Ben Johnson is a Disaster

Donate To GopherHole

MennoSota said:
He will start making his shots and be just fine. You're going all nuclear after 10 games in his freshman year. Get some perspective and be like bga1, see us in 2025.
Click to expand...
Yep, I am with you, but this is no Sam Jacobson. Not sure if you were around back then or not, but he was a first round draft pick and was a top 15-ish player all time at Minnesota. I'd put him up there with Tucker, Bobby J, Willie, etc.

Carrington might turn out to be decent, but you are talking about Sam here.
 

Bad Gopher said:
I'll die on this hill. Some people have the knack for head coaching. It's a unique set of abilities. You know it when you see it.

The question I framed is, given a choice, would you hire someone with a not-all-that distinguished career as an assistant and who's never even been a lead assistant, or would you hire someone who's been a head coach and shown the knack for it? In my estimation, the latter is the lesser risk.
Click to expand...
Of the people on the Gophers actual "list" (Ben Johnson, Ben Jacobsen and Sam Mitchell allegedly) I'd have taken Ben J over Mitchell. I'd also take him over a HS coach, even if it is Damien Johnson. None of the above can hold a candle to Craig Smith, Brian Dutcher or Medved.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Thought exercise: was it ridiculous when the Gophers hired Doug Woog from the high school level? I never heard him compared to Gerry Faust; maybe he was and I missed it. I don't think it was the best hire, but it wasn't the worst, either.
Click to expand...
I agree with you on your thought process here, but the difference between MN high school hockey and D1 hockey isn't that much. It's huge when it comes to basketball or football.

Woog also coached at the national level, etc not just solely high school before he was named the coach at the U.
 

Wasn't the "concept" and/or "sales pitch" of Ben Johnson roughly like: "local guy who gets local guys, and will use that knowledge and try hard to get the best local guys to stay"?

So if 2022 and 2023 are the possible starts of that strategy working, we probably can't really expect it to work out on the court in 2022 and 2023?

That makes me think Coyle will give him 2024 to show it is working. Wild guess
 


Bad Gopher said:
The temptation is to dismiss DJ because he's young and black and coaches at a lower level. But when I listen to him talk, the guy knows his stuff. When he describes his offense and it's origins and his tactical influences...let's just say I've never heard Ben talk that articulately about strategy or approach to the game. Instead we get something about grit at his introductory press conference. If you found that lacking, you're not alone...and you'd be right. It was a nothing burger.

The video pieces I saw of Craig Smith were convincing, especially the segments taken at his practices. That guy has a method and is a splendid teacher. I've learned to trust my eyes and ears and horse sense.

Gerry Faust ran a football factory. They had the best players...which they had at Notre Dame, too, so he didn't completely fall flat on his face there. But it's another thing completely to coach a limited squad up. That's what you look for. That's this year's Utes.

Thought exercise: was it ridiculous when the Gophers hired Doug Woog from the high school level? I never heard him compared to Gerry Faust; maybe he was and I missed it. I don't think it was the best hire, but it wasn't the worst, either.
Click to expand...
Excellent retort. I like Damian. If I am a hiring manager, I'm not taking a high school coach into the highest level of the college profession in one leap, though. On the other hand, the bottom is so low that it would be the time to take a risk, as there is basically nothing to lose.

Good comparison on Wooger, but hockey is different than hoops or football, and a much smaller community. At the time, Gopher hockey was a glorified Minnesota all-star team that a high quality coach could succeed with. Wish the guy could have pulled it out against Harvard, though.
 

Gophers_4life said:
Wasn't the "concept" and/or "sales pitch" of Ben Johnson roughly like: "local guy who gets local guys, and will use that knowledge and try hard to get the best local guys to stay"?

So if 2022 and 2023 are the possible starts of that strategy working, we probably can't really expect it to work out on the court in 2022 and 2023?

That makes me think Coyle will give him 2024 to show it is working. Wild guess
Click to expand...
I'm sure he will, but with the transfer portal being what it is. Sucking for 3 years should never happen if you are indeed ever gonna be successful.
That said, bring in 3 talented guards(I mean real talent) with next years class and things will turn on a dime.
 

Gophers_4life said:
Wasn't the "concept" and/or "sales pitch" of Ben Johnson roughly like: "local guy who gets local guys, and will use that knowledge and try hard to get the best local guys to stay"?

So if 2022 and 2023 are the possible starts of that strategy working, we probably can't really expect it to work out on the court in 2022 and 2023?

That makes me think Coyle will give him 2024 to show it is working. Wild guess
Click to expand...
Unless there is scandal or massive defections from the program, he gets through 24. Bet on it.
 

Go Gophs said:
I'm sure he will, but with the transfer portal being what it is. Sucking for 3 years should never happen if you are indeed ever gonna be successful.
That said, bring in 3 talented guards(I mean real talent) with next years class and things will turn on a dime.
Click to expand...
THREE talented guards in one class? Almost no chance. One outstanding, and one satisfied with capable back up minutes would be as much as we can expect. Three are not coming at once, especially through the portal.
 



