Ben Is the Coach - We Need Some Patience

[formerlybis]

A portal center would not be a third center. We have only one, Payne. Garcia is not a center and it is misuse of his time on the floor to having him defend a post.

Having a true post backup means Garcia and Payne are on the floor together a good part of the game. That is desirable.

We are replacing spots held by Samuels, Ramberg, Evans, and Thompson. We have plenty of space for two guards and a center.

We'll just agree to disagree that Garcia is incapable of defending a post. Teach him, because at his size, it's a question of putting the work in (and he really has to in order to be draftable).

And, just because those are the spots being replaced doesn't mean you have to replace with the same type of player. Not even counting the addition of the 3 redshirts, you've probably got at least 100 of the 120 frontcourt minutes with Payne/Garcia/Battle/JOJ at the 3/4/5. Most of these bigs have multiple years left, too, so you're set for at least next year.

Assuming an 8-man rotation, you'll have 4 players playing the 2 G positions, and maybe someone who can play a 2/3 when they want to go small for matchup purposes. That's where the team is thin and could use major upgrades. Spend all your recruiting capital there.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

A portal center would not be a third center. We have only one, Payne. Garcia is not a center and it is misuse of his time on the floor to having him defend a post.

Having a true post backup means Garcia and Payne are on the floor together a good part of the game. That is desirable.

We are replacing spots held by Samuels, Ramberg, Evans, and Thompson. We have plenty of space for two guards and a center.

Even better. I think I was responding to someone who said Garcia can guard Centers. He is not a center (defensively). He probably scores the best though when the opposing center guards him though as he can pull him away from the basket then use his quickness to attack the rim, or if the center says off, he can shoot.

 

[GopherBlood777]

A portal center would not be a third center. We have only one, Payne. Garcia is not a center and it is misuse of his time on the floor to having him defend a post.

Having a true post backup means Garcia and Payne are on the floor together a good part of the game. That is desirable.

We are replacing spots held by Samuels, Ramberg, Evans, and Thompson. We have plenty of space for two guards and a center.

Technically we have 0 if you go by what they list as their position. Payne has been listed as F all year. Not sure why players like Payne who are obviously a center want to run from that title. Something to do with pro prospects I suppose? Just own it and be the best center you can be!

 

[Gopherfan84]

Have you watched him play post defense? Rarely every stops anyone. He is fine around the perimeter. Garcia is our best player, but let’s not pretend he is a defender

This isn’t even worth arguing as we have different understandings of post defense and the game in general.

 

[Gopherfan84]

He's a total liability defensively. Against Maryland, I don't know if he got one stop all night (when he was backed down). And I've noticed when he does get the stop; he rarely gets the rebound.

Bad against Maryland. Everyone was. He’s our best defender this year and it’s not really close

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

Bad against Maryland. Everyone was. He’s our best defender this year and it’s not really close

Being the best on a bad defensive team does not make him a good defender.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

We'll just agree to disagree that Garcia is incapable of defending a post. Teach him, because at his size, it's a question of putting the work in (and he really has to in order to be draftable).

And, just because those are the spots being replaced doesn't mean you have to replace with the same type of player. Not even counting the addition of the 3 redshirts, you've probably got at least 100 of the 120 frontcourt minutes with Payne/Garcia/Battle/JOJ at the 3/4/5. Most of these bigs have multiple years left, too, so you're set for at least next year.

Assuming an 8-man rotation, you'll have 4 players playing the 2 G positions, and maybe someone who can play a 2/3 when they want to go small for matchup purposes. That's where the team is thin and could use major upgrades. Spend all your recruiting capital there.

If your CBJ (the GM of the team as well as the coach), you also have to think worst case scenarios sometimes.

What happens if TT transfers and Payne gets hurt next year with an ankle sprain and it out for a month? Who do they have play C (they shift Garcia obviously)...but then are we really expecting Fox or even Ihnen to play Center? This is where another big body (hopefully weighing 270+) comes into play. I would trade Fox for this unknown body in a heartbeat. Fox is replaceable with what we have on the roster today, what we don't have on the roster is size / beef to guard opponents size / beef.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

How many opponents really have a traditional "big man" as center? Sure, Purdue and Illinois always seem to find some 6'11" 280lb bruiser - but a lot of D1 programs tend to run out lineups that don't have a traditional post player. Payne is plenty big and strong enough to be a B1G post - he just has to learn to play a little smarter so that he's not always in foul trouble.

if you're assessing the Gophers' needs, I would put another big man a lot lower on the list.

If they bring in two portal players, I would put needs as #1 PG and #2 outside shooter.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Being the best on a bad defensive team does not make him a good defender.

Agree with the premise disagree with your take. Dawson has been the best and most consistent defender. He had some duds (Maryland) and isn’t lockdown but he’s an above average/good defender. He does an excellent job positioning and stays in front well. He’s good at screen coverages, but that isn’t always seen cause of how bad literally every one of our guards defends. Williard didn’t pick on Garcia. He set screens until he ISO’d Cooper and JOJ

 

[Spaulding!No!]

From playing on a historically bad team to coaching one. It’s nuts!

 

[howeda7]

I see Coach Mo is still coaching at BC. Go poach him.

 

[atsgopher]

He is actually at 13.5% winning percentage right now. So there is about a 20% drop in winning percentage from Clem's first two seasons.

Clem never took last in the Big 10 and he won 20% more Big 10 games than CBJ. But you're right, Clem was pretty bad in his first two years, Ben has just been worse.

Are you counting winning percentage in Division 1?
In 86 we had 7 wins in division 1.

I could swear we were last in 1986…. insert joke (or Dpo argument) about 94-98 being the worse winning percentage in Gophers history.

I loved that 1986 squad; Even though they sucked. Glad I followed them, it really paid off. Made 89 and 90 years more special. I recall my mom teaching me that its important to be tough. Learn how to lose, before you really understand how to win. Despite me protesting that I didnt care if they won; I really liked Richard Coffey.

 

[Bad Gopher]

Are you counting winning percentage in Division 1?
In 86 we had 7 wins in division 1.

I could swear we were last in 1986…. insert joke (or Dpo argument) about 94-98 being the worse winning percentage in Gophers history.

I loved that 1986 squad; Even though they sucked. Glad I followed them, it really paid off. Made 89 and 90 years more special. I recall my mom teaching me that its important to be tough. Learn how to lose, before you really understand how to win. Despite me protesting that I didnt care if they won; I really liked Richard Coffey.

Telling you what: we all knew Willie Burton was a top-100 recruit, but he didn't necessarily have his full game as an underclassman. He was an adept offensive rebounder and flashed a little offensively, but there was some disappointment among some fans with his performance early on. Keep that in mind, y'all, when evaluating this year's freshmen.

 

[atsgopher]

Telling you what: we all knew Willie Burton was a top-100 recruit, but he didn't necessarily have his full game as an underclassman. He was an adept offensive rebounder and flashed a little offensively, but there was some disappointment among some fans with his performance early on. Keep that in mind, y'all, when evaluating this year's freshmen.

Was trying to remember if Newburn was good then?

Don’t really recall him till later (although I know he was around).

I really remember Shik; could it be because I heard a lot of the games on radio? Any insight?

 

[Dakota2]

We'll just agree to disagree that Garcia is incapable of defending a post. Teach him, because at his size, it's a question of putting the work in (and he really has to in order to be draftable).

And, just because those are the spots being replaced doesn't mean you have to replace with the same type of player. Not even counting the addition of the 3 redshirts, you've probably got at least 100 of the 120 frontcourt minutes with Payne/Garcia/Battle/JOJ at the 3/4/5. Most of these bigs have multiple years left, too, so you're set for at least next year.

Assuming an 8-man rotation, you'll have 4 players playing the 2 G positions, and maybe someone who can play a 2/3 when they want to go small for matchup purposes. That's where the team is thin and could use major upgrades. Spend all your recruiting capital there.

We will definitely disagree. Garcia does not have the size to play post. He is too thin and can't take up space. The last thing he needs to work on for the pros is learning to defend a center. Would never be played that way.

I also disagree that Ben would play only eight players with a decent roster. He has done that out of necessity. With depth you ideally play nine or ten, especially if you have a good guard to press the ball up the floor.

Thorson might even be able to find a decent defense if guys understand they will get rest now and then.

So again, he needs two guards and a post backup.

 

[Dakota2]

Technically we have 0 if you go by what they list as their position. Payne has been listed as F all year. Not sure why players like Payne who are obviously a center want to run from that title. Something to do with pro prospects I suppose? Just own it and be the best center you can be!

What he's called matters not. Anybody watching the past month knows his strength in playing down low.

 

[Bad Gopher]

Was trying to remember if Newburn was good then?

Don’t really recall him till later (although I know he was around).

I really remember Shik; could it be because I heard a lot of the games on radio? Any insight?

Mel was the same class as Burton, but he lost his freshman year of eligibility to what they called Proposition 48. So, as Clem put it, he had to find himself in three years instead of four.

 

[Dakota2]

How many opponents really have a traditional "big man" as center? Sure, Purdue and Illinois always seem to find some 6'11" 280lb bruiser - but a lot of D1 programs tend to run out lineups that don't have a traditional post player. Payne is plenty big and strong enough to be a B1G post - he just has to learn to play a little smarter so that he's not always in foul trouble.

if you're assessing the Gophers' needs, I would put another big man a lot lower on the list.

If they bring in two portal players, I would put needs as #1 PG and #2 outside shooter.

Three, not two. Spots from Evans, Samuels, Ramberg, and TT.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

Well, what?

It's okay to stay in Minnesota. I realize that relocation and reinvention are wonderful things but having a solid foundation requires work.

The joke was on me and my moniker since I moved

 

[bga1]

Was trying to remember if Newburn was good then?

Don’t really recall him till later (although I know he was around).

I really remember Shik; could it be because I heard a lot of the games on radio? Any insight?

Newbern was one of my favorite players but he struggled as a sophomore getting in sync with Clem and he got yoyo'd off the floor often for turnovers. He was a combo guard, a scorer who Clem needed at the point. He and Burton really came into their own as juniors.

 

[atsgopher]

Mel was the same class as Burton, but he lost his freshman year of eligibility to what they called Proposition 48. So, as Clem put it, he had to find himself in three years instead of four.

Appreciate that.

 

[atsgopher]

Newbern was one of my favorite players but he struggled as a sophomore getting in sync with Clem and he got yoyo'd off the floor often for turnovers. He was a combo guard, a scorer who Clem needed at the point. He and Burton really came into their own as juniors.

Mel was the same class as Burton, but he lost his freshman year of eligibility to what they called Proposition 48. So, as Clem put it, he had to find himself in three years instead of four.

Either of y’all recall if we recruited Glenn Rice? I have a vague memory of it. Might be some connection with Willie I’m thinking of….

I also don’t remember Marlon Maxey with Gophs. Just UTEP and Wolves. Why’d he bolt (too bad for us)?

 

[bga1]

Either of y’all recall if we recruited Glenn Rice? I have a vague memory of it. Might be some connection with Willie I’m thinking of….

I also don’t remember Marlon Maxey with Gophs. Just UTEP and Wolves. Why’d he bolt (too bad for us)?

We were close to getting Rice. I don't recall why Marlon bolted but he was here for sure. There were a lot of big time recruits that Clem got close to getting because he sold well in their homes.
Allen Iverson was close to coming here. Chris Webber was also real close, he loved Clem. Obviously he was close on El Amin as well. If only....

 

[Gopherfan84]

We will definitely disagree. Garcia does not have the size to play post. He is too thin and can't take up space. The last thing he needs to work on for the pros is learning to defend a center. Would never be played that way.

I also disagree that Ben would play only eight players with a decent roster. He has done that out of necessity. With depth you ideally play nine or ten, especially if you have a good guard to press the ball up the floor.

Thorson might even be able to find a decent defense if guys understand they will get rest now and then.

So again, he needs two guards and a post backup.

Dawson is only 10 lbs lighter than Trayce Jackson Davis (Trayce is 2 years older too). He’s not huge but it’s not like he’s rail thin either.

Also 8 guys is deep in todays college basketball.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

Old wins

 

[Bad Gopher]

Either of y’all recall if we recruited Glenn Rice? I have a vague memory of it. Might be some connection with Willie I’m thinking of….

I also don’t remember Marlon Maxey with Gophs. Just UTEP and Wolves. Why’d he bolt (too bad for us)?

The Gophers were finalists for both Rice and Tommy Hammonds (Georgia Tech) that year. With them and without the Madison incident, that's a national title contender.

 

[atsgopher]

The Gophers were finalists for both Rice and Tommy Hammonds (Georgia Tech) that year. With them and without the Madison incident, that's a national title contender.

Absolutely.

Even in 1989, when both the coference was brutal, and the tourney was far deeper.

 

[Holy Man]

The Gophers were finalists for both Rice and Tommy Hammonds (Georgia Tech) that year. With them and without the Madison incident, that's a national title contender.

Wasn’t Rice a Dutch recruit? My recollection is that he was in the bag and went on some European trip with an all-star team and staff didn’t think they needed to spend the money and the rest is history. That’s per Dutcher himself as I recall.

 

[Bad Gopher]

Wasn’t Rice a Dutch recruit? My recollection is that he was in the bag and went on some European trip with an all-star team and staff didn’t think they needed to spend the money and the rest is history. That’s per Dutcher himself as I recall.

That story is too good not to be true. One way or another, I'm going with it.

 

[Dakota2]

Dawson is only 10 lbs lighter than Trayce Jackson Davis (Trayce is 2 years older too). He’s not huge but it’s not like he’s rail thin either.

Also 8 guys is deep in todays college basketball.

Check some box scores of top 25 teams.