Ben Johnson is a Disaster

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BroncoRedux said:
Sorry Weatherman, firing Ben Johnson would be a fool's errand. Like Haskins, he will win over time, unlike Clem, he'll do it without shaming the University. Why do I say that? Parents and their children who have committed to play for Minnesota could have played for many other schools. Some of his current and future recruits could have played for any basketball school. Yet, they chose Ben and Minnesota. They know better than you and the other detractors on this thread who the man Ben Johnson is and will continue to be. There will be slow improvement as the season continues, mark my words. Actually is will continue tonight against MSU. My advise, take a rest, learn some patience and be thankful Mark Coyle was and is smarter than you.
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Mark, is that you?!
 

BroncoRedux said:
Sorry Weatherman, firing Ben Johnson would be a fool's errand. Like Haskins, he will win over time, unlike Clem, he'll do it without shaming the University. Why do I say that? Parents and their children who have committed to play for Minnesota could have played for many other schools. Some of his current and future recruits could have played for any basketball school. Yet, they chose Ben and Minnesota. They know better than you and the other detractors on this thread who the man Ben Johnson is and will continue to be. There will be slow improvement as the season continues, mark my words. Actually is will continue tonight against MSU. My advise, take a rest, learn some patience and be thankful Mark Coyle was and is smarter than you.
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Even though I think Ben was a terrible hire and continues to prove why with on the court results, I don’t think he should be fired until after next season if this type of play continues. I don’t see it getting much better next year because I don’t think Ben is capable of running a few guys off and bringing in at least 2 high level guards to get us there.

I have plenty of patience, but this is really bad. People are actually happy we looked more competitive by only losing by 18. That’s depressing. Coaches have been fired after a few years while winning more at lower level programs.
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
Even though I think Ben was a terrible hire and continues to prove why with on the court results, I don’t think he should be fired until after next season if this type of play continues. I don’t see it getting much better next year because I don’t think Ben is capable of running a few guys off and bringing in at least 2 high level guards to get us there.

I have plenty of patience, but this is really bad. People are actually happy we looked more competitive by only losing by 18. That’s depressing. Coaches have been fired after a few years while winning more at lower level programs.
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The worst part of this for the longer term appears to be his lack of vision on roster construction.
IF the two guys -Fox and Ihnen were not injured- all we would have is two more forwards. Now that we have seen these guys in action- there is no speed at the guard position- and this is really the second straight year of that. Last year he was able to pull it off to a degree because Willis, while not speedy, was so crafty with what I would call an "old man" game.

College basketball is won with guards, guards, guards first and foremost. Looking forward to next year we have Fox and Ihnen, plus Evans another big and then Christie another 6-5 kid. So at the moment there is no fix to this mess at the guard position on the horizon. Didn't Ben and staff realize this when they were recruiting?

Finally, the style of ball they are running really requires a guard that can break other teams down off the dribble. We don't have anything close to that on this roster.
 


bga1 said:
The worst part of this for the longer term appears to be his lack of vision on roster construction.
IF the two guys -Fox and Ihnen were not injured- all we would have is two more forwards. Now that we have seen these guys in action- there is no speed at the guard position- and this is really the second straight year of that. Last year he was able to pull it off to a degree because Willis, while not speedy, was so crafty with what I would call an "old man" game.

College basketball is won with guards, guards, guards first and foremost. Looking forward to next year we have Fox and Ihnen, plus Evans another big and then Christie another 6-5 kid. So at the moment there is no fix to this mess at the guard position on the horizon. Didn't Ben and staff realize this when they were recruiting?

Finally, the style of ball they are running really requires a guard that can break other teams down off the dribble. We don't have anything close to that on this roster.
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I think we can account for this with good schemes. Guys are slow on the dribble, but can usually move a lot faster without the ball. Especially if we are setting good screens to free guys up. Ihnen would be a good example, probably not quick with the ball, but is fast moving end to end without it. We just don't do anything to get guys open cutting to the basket. They run a solid give and go with Garcia sometimes, but aside from that guys are rarely found moving to the basket. Ramberg actually does this better than pretty much everyone on the team oddly enough. Our length and strength has not translated well to the defensive end yet either. Improved in the first half last night, but then gave up multiple easy buckets coming out of half time. Did we make any adjustments?

Example: Purdue's guards didn't seem extraordinarily quick, but they move the ball and have good screen action to free guys up and put them in good spots to score on a regular basis.
 

bga1 said:
The worst part of this for the longer term appears to be his lack of vision on roster construction.
IF the two guys -Fox and Ihnen were not injured- all we would have is two more forwards. Now that we have seen these guys in action- there is no speed at the guard position- and this is really the second straight year of that. Last year he was able to pull it off to a degree because Willis, while not speedy, was so crafty with what I would call an "old man" game.

College basketball is won with guards, guards, guards first and foremost. Looking forward to next year we have Fox and Ihnen, plus Evans another big and then Christie another 6-5 kid. So at the moment there is no fix to this mess at the guard position on the horizon. Didn't Ben and staff realize this when they were recruiting?

Finally, the style of ball they are running really requires a guard that can break other teams down off the dribble. We don't have anything close to that on this roster.
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Completely agree.

The challenge going forward is to find a style of play to survive with this mix of players on both offense and defense. Is Ben willing to change his systems to better utilize the talents his players have and to mask their deficiencies?
 



GopherWeatherGuy said:
Even though I think Ben was a terrible hire and continues to prove why with on the court results, I don’t think he should be fired until after next season if this type of play continues. I don’t see it getting much better next year because I don’t think Ben is capable of running a few guys off and bringing in at least 2 high level guards to get us there.

I have plenty of patience, but this is really bad. People are actually happy we looked more competitive by only losing by 18. That’s depressing. Coaches have been fired after a few years while winning more at lower level programs.
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Word. Comparing Johnson to Haskins is intellectually dishonest. Clem was Keady's top assistant at Purdue, then did amazing work at Western Kentucky in his first head job. He had the Hilltoppers in the top 20. Think about that. He would have been hired by someone very quickly if the Gophers hadn't snagged him. Ben had had the reputation as an up-and-coming assistant coach, and he did nice work with local talent evaluation and recruiting for Pitino, but there was little indication he was ready to be a head coach, much less a top assistant for a high-major program.
 

formerlybis said:
If you look on t-rank this morning, the first 13 B1G teams are all in the top 87 (and Michy is 11th on that list which means weakling Wednesday). Then there’s 104 teams between Nebraska and the 14th team.

I think most people are saying they agree that getting the young talent some experience is important. But, I keep thinking about Rutgers when Pikiell took over- they didn’t win much, but their defensive numbers were good and improving. No one sees what the Gophers are trying to be good at. Even last year, which everyone seems to perceive as “grittier”, the numbers sucked.

I would view progress as getting either offensive or defensive efficiency into the double digits of rank. They’re currently 225 and 165.
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12/12 update: Minnesota is now ranked #202 on t-rank, and is #230 and #175 in offense and defensive efficiency.

13th place Nebraska is at #83.

Northwestern actually has a worse offense than MN at #283, but their defense is #15. Rutgers is only a slightly less bad offense than MN at #203, but their defense is #3.

Minnesota is the worst defense in the league, by about 60 ranking spots. There are 8 B1G teams in the top 50.

If Rutgers and Northwestern can get to this level on defense - and I'm using them instead of others because they also suck on offense, plus you can make a pretty good argument that their talent is not better than MN - why can't the Gophers?
 

VanillaThunder said:
Completely agree.

The challenge going forward is to find a style of play to survive with this mix of players on both offense and defense. Is Ben willing to change his systems to better utilize the talents his players have and to mask their deficiencies?
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Zone defense and low post offense. This video seems ideal for our guys:
 




bga1 said:
The worst part of this for the longer term appears to be his lack of vision on roster construction.
IF the two guys -Fox and Ihnen were not injured- all we would have is two more forwards. Now that we have seen these guys in action- there is no speed at the guard position- and this is really the second straight year of that. Last year he was able to pull it off to a degree because Willis, while not speedy, was so crafty with what I would call an "old man" game.

College basketball is won with guards, guards, guards first and foremost. Looking forward to next year we have Fox and Ihnen, plus Evans another big and then Christie another 6-5 kid. So at the moment there is no fix to this mess at the guard position on the horizon. Didn't Ben and staff realize this when they were recruiting?

Finally, the style of ball they are running really requires a guard that can break other teams down off the dribble. We don't have anything close to that on this roster.
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Lots of fans here proclaimed positionless bb. Now they wont own up to it. They said Henly could man the "point"..
 

formerlybis said:
12/12 update: Minnesota is now ranked #202 on t-rank, and is #230 and #175 in offense and defensive efficiency.

13th place Nebraska is at #83.

Northwestern actually has a worse offense than MN at #283, but their defense is #15. Rutgers is only a slightly less bad offense than MN at #203, but their defense is #3.

Minnesota is the worst defense in the league, by about 60 ranking spots. There are 8 B1G teams in the top 50.

If Rutgers and Northwestern can get to this level on defense - and I'm using them instead of others because they also suck on offense, plus you can make a pretty good argument that their talent is not better than MN - why can't the Gophers?
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How is defense measured? Is there a correlation between having an extremely high defense and a very low offense (I’m just thinking teams that really slow it down and limit the possessions)…again not sure how how they define these rankings.

In my mind I always go to the Virginia’s of the world. Really grind it out…but by limiting the possessions so much they can lose to an underdog who gets hot and builds a lead as they don’t play at a tempo to come
Back from medium deficits (10-14 pts)…think how they lost to a 16 seed in the tourney
 

Crappie said:
Lots of fans here proclaimed positionless bb. Now they wont own up to it. They said Henly could man the "point"..
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I like Cooper but after the first few times I saw him, I knew we might be in trouble because of how slow he is for a PG. I really think all of these guys would looks so much better with a quick PG. As much as it was sometimes tough to watch Carr dribbling himself into oblivion- he would look pretty darn good on this team. Teams had to double Carr to stop him from getting into the lane. Carrington and Henley would both be better off with a quick PG and Payne would be seeing some dimes dropped his way for sure.
 

It is amazing once you get out of the small but passionate fan forums for the Gophers, how little interest there is in Gopher basketball. It has been a long slow slide since being a focal point in this town under Clem, but still startling when you take a step back and take the pulse of your average MN sports fan(not your average Minnesotan). I know people that used to have season tickets, attend games or watch religiously, who honestly can't name a current Gopher player. Pretty sad.

I was never a big fan of this hire, but it is what it is and he isn't going anywhere soon. I hope that there is learning that can be done on the job and that Ben can find an identity for his teams. The other possibility, and one that has saved a coach or two, is that we will get a monster recruit or a monster transfer that covers up all the other woe's and makes him look like a good coach. Either way I would think that he has another year and half, maybe 2 and a half to have one of these things happen. Seems like a good guy, hope it works out.
 

WoodburyTim said:
It is amazing once you get out of the small but passionate fan forums for the Gophers, how little interest there is in Gopher basketball. It has been a long slow slide since being a focal point in this town under Clem, but still startling when you take a step back and take the pulse of your average MN sports fan(not your average Minnesotan). I know people that used to have season tickets, attend games or watch religiously, who honestly can't name a current Gopher player. Pretty sad.

I was never a big fan of this hire, but it is what it is and he isn't going anywhere soon. I hope that there is learning that can be done on the job and that Ben can find an identity for his teams. The other possibility, and one that has saved a coach or two, is that we will get a monster recruit or a monster transfer that covers up all the other woe's and makes him look like a good coach. Either way I would think that he has another year and half, maybe 2 and a half to have one of these things happen. Seems like a good guy, hope it works out.
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It's completely dead. I legitimately think the women's volleyball team now has more fans/viewers for their games then men's basketball. I don't mean that as a shot at the VB team, but that really shouldn't happen and wouldn't anywhere else.
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
How is defense measured? Is there a correlation between having an extremely high defense and a very low offense (I’m just thinking teams that really slow it down and limit the possessions)…again not sure how how they define these rankings.

In my mind I always go to the Virginia’s of the world. Really grind it out…but by limiting the possessions so much they can lose to an underdog who gets hot and builds a lead as they don’t play at a tempo to come
Back from medium deficits (10-14 pts)…think how they lost to a 16 seed in the tourney
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These are *efficiency* rankings, meaning they are tempo-free (if it helps, think of it as "points per possession"). There is literally zero correlation between tempo and efficiency. Alabama and Arkansas have highly rated defenses and they are among the highest tempos in college basketball. The highest rated offense is Arizona and they are 4th fastest. The #2 offense is Purdue and they are 300th,
 

formerlybis said:
These are *efficiency* rankings, meaning they are tempo-free (if it helps, think of it as "points per possession"). There is literally zero correlation between tempo and efficiency. Alabama and Arkansas have highly rated defenses and they are among the highest tempos in college basketball. The highest rated offense is Arizona and they are 4th fastest. The #2 offense is Purdue and they are 300th,
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Correct. So most do Def Eff or Off Eff which is points per 100 possessions. If you want to be positive, PP and Carrington are our top 2 players in defensive efficiency, in theory that is good for the future that two freshman are your top defenders already. On the flip side, those two are sitting at 101 and 102 Def Eff this year. For context, Iowa (who most regard as a PUTRID defensive team) only have 1 player over 100 and most of their team is in the low-mid 90s. Looking further a top def team like Miss St most of their guys are in the 80s. So a guy like Tolu Smith this year is 117 off eff and 76 def eff. So over 100 possessions his team is a whopping 41 points better than the opposition. Meanwhile, Battle is 90/110 so every 100 possessions he is on the floor the other team is 20 points better. If you want to go even further how poor this year has been, Samuels is -34, but numbers wise he is still a better option than Henley who is a shockingly terrible -36. And this is with games included against the likes of St Francis, WMU and CMU. I shutter to think what some of these could get to in the B1G.

So I am interested to the glass half fullers, what are we supposed to make of this? Don't tell me "its just youth!" because Payne is one of our only positive players, while vets like Battle and Samuels are getting destroyed. I think this says a ton about having absolutely no game plan on either side of the ball. If a guy like Battle was getting owned on defense ok well I dont think he is an elite defender i get that, but he should be able to score.
 

WoodburyTim said:
It is amazing once you get out of the small but passionate fan forums for the Gophers, how little interest there is in Gopher basketball. It has been a long slow slide since being a focal point in this town under Clem, but still startling when you take a step back and take the pulse of your average MN sports fan(not your average Minnesotan). I know people that used to have season tickets, attend games or watch religiously, who honestly can't name a current Gopher player. Pretty sad.

I was never a big fan of this hire, but it is what it is and he isn't going anywhere soon. I hope that there is learning that can be done on the job and that Ben can find an identity for his teams. The other possibility, and one that has saved a coach or two, is that we will get a monster recruit or a monster transfer that covers up all the other woe's and makes him look like a good coach. Either way I would think that he has another year and half, maybe 2 and a half to have one of these things happen. Seems like a good guy, hope it works out.
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This is fair and balanced, but man: we've gone from one guy who we were hoping could learn this job on the job to...the next guy who's even less experienced. This is demoralizing. As that other post notes, Gopher basketball is a post-apocalyptic wasteland in this state, and the loyal fans are being played for suckers by an administration who's taking us for granted.
 

leib0039 said:
Correct. So most do Def Eff or Off Eff which is points per 100 possessions. If you want to be positive, PP and Carrington are our top 2 players in defensive efficiency, in theory that is good for the future that two freshman are your top defenders already. On the flip side, those two are sitting at 101 and 102 Def Eff this year. For context, Iowa (who most regard as a PUTRID defensive team) only have 1 player over 100 and most of their team is in the low-mid 90s. Looking further a top def team like Miss St most of their guys are in the 80s. So a guy like Tolu Smith this year is 117 off eff and 76 def eff. So over 100 possessions his team is a whopping 41 points better than the opposition. Meanwhile, Battle is 90/110 so every 100 possessions he is on the floor the other team is 20 points better. If you want to go even further how poor this year has been, Samuels is -34, but numbers wise he is still a better option than Henley who is a shockingly terrible -36. And this is with games included against the likes of St Francis, WMU and CMU. I shutter to think what some of these could get to in the B1G.

So I am interested to the glass half fullers, what are we supposed to make of this? Don't tell me "its just youth!" because Payne is one of our only positive players, while vets like Battle and Samuels are getting destroyed. I think this says a ton about having absolutely no game plan on either side of the ball. If a guy like Battle was getting owned on defense ok well I dont think he is an elite defender i get that, but he should be able to score.
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I appreciate the level of detail in this analysis. When I point at you...what do you say..."because he get's on base.".
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
I appreciate the level of detail in this analysis. When I point at you...what do you say..."because he get's on base.".
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@leib0039 - if you want a project... what are the average Offense and Defensive eff per 100 possessions of the Sweet 16 teams over the last 10 years? It will be interesting to see how this has changed over the years as basketball has changed to a more free flowing, 3pt oriented game. I'll try to take up years 2012-2014
 

leib0039 said:
Correct. So most do Def Eff or Off Eff which is points per 100 possessions. If you want to be positive, PP and Carrington are our top 2 players in defensive efficiency, in theory that is good for the future that two freshman are your top defenders already. On the flip side, those two are sitting at 101 and 102 Def Eff this year. For context, Iowa (who most regard as a PUTRID defensive team) only have 1 player over 100 and most of their team is in the low-mid 90s. Looking further a top def team like Miss St most of their guys are in the 80s. So a guy like Tolu Smith this year is 117 off eff and 76 def eff. So over 100 possessions his team is a whopping 41 points better than the opposition. Meanwhile, Battle is 90/110 so every 100 possessions he is on the floor the other team is 20 points better. If you want to go even further how poor this year has been, Samuels is -34, but numbers wise he is still a better option than Henley who is a shockingly terrible -36. And this is with games included against the likes of St Francis, WMU and CMU. I shutter to think what some of these could get to in the B1G.

So I am interested to the glass half fullers, what are we supposed to make of this? Don't tell me "its just youth!" because Payne is one of our only positive players, while vets like Battle and Samuels are getting destroyed. I think this says a ton about having absolutely no game plan on either side of the ball. If a guy like Battle was getting owned on defense ok well I dont think he is an elite defender i get that, but he should be able to score.
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And Ben still won't start Payne...
 

cjbfbp said:
It can't be forgotten that Ben Johnson had to field an entirely new team in his first year and an almost completely new team in his second year. Very few coaches ever are confronted by that challenge.
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And how much of the challenge was self inflicted?
 


Bad Gopher said:
Honest to goodness, it would be nice to know someday what went down and why. If we take Coyle at his word, he hired his top available choice. If he's lying--whether to cover for Gabel or for some other reason--it's despicable, especially for a publicly-funded institution. The secrecy and any dishonesty is a way to keep pumping the accountability around until it evaporates.
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I don't believe this was Coyle's choice. Not for a minute. You and I have both worked for government agencies, you know how panels go sometimes. I've seen a number of panels where forces from above forced decisions down on the panel for their own various reasons. In state government, those reasons are often EEO related. Was it here? Who knows?

But I have never believed this was Coyle's choice, never will. We'll never hear otherwise though...
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
I don't believe this was Coyle's choice. Not for a minute. You and I have both worked for government agencies, you know how panels go sometimes. I've seen a number of panels where forces from above forced decisions down on the panel for their own various reasons. In state government, those reasons are often EEO related. Was it here? Who knows?

But I have never believed this was Coyle's choice, never will. We'll never hear otherwise though...
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Seconded. This hire was not in any discernible pattern of Coyle historical hiring.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
I don't believe this was Coyle's choice. Not for a minute. You and I have both worked for government agencies, you know how panels go sometimes. I've seen a number of panels where forces from above forced decisions down on the panel for their own various reasons. In state government, those reasons are often EEO related. Was it here? Who knows?

But I have never believed this was Coyle's choice, never will. We'll never hear otherwise though...
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I know enough to know that I don't know. I've heard all kinds of rumors and supposed inside information, half of which contradicts the other half. All we have to go on is speculation and circumstantial evidence. I wouldn't for a moment pretend I know anything.

From my own state government experience, everything we do is transparent, documented, and a matter of public record. This, however, was done behind closed doors and secretive, which is an abomination in my opinion.
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
@leib0039 - if you want a project... what are the average Offense and Defensive eff per 100 possessions of the Sweet 16 teams over the last 10 years? It will be interesting to see how this has changed over the years as basketball has changed to a more free flowing, 3pt oriented game. I'll try to take up years 2012-2014
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That's a big project. I can tell you that the #1 offenses for each of the last few years don't show much of a trend in either direction:

2011: 126.0
2012: 126.2
2013: 122,6
2014: 126.4
2015: 130.5 (This was the highest efficiency of this era - and it was Wisconsin)
2016: 124.3
2017: 127,4
2018: 125.7
2019: 124.4
2020: 121.3
2021: 125.9
2022: 122.7
So far this year: 120.7

Edit to add: these are adjusted to strength of schedule.
 

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