Why are we comparing any of our FR with Sam Jacobson? Jacobson was so much better than any of our current FR. Not to diminish our current FR, because I think they have potential, but none of them will sniff the nba and Jacobson was a 1st round pick.

Also, if we need to wait until 2025 to see results, it ain't worth waiting for...
 

Holy Man said:
Excellent retort. I like Damian. If I am a hiring manager, I'm not taking a high school coach into the highest level of the college profession in one leap, though. On the other hand, the bottom is so low that it would be the time to take a risk, as there is basically nothing to lose.

Good comparison on Wooger, but hockey is different than hoops or football, and a much smaller community. At the time, Gopher hockey was a glorified Minnesota all-star team that a high quality coach could succeed with. Wish the guy could have pulled it out against Harvard, though.
Click to expand...
As you and I have discussed, DJ might not ever want to coach college. That said, he did like my tweet suggesting the Gophs consider adding him as an assistant.

I've probably mentioned my sister before. A number of years ago, she was cajoled to take on a middle school team that maybe won one or two games the year before...or maybe none. She coached them to a .500 record. I said to her, good gosh, you seem to have the knack for this! She basically said, no bleeping way. She had a first-grade teaching job at that school and a family to raise. She was not interested in a coaching career. Lots of people would be good at that kind of thing, but few want to make it their life's work.
 

Holy Man said:
THREE talented guards in one class? Almost no chance. One outstanding, and one satisfied with capable back up minutes would be as much as we can expect. Three are not coming at once, especially through the portal.
Click to expand...
Right, my point is that we don't have much for them right now and I don't see us improving until this part of the roster is greatly improved.
 

Bad Gopher said:
As you and I have discussed, DJ might not ever want to coach college. That said, he did like my tweet suggesting the Gophs consider adding him as an assistant.

I've probably mentioned my sister before. A number of years ago, she was cajoled to take on a middle school team that maybe won one or two games the year before...or maybe none. She coached them to a .500 record. I said to her, good gosh, you seem to have the knack for this! She basically said, no bleeping way. She had a first-grade teaching job at that school and a family to raise. She was not interested in a coaching career. Lots of people would be good at that kind of thing, but few want to make it their life's work.
Click to expand...
Just because you’re good at math doesn’t mean you love doing math.
 



Gophers7633 said:
Why are we comparing any of our FR with Sam Jacobson? Jacobson was so much better than any of our current FR. Not to diminish our current FR, because I think they have potential, but none of them will sniff the nba and Jacobson was a 1st round pick.

Also, if we need to wait until 2025 to see results, it ain't worth waiting for...
Click to expand...
As a kid growing up in the area, I loved Sam Jacobson. I spent hours in my driveway as a kid shooting "threes" pretending to be Sam Jacobson.

That said, Payne is putting up similar numbers (probably better) to Jacobson as a FR and he is playing with much worse players around him. He is probably better built for an NBA career as well.

Obviously that's way down the line, but Pharrel Payne is special.
 

Go Gophs said:
Yep, I am with you, but this is no Sam Jacobson. Not sure if you were around back then or not, but he was a first round draft pick and was a top 15-ish player all time at Minnesota. I'd put him up there with Tucker, Bobby J, Willie, etc.

Carrington might turn out to be decent, but you are talking about Sam here.
Click to expand...
I have watched since the Musselman era. Tell me what you recall of Jacobson in his freshman year in '94.

1994 stats:
Sam Jacobson FR F 6' 4" 7.7 Pts, 4.8 Reb, 1.2 Ast

That's over the entire season.
Certainly Jacobson could jump out of the gym and Carrington is more earth bound, but you have to give Carrington a chance. You simply don't have enough data to go by. Second, Jacobson came into a well established system, not Clem's second year as a coach. Your expectations then are wildly exaggerated.
 


A few thoughts:

  • Nothing against Ben Johnson, I hope he does a phenomenal job. I also congratulate him on getting the job.
  • From a UofM perspective, hiring Ben was extremely risky. The UofM took a chance on Pitino, who had limited equivalent experience. Ultimately, they terminated the relationship.
  • They then hired someone with even less proven experience.
  • Ben may turn out to be the best hire ever, but what foresight did the UofM have to make the hire when there was no benchmark? Words?
  • How much money would any assistant coach accept to coach a Big Ten basketball coaching position? Clearly having that on your resume is of some personal value.
  • Is pay so slotted that a public university is throwing around major $ without consideration? For example, would Ben Johnson have done the job for half as much? Who had leverage? I would assert that Ben must be a great negotiator, or that $ was of no true object to the U of M.
  • How is the attendance this year relative to peers? I have no idea, but this must be part of the equation.
  • Whatever the case, I hope Ben and company prove the detractors wrong and the supporters right, but it could turn out to be both an unnecessarily risky hire and a great hire at the same time.
 

benlaur said:
A few thoughts:

  • Nothing against Ben Johnson, I hope he does a phenomenal job. I also congratulate him on getting the job.
  • From a UofM perspective, hiring Ben was extremely risky. The UofM took a chance on Pitino, who had limited equivalent experience. Ultimately, they terminated the relationship.
  • They then hired someone with even less proven experience.
  • Ben may turn out to be the best hire ever, but what foresight did the UofM have to make the hire when there was no benchmark? Words?
  • How much money would any assistant coach accept to coach a Big Ten basketball coaching position? Clearly having that on your resume is of some personal value.
  • Is pay so slotted that a public university is throwing around major $ without consideration? For example, would Ben Johnson have done the job for half as much? Who had leverage? I would assert that Ben must be a great negotiator, or that $ was of no true object to the U of M.
  • How is the attendance this year relative to peers? I have no idea, but this must be part of the equation.
  • Whatever the case, I hope Ben and company prove the detractors wrong and the supporters right, but it could turn out to be both an unnecessarily risky hire and a great hire at the same time.
Click to expand...
There are major optics issues with drastically underpaying people. You're right that Ben would probably have done the job for half the salary but paying him that much doesn't make the U look good for a variety of reasons - - some of them cutting at the exact reason he was hired (arguably).
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
There are major optics issues with drastically underpaying people. You're right that Ben would probably have done the job for half the salary but paying him that much doesn't make the U look good for a variety of reasons - - some of them cutting at the exact reason he was hired (arguably).
Click to expand...
Good point.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
There are major optics issues with drastically underpaying people. You're right that Ben would probably have done the job for half the salary but paying him that much doesn't make the U look good for a variety of reasons - - some of them cutting at the exact reason he was hired (arguably).
Click to expand...
That is the problem with today: Everyone focused on looking good and few doing good.
 



Bob_Loblaw said:
There are major optics issues with drastically underpaying people. You're right that Ben would probably have done the job for half the salary but paying him that much doesn't make the U look good for a variety of reasons - - some of them cutting at the exact reason he was hired (arguably).
Click to expand...
This is true for the inverse where one is drastically overpaid. Take for instance lawyers...
 

MennoSota said:
This is true for the inverse where one is drastically overpaid. Take for instance lawyers...
Click to expand...
The inverse? You think there major optic issues with drastically overpaying people? I don't think there are any real optics on how much a lawyer gets paid. I don't think there would be public outrage or scrutiny if you got a lawyer for cheaper (or more expensive).

If your whole point is to say that lawyers are overpaid (which isn't the inverse of my post), that's cool. Don't hire them. Public sector attorneys, generally, don't make money at all. Private sector attorneys make as much as people are willing to pay them. There are tons of lawyers who don't make much at all.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
As a kid growing up in the area, I loved Sam Jacobson. I spent hours in my driveway as a kid shooting "threes" pretending to be Sam Jacobson.

That said, Payne is putting up similar numbers (probably better) to Jacobson as a FR and he is playing with much worse players around him. He is probably better built for an NBA career as well.

Obviously that's way down the line, but Pharrel Payne is special.
Click to expand...

The Jewish Jordan is 3X better vs. Payne. Payne will be solid but likely won't sniff the NBA due to his shooting
 


Ben is playing with 2 veteran players down this year. He has 1 player that played meaningful minutes last year on this team. He has one player from the previous coach’s recruits (TT) that wouldn’t likely have been recruited by Ben and really is limited in what he contributes. He has an 8 man rotation that features 4 freshmen, that have 11 college games under their belts. He has a really good recruiting class next year coming in. And you people are calling him a COMPLETE disaster? In my best Mike Tice voice, I suggest you all “calm down”.
 

Golden Shower said:
Ben is playing with 2 veteran players down this year. He has 1 player that played meaningful minutes last year on this team. He has one player from the previous coach’s recruits (TT) that wouldn’t likely have been recruited by Ben and really is limited in what he contributes. He has an 8 man rotation that features 4 freshmen, that have 11 college games under their belts. He has a really good recruiting class next year coming in. And you people are calling him a COMPLETE disaster? In my best Mike Tice voice, I suggest you all “calm down”.
Click to expand...

Woe is Ben, but every other 2nd year coach inherited the same situation and are running laps around Ben. Let’s continue to celebrate 20 pt losses though because they weren’t 30 point losses against fringe top 25 teams who we were competing with, and even beating under a poor head coach who was fired just a few years ago.

It is a COMPLETE disaster, as is evidenced by the echo you hear from people whispering in the barn during a game.
 


Bad Gopher said:
I'll die on this hill. Some people have the knack for head coaching. It's a unique set of abilities. You know it when you see it.

The question I framed is, given a choice, would you hire someone with a not-all-that distinguished career as an assistant and who's never even been a lead assistant, or would you hire someone who's been a head coach and shown the knack for it? In my estimation, the latter is the lesser risk.
Click to expand...
If the choice is Ben Johnson or Damian Johnson, I choose neither.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom