Ben Johnson is a Disaster

[Bob_Loblaw]

Or, to say it another way, as much money as is available for a new basketball coach - which might not be as much as more than a few other places. Much has been said around here about the "equity or social justice" angle of this hiring but maybe some of that was just putting lipstick on a pig. Better to say that we're promoting equity in hiring instead of we're just cheap or broke.

Like I mentioned previously, Penn State never seemed to care that much about basketball and they hired a coach with negligibly more experience than Ben Johnson (he was associated with a better program as an assistant but a brief tenure as a head coach of a moribund NIAA program isn't much) for around the same amount of money. But, Shrewsberry surprised and I think PSU decided they liked that exposure from a run through the Big Ten tournament and an NCAA tournament appearance with a win. So, after he departed, they forked up the cash for a mature coach with a demonstrated track record of success. Will Minnesota do the same? Well, they didn't with the last two hires and the fatter TV contract may not matter.

You simply cannot compare Shrewsberry and Johnson. He was an assistant coach on teams that went to back-to-back national championship games and then was an NBA assistant for 6 seasons. He then was Matt Painter's lead assistant.

As to your question about Coyle being cheap and maybe using equity as a way to hide cheapness. Maybe, except we were no where near as cheap as we had to be to get him. We probably could have paid him half of what he got. All of that said, that's not the ADs decision. They are essentially given a budget by their bosses of which to work. Every AD would like to spend as much money as possible, it makes their life easier.

 

[leib0039]

Same thing Eddy Jordan did at Rutgers and he got three years. Todd Lickliter got three years and his teams were terrible (at least two of them were; a third had a losing season but wasn't that far below .500). Fred Hoiberg's teams won 7 games each of his first two seasons and 10 wins in his third. His fourth season was only .500 and he's still there for a 5th year.

Johnson wasn't going to be fired after his second year. Only some dullards who post here believed that he might be. There was a reason why a school as cheap as this one is when it comes to paying basketball coaches set his buyout so high after his second year (the provision was never going to be applicable).

Your comparing CBJ to a guy who won 23+ games 4 straight years at a P5 school then went to the nba? Johnson has legitimately 0 success in his career, anywhere ever. That matters. I'd hazard a guess if we hired someone with that resume we would be way more patient.

Also I laugh when people say things like, ohh if you do X Y or Z to this coach that will hurt future coaching hires. No it won't! Money talks, I promise you if we would've fired Johnson last year and offered $6m a year we could've essentially got anyone we wanted. The only thing that will effect future hires is money, that's it, that all.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Your comparing CBJ to a guy who won 23+ games 4 straight years at a P5 school then went to the nba? Johnson has legitimately 0 success in his career, anywhere ever. That matters. I'd hazard a guess if we hired someone with that resume we would be way more patient.

Also I laugh when people say things like, ohh if you do X Y or Z to this coach that will hurt future coaching hires. No it won't! Money talks, I promise you if we would've fired Johnson last year and offered $6m a year we could've essentially got anyone we wanted. The only thing that will effect future hires is money, that's it, that all.

No coach we want would ever think "I don't want to coach for a program that will only let me be historically bad for two seasons". It's one thing if you're constantly firing people for going .500 or if the expectations aren't realistic. But if you fire someone for being historically bad for two seasons, no one worth a sh!t would blink twice.

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

Your comparing CBJ to a guy who won 23+ games 4 straight years at a P5 school then went to the nba? Johnson has legitimately 0 success in his career, anywhere ever. That matters. I'd hazard a guess if we hired someone with that resume we would be way more patient.

Also I laugh when people say things like, ohh if you do X Y or Z to this coach that will hurt future coaching hires. No it won't! Money talks, I promise you if we would've fired Johnson last year and offered $6m a year we could've essentially got anyone we wanted. The only thing that will effect future hires is money, that's it, that all.

This school will offer a head basketball coach $6 million when it's worth about $2.5 million in today's dollars.

Shrewsberry wasn't a head coach for a P5 team or in the NBA. He also wasn't at Purdue as an assistant for four straight years. He was there for two two-year stints that were six years apart. As for how important he was as a Celtics assistant coach, who knows? Penn State apparently didn't evaluate his experience that highly because they hired him at not much more money than Johnson got here.

