be that the U Board of Directors will someday be called on to make another bad decision for their own self serving purposes (and they will probably screw it up big time). Imagine the conniption that some here will have - when that happens...

Not the total vote of confidence you expected?
To be more charitable and probably accurate, the Ben Johnson hire is a disaster (at least so far). He's not personally a disaster. That's why I wish and pray he'll still be successful. He's high character and from all appearances has recruited high-character kids. That's not nothing.
 

Firing a well liked, scandal free, local, black coach after 2 years would be program suicide. I don’t like what I see but I have hope for Ben. The U put him in this spot and they need to give him the time.

It wouldn't be suicide. Many coaches who are well liked are failures at their jobs. A good coach with a good system solves a lot of problems, and Ben isn't that.

This team has regressed in every way in year 2. There are zero signs of progress. Ben has only needed 2 years to put this program into a coma. They need to find a new doctor soon, or this program will be completely dead.
 

It wouldn't be suicide. Many coaches who are well liked are failures at their jobs. A good coach with a good system solves a lot of problems, and Ben isn't that.

This team has regressed in every way in year 2. There are zero signs of progress. Ben has only needed 2 years to put this program into a coma. They need to find a new doctor soon, or this program will be completely dead.

I'm actually not THAT worried about the state of the program right now; in this day and age, any coach that is worth his salt can turn this thing around in 12-18 months. They're doing it at many other schools across the country.

I'm worried about the state of the fanbase. People don't give a shit anymore. Like not at all. That is the morbid, haunting reality we are looking at currently. And THAT is something that is going to take a lot of time and effort and strategy to recover from.
 

Honestly all you supporters. What grade realistically are you giving coach BJ based on "on court" production...
 

Honestly all you supporters. What grade realistically are you giving coach BJ based on "on court" production...
I'll bite. I'm a supporter of Ben's to some extent. I give him an F for your "on court" production question. If he earns that from me again next year, after bringing in what seems to be a nice class, then I would be all for a change. With the portal and our incoming class, he has to move them out of the cellar.
 

I'll bite. I'm a supporter of Ben's to some extent. I give him an F for your "on court" production question. If he earns that from me again next year, after bringing in what seems to be a nice class, then I would be all for a change. With the portal and our incoming class, he has to move them out of the cellar.
Wasn't fishing.... But thanks for the nibble... I'm just shocked as how much support he is getting after the production to date... I agree completely with your sentiment. D-/f grade for the on court performance
 

Wasn't fishing.... But thanks for the nibble... I'm just shocked as how much support he is getting after the production to date... I agree completely with your sentiment. D-/f grade for the on court performance
I'm a supporter until I'm not. I'm on board giving a guy a three year go. Portal may work or it may not. Look at Wyoming, they brought three guys in this year from USC and UCLA, and they're already off the team. Said coach should have a noticeable system in place with a few of his own players running that system in year three. If improvement from pre-hire isn't there, maybe even substantial improvement, my support is probably gone. I think that's pretty reasonable.
 
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Look, the record is bad. the performance is inconsistent. a lot of bad losses.

none of that is disputable.

what I disagree with is the notion that if you just take Ben Johnson out of the picture and substitute Coach X, that the situation would suddenly be radically different.

could things be better with a different coach? certainly.

But - I find it hard to believe that the Portal would suddenly open up and produce all of these good players who would immediately transform the program.

We're still talking about MN. Portal players can choose to go anywhere they want. What do they want? playing time - an opportunity to win - an opportunity to make the NCAA tournament and get more exposure - and in some cases (not all) an opportunity to get NIL $$.

what can MN offer them - playing time to start. everything else is a maybe, or in the case of NIL, a no.

again - things could be better. I just don't think that changing coaches would solve every problem at MN. no matter who the coach is, some of the other problems would remain.
There's a huge difference between "good" and "better than this." Can we say that if we hired Craig Smith or Brian Dutcher as we should have, we'd be a good solid NCAA team this year? No. Can we say we'd be better than we are now? Yes. 100%.
 

Firing a well liked, scandal free, local, black coach after 2 years would be program suicide. I don’t like what I see but I have hope for Ben. The U put him in this spot and they need to give him the time.
No it wouldn't. No one cares enough about the program for it to be a "suicide". Public interest is already dead. You might get a tersely worded column from Jim Souhan, who knows squat about college basketball, but that would be the extent of the media outrage. Maybe some AAU coaches would be mad or something, but I hope we've learned not to let them influence hires by now.

It's 98% certain he will get next year. But there's no way he should get year 4 without at least an NIT level season next year.
 
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Who the hell are the U Board of Directors?
You are right - that is confusing. I am referring to the Hiring committee that was relied upon to find and select a candidate and is lead by President Gabel who is the most senior member on the team but also includes Coyle who was charged with assembling it. Also the greater group of internal leadership that has input on decisions like this and sometimes includes the Board of Regents chiming in through backdoor channels.

As a side note my 1st experience working with the U was leading a project with U marketing department leadership in 2001. Each of the colleges sent a representative so we had 35 people in an extremely large board room and the requirement was that we had a general consensus for each decision in the process. Some people cared, some did not, some were competent, some were not, some were focused on getting things quickly done, some seemed like the enjoyed setting up obstacles for the rest of the group to overcome while adding nothing. Never have I had a client that spent so much time getting so little done...
 

I happen to think that a coach that can coach is more than half the battle (no pun intended), maybe closer to 2/3rds of it. Many, many people disagree with that; they think that the main battle - maybe the only battle that matters - is to get better players. It matters, for sure, but a coach at Minnesota has to get the most out of what will almost always be equal to inferior talent to the league. Indiana/Illinois/Michigan/MSU/OSU/PU, maybe even Maryland will have at least as good talent every year. You gotta be able to coach. Maybe Ben will learn. The metrics (and I don't mean Ws and Ls) are unkind. I certainly think there are coaches out there that could do better metrics-wise with this roster.
This is really where the fair discussion lies imo. Some others want to scream roster construction and I see some of that argument being fair too, but could a different staff teach this ground better? I don’t know yet.
 





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