 

[Ewert86PC]

Excellent post! I think you captured the thinking of most around here who aren't carrying pitchforks. A lot of these people wanted him fired after last season. That would have been really bad form and likely would have made this a less attractive destination to prospective coaching candidates. I haven't seen a Big Ten coach in at least the last 20 years who has been fired after 2 years for performance. I've seen two fired after three years so I think that should be the minimum tenure especially for a first-time head coach who took over under difficult circumstances. There's a reason why that buyout was set pretty high after two seasons: it was never intended to be operable.

Ben Johnson is now the MBB equivalent of Cheryl Littlejohn.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

Same thing Eddy Jordan did at Rutgers and he got three years. Todd Lickliter got three years and his teams were terrible (at least two of them were; a third had a losing season but wasn't that far below .500). Fred Hoiberg's teams won 7 games each of his first two seasons and 10 wins in his third. His fourth season was only .500 and he's still there for a 5th year.

Johnson wasn't going to be fired after his second year. Only some dullards who post here believed that he might be. There was a reason why a school as cheap as this one is when it comes to paying basketball coaches set his buyout so high after his second year (the provision was never going to be applicable).

At least Hoiberg has a personality.

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

No coach we want would ever think "I don't want to coach for a program that will only let me be historically bad for two seasons". It's one thing if you're constantly firing people for going .500 or if the expectations aren't realistic. But if you fire someone for being historically bad for two seasons, no one worth a sh!t would blink twice.

Yeah, well how come no Big Ten school has fired a coach for performance after two years in recent memory?

Eddy Jordan (Rutgers, 2014-2016)

Year 1: 7-25
Year 2: 10-22
Fired after a 12-21 year 3

Fred Hoiberg, Nebraska

Year 1: 7-25
Year 2: 7-20
Year 3: 10-22
Year 4: .500
Year 5: still there

Todd Lickliter (Iowa, 2007-2010

Year 1: 13-19
Year 2: 15-17
Year 3: 10-22

fired after year 3

Pat Chambers (PSU, 2011-2020)

Year 1: 12-20
Year 2: 10-21
Year 3: 16-18

He lasted 9 seasons!

Go and see if you can find a Big Ten basketball coach who was fired after two years for performance in this century!

Do your homework! Just like you didn't do your homework when you accused me of being Rockraven and made a bunch of false claims. I called you on it and you had no reply. I'm sure you weren't embarrassed because you're used to bluffing and being wrong.

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

Ben Johnson is now the MBB equivalent of Cheryl Littlejohn.

I wasn't around for her so I looked her up. She was here for four years and, according to what I was able to discover in less than two minutes, she was fired for multiple violations (although she also had poor performance). Ben Johnson hasn't been accused of any violations.

Is that all you have, dumb ass?

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

At least Hoiberg has a personality.

I've always liked Fred. I was surprised that he didn't do better in his first four years. It certainly didn't take him long to succeed at Iowa State. He's doing well so far this year although he hasn't played anyone very good so far. Oregon State actually was rated worse than we were last season.

 

[GopherOhana]

Oregon State actually was rated worse than we were last season.

Oregon State, Syracuse, Cal, Louisville, Georgetown, Notre Dame and the U. Need a post season tourney for these teams.

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

Oregon State, Syracuse, Cal, Louisville, Georgetown, Notre Dame and the U. Need a post season tourney for these teams.

You might remember that there was a joke on twitter last season about a proposed 4 team post-season tournament between us, Louisville, California, and Georgetown with the question "Who would win this tournament?"

I was mildly gratified that we were the favorite among the twitter respondents.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

No coach we want would ever think "I don't want to coach for a program that will only let me be historically bad for two seasons". It's one thing if you're constantly firing people for going .500 or if the expectations aren't realistic. But if you fire someone for being historically bad for two seasons, no one worth a sh!t would blink twice.

+1

If i were an up and coming coach with options, I would be more comfortable with "they might fire me if I have two of the worst years in school history" than I would be with "they might fire me the same year i go to the round of 32 after making the tourney three times in six years because they decide they think I look lazy when I sit on a stool."

 

[MTBeaudry]

Hi[His decisiins lost="Bayfieldgopher, post: 2 thr, member: 281"]
Johnson needs this W in a big way. It will help get the "monkey off his back" and give the squad confidence going forward. Not saying that Missouri is a great team but there is a certain amount of prestige and hope going forward getting a W against a SEC team.

Thus far this has been a fun team to watch. I hope I can say the same thing after tomorrow night.
[/QUOTE]
s last 7 minutes of the game were a disaster. He lost the game for us!

 

[Bad Gopher]

I have been a Ben Johnson supporter - based mainly on my feeling that Ben seems like a decent guy, and I hoped that he could be successful here.

I now admit that I am not as optimistic. this team is going to have to show major improvement this season - at least get to 7-13 or 8-12 in the B1G, and/or make some kind of run in the conference tournament. If they can do that, maybe Johnson keeps his job.

BUT - I have one absolute demand. If Johnson is fired, I want someone to tie Coyle to a chair or lock him in a closet and keep him from holding a press conference. if Johnson is fired, put out a press release. I don't want Coyle anywhere near a camera or a microphone. the last thing the U needs is a repeat of that disastrous performance by Coyle after the Lindsay Whalen firing (excuse me...mutual decision.....ya sure).

At this moment, the Gophs are ranked 105 in KenPom based on these early-season games. The next closest Big Ten team is at 79. I'll be the first to say that this Gopher team has some talent. But the idea that this team will win 7 or 8 conference games is fanciful. I hope they do, but a lot would have to start going right, and the other conference teams--including those who've stubbed their toe early and are still managing to be ranked 60 places higher than the Gophers--would themselves have to somehow avoid improving. I predicted that this team would NOT finish last in the Big Ten because they just have too many good pieces, and I still maintain they have too many good pieces, but this team is coached by Ben Johnson. I know Coach P over on the women's side could make something interesting out of this men's team, but we are where we are.

I'm going to hold on to the dream that they'll win 7 or 8 BT games and will cheer for them to do so, but the more realistic thought exercise at this point is what happens when they don't--particularly what happens if the early KenPom ratings follow through the season. I do believe Coyle would make a move after a last-place finish, but that's not guaranteed.

 

[Holy Man]

At this moment, the Gophs are ranked 105 in KenPom based on these early-season games. The next closest Big Ten team is at 79. I'll be the first to say that this Gopher team has some talent. But the idea that this team will win 7 or 8 conference games is fanciful. I hope they do, but a lot would have to start going right, and the other conference teams--including those who've stubbed their toe early and are still managing to be ranked 60 places higher than the Gophers--would themselves have to somehow avoid improving. I predicted that this team would NOT finish last in the Big Ten because they just have too many good pieces, and I still maintain they have too many good pieces, but this team is coached by Ben Johnson. I know Coach P over on the women's side could make something interesting out of this men's team, but we are where we are.

I'm going to hold on to the dream that they'll win 7 or 8 BT games and will cheer for them to do so, but the more realistic thought exercise at this point is what happens when they don't--particularly what happens if the early KenPom ratings follow through the season. I do believe Coyle would make a move after a last-place finish, but that's not guaranteed.

If Coyle can find a job for Ben like he did for Pitino, he might be able to make a move. The problem is that employing Ben after this is a much steeper climb.

 

[howeda7]

At this moment, the Gophs are ranked 105 in KenPom based on these early-season games. The next closest Big Ten team is at 79. I'll be the first to say that this Gopher team has some talent. But the idea that this team will win 7 or 8 conference games is fanciful. I hope they do, but a lot would have to start going right, and the other conference teams--including those who've stubbed their toe early and are still managing to be ranked 60 places higher than the Gophers--would themselves have to somehow avoid improving. I predicted that this team would NOT finish last in the Big Ten because they just have too many good pieces, and I still maintain they have too many good pieces, but this team is coached by Ben Johnson. I know Coach P over on the women's side could make something interesting out of this men's team, but we are where we are.

I'm going to hold on to the dream that they'll win 7 or 8 BT games and will cheer for them to do so, but the more realistic thought exercise at this point is what happens when they don't--particularly what happens if the early KenPom ratings follow through the season. I do believe Coyle would make a move after a last-place finish, but that's not guaranteed.

The great Mizzou team we just choked and lost to was defeated at home by Jackson State. They are a bottom of the barrel SEC team most likely and we couldn't beat them. But at least we had "special season" dreams for 5 minutes after beating UTSA.

 

[howeda7]

If Coyle can find a job for Ben like he did for Pitino, he might be able to make a move. The problem is that employing Ben after this is a much steeper climb.

I assume the buyout drops after April 1. He can re-assign him to "Special Assistant" until then like he did with Lindsey.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Yeah, well how come no Big Ten school has fired a coach for performance after two years in recent memory?

Eddy Jordan (Rutgers, 2014-2016)

Year 1: 7-25
Year 2: 10-22
Fired after a 12-21 year 3

Fred Hoiberg, Nebraska

Year 1: 7-25
Year 2: 7-20
Year 3: 10-22
Year 4: .500
Year 5: still there

Todd Lickliter (Iowa, 2007-2010

Year 1: 13-19
Year 2: 15-17
Year 3: 10-22

fired after year 3

Pat Chambers (PSU, 2011-2020)

Year 1: 12-20
Year 2: 10-21
Year 3: 16-18

He lasted 9 seasons!

Go and see if you can find a Big Ten basketball coach who was fired after two years for performance in this century!

Do your homework! Just like you didn't do your homework when you accused me of being Rockraven and made a bunch of false claims. I called you on it and you had no reply. I'm sure you weren't embarrassed because you're used to bluffing and being wrong.

Huh? Did I ever say Big 10 schools routinely fire coaches for doing a bad job? LOL. This is why people know that you're Rockraven. It's this precise kind of idiocy.

Read my post again Rock. I simply said that no coach worth ANYTHING would have been turned off from this job if we had fired Ben Johnson after last year. I never said that it's common or happen a lot. You did a lot of research trying to disprove a point that no one made. LOL.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

This school will offer a head basketball coach $6 million when it's worth about $2.5 million in today's dollars.

Shrewsberry wasn't a head coach for a P5 team or in the NBA. He also wasn't at Purdue as an assistant for four straight years. He was there for two two-year stints that were six years apart. As for how important he was as a Celtics assistant coach, who knows? Penn State apparently didn't evaluate his experience that highly because they hired him at not much more money than Johnson got here.

No one said that he was. I get that you need to argue things that no one else argued to try to prove some kind of point. You're failing at it, Rock.

The truth is that Shrewsberry's resume absolutely dwarfed Ben's resume. As far as discounting Shrewsberry's accomplishments as "who knows" how much they did there? LOL. Couldn't you say that about everyone's resume? Who knows how much Ben did at Xavier? Who knows how much Ben did at Nebraska?

Brad Stevens surely thought Shrewsberry was valuable. I guess he would be the one that knew. He pulled him up to be an assistant for the Celtics. But then again, what does Brad Stevens know?

 

[mngolf]

I have been a Ben Johnson supporter - based mainly on my feeling that Ben seems like a decent guy, and I hoped that he could be successful here.

I now admit that I am not as optimistic. this team is going to have to show major improvement this season - at least get to 7-13 or 8-12 in the B1G, and/or make some kind of run in the conference tournament. If they can do that, maybe Johnson keeps his job.

BUT - I have one absolute demand. If Johnson is fired, I want someone to tie Coyle to a chair or lock him in a closet and keep him from holding a press conference. if Johnson is fired, put out a press release. I don't want Coyle anywhere near a camera or a microphone. the last thing the U needs is a repeat of that disastrous performance by Coyle after the Lindsay Whalen firing (excuse me...mutual decision.....ya sure).

Lindsay admits this was how it was setup and she was the one who screwed the press conference.

 

[TwistingMyMelon]

Huh? Did I ever say Big 10 schools routinely fire coaches for doing a bad job? LOL. This is why people know that you're Rockraven. It's this precise kind of idiocy.

Read my post again Rock. I simply said that no coach worth ANYTHING would have been turned off from this job if we had fired Ben Johnson after last year. I never said that it's common or happen a lot. You did a lot of research trying to disprove a point that no one made. LOL.

Actually, you dishonestly switched the argument. You said that firing a coach for performance after two years is no big deal. I demonstrated that it hasn't been done in the Big Ten in recent times (possibly not in a longer time horizon either - I didn't check) even though there were candidates who would have tempted that result so it must be a de facto barrier. Dishonesty and dickishness appear to be part of your essence. We should call you Double D.

Call me whatever you want. I don't care. If you had half a brain, you probably could guess who I really was.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Actually, you dishonestly switched the argument. You said that firing a coach for performance after two years is no big deal. I demonstrated that it hasn't been done in the Big Ten in recent times (possibly not in a longer time horizon either - I didn't check) even though there were candidates who would have tempted that result so it must be a de facto barrier. Dishonesty and dickishness appear to be part of your essence. We should call you Double D.

Call me whatever you want. I don't care. If you had half a brain, you probably could guess who I really was.

No, I didn't. You can't read. I said that no coach we would want would be turned off if we had fired Ben after two historically awful seasons. Are you able to see how that's not the same as me saying Big 10 coaches are often fired after two seasons? I suggest you go back and re-read the thread, you're a little lost on this one.

Now go slow with this - - if we had fired Ben after last year, we would have been able to hire a replacement. That would not be a deterrent to any potential hire.

Would firing him after two seasons have been unusual? Absolutely. I never said it wouldn't have been. Would it have had a negative impact on future hiring? God no.

Call me dishonest all you'd like, I'm pretty open about where I stand on things. You're mistaking your inability to follow a conversation with people changing their tune.

As to your real identity, I guess I'm not surprised you're just some other loser who switches up their username. Maybe you're not Rock, but you're very similar - horrible takes, switching usernames, showed up right after he got booted.

 

[WoodburyTim]

Lame joke. I'm embarrassed for you.



Woodbury Tim and Bob-Loblaw.......two of gopherhole's biggest bottom feeders.

That doesn’t seem to be the general consensus. But perhaps the world is all crazy and you are sane one. Possible I suppose.

 

[Slim Tubby]

I actually feel bad for Ben. He stepped into a situation that he just wasn't ready for and is in way over his head. By all accounts, he's one of the nicest human beings on the planet. Then I remind myself that he could live a modest life without ever having to work again. It's time to do what's best for the health of this program and Gopher hoops fans everywhere.

 

[FinnGopher]

I actually feel bad for Ben. He stepped into a situation that he just wasn't ready for and is in way over his head. By all accounts, he's one of the nicest human beings on the planet. Then I remind myself that he could live a modest life without ever having to work again. It's time to do what's best for the health of this program and Gopher hoops fans everywhere.

This reads like a backhanded slap to Ben's face.

 

[stocker08]

That doesn’t seem to be the general consensus. But perhaps the world is all crazy and you are sane one. Possible I suppose.

The general consensus of the people who rage post in the 'Ben Johnson is a Disaster' thread. lol.

 

[Gopherbbdude]

I still refuse to click on this thread.

 

[howeda7]

I still refuse to click on this thread.

Your ability to appear in it without clicking it is remarkable. Can you do the same to insert fans into the Barn?

 

[disco]

I have a sneaking suspicion that he might not be killing it when it comes to fundraising either and, in his job, that's probably more important than "decision making."

Coyle isn't going anywhere. The U has an interim president that is contractually unable to be hired for the permanent position. Nothing will happen until we get a new president in place. Hopefully they don't hire some sports-hater.

 

[WoodburyTim]

The general consensus of the people who rage post in the 'Ben Johnson is a Disaster' thread. lol.

No actually the general consensus in all the threads. I don’t want to be a jerk because It seems like you might be an intellectually disadvantaged individual. I probably need to stop because I’m now the guy picking on Corky. Sorry I misread this exchange, but it makes sense now.