Ben Is the Coach - We Need Some Patience

[Allshade]

Normal and usual thinking leads to normal and usual outcomes.

On a personal level, it is tough to judge whether or not he "deserves" more time. So far, the outcome is indisputable because it is historically bad. I personally don't have the true inside of what is being sold and what the true capacity is to deliver. So from afar, without said information, I personally would give him more time.

However, if the belief from the inside is this cannot be turned around, then there is literally a fiduciary responsibility to the people who fund the operation to make a change. From the outside, the UofM's admin looks incredibly amateurish and overwhelmed.

There is no fiduciary duty that the university or Coyle has to anyone.

 

[Allshade]

Could it be possible that Henley said, "hey man, Minneapolis sucks."

Yes.

 

[Bad Gopher]

There is no fiduciary duty that the university or Coyle has to anyone.

They're a public entity subsidized by general tax revenue. Whatever that means is what it means. To me, that means they should be honest and transparent about everything that goes on, except things that are legitimately confidential.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Check some box scores of top 25 teams.

I do and have. I watch a lot of games too. Most play 8 if the game is close. Depth is hard to come by with the portal and kids transferring all the time. A team who plays 8 is plenty deep. It’s when they play 6 or 7 it’s a team that lacks depth. On box scores you’ll see teams get into 9-10 and if it’s a blow out, there are injuries, or extreme foul trouble.

 

[cjbfbp]

There is no fiduciary duty that the university or Coyle has to anyone.

Well, they may have a fiduciary duty not to squander, or misuse, resources but a fiduciary duty to produce competitive teams? Never heard of that one. If that were the case, the infamous former 76ers GM, Sam Hinkie, would have faced a class action lawsuit. His goal was to lose as much as possible for as long as it took to stockpile enough high draft picks and his actions pursued that goal with a startling audacity.

 

[formerlybis]

Check some box scores of top 25 teams.

Challenge accepted. I decided to do an analysis of the top 25 teams on t-rank. I am defining a rotational player as one who plays at least 10 minutes per game (25% of the available minutes). I also decided to limit the analysis to conference games only to take out the noise from early season cupcaking. Here's the list with each team's rotation:

Houston	8​
Alabama	7​
Tennessee	10​
UCLA	6​
Purdue	9​
St Marys	6​
CT	8​
SDSU	9​
Ariz	7​
Baylor	6​
Gonzaga	8​
Kansas	6​
Texas	8​
Marquette	7​
Creighton	6​
Arkansas	7​
TAMU	8​
WVU	8​
Xavier	7​
TCU	9​
Kansas St.	7​
Iowa St.	8​
Auburn	9​
Memphis	10​
Maryland	7​

The average is 7.6. Only 6 of the 25 play more than 8.

 

[Gophs24]

Check some box scores of top 25 teams.

just looking at last nights top 25 matchups....meaningful minutes
Marquetee played 7 guys
Butler Played 7
Iowa played 7
indiana played 8
Texas tech played 8
Kansas played 7
SDSU played 10
Boise State played 7
Texas AM Played 9
Ole Miss played 10
Clemson played 8
Virginia Played 9

of the 12 teams that were involved with top 25 action 4 of them played more than 8 guys....and some of them only played 5 minutes

i think in most cases playing 8 and trusting 7 is the norm

 

[formerlybis]

If your CBJ (the GM of the team as well as the coach), you also have to think worst case scenarios sometimes.

What happens if TT transfers and Payne gets hurt next year with an ankle sprain and it out for a month? Who do they have play C (they shift Garcia obviously)...but then are we really expecting Fox or even Ihnen to play Center? This is where another big body (hopefully weighing 270+) comes into play. I would trade Fox for this unknown body in a heartbeat. Fox is replaceable with what we have on the roster today, what we don't have on the roster is size / beef to guard opponents size / beef.

This is maybe piling on to SON's post, but if there is a 270 lb'er that's not a stiff, he will have a lot better offers than backing up a rising sophomore. There are maybe more of these guys that are stiffs that you could develop, but not alot, frankly.

 

[cjbfbp]

i think in most cases playing 8 and trusting 7 is the norm

That may be the case but no one should ever be afraid of doing something because it isn't the "norm." Dr. Tom Davis often used a platoon system when he coached Iowa. Lots of guys played in lots of games and no one averaged more than slightly over 30 minutes per game. With that kind of system most players believe they are going to play each game, morale should be better, legs should be fresher, and a better bench should develop.

 

[disco]

That may be the case but no one should ever be afraid of doing something because it isn't the "norm." Dr. Tom Davis often used a platoon system when he coached Iowa. Lots of guys played in lots of games and no one averaged more than slightly over 30 minutes per game. With that kind of system most players believe they are going to play each game, morale should be better, legs should be fresher, and a better bench should develop.

Didn't Tubby use a platoon system and everyone complained about it then?

 

[cjbfbp]

Didn't Tubby use a platoon system and everyone complained about it then?

I didn't watch Tubby's teams until the last two years of his tenure. I can't say that occurred to me at the time but I guess he did play a fair number of players regularly now that I look at the numbers.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

Ben on the fan at noon.

Look forward to the transcript

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

If your CBJ (the GM of the team as well as the coach), you also have to think worst case scenarios sometimes.

What happens if TT transfers and Payne gets hurt next year with an ankle sprain and it out for a month? Who do they have play C (they shift Garcia obviously)...but then are we really expecting Fox or even Ihnen to play Center? This is where another big body (hopefully weighing 270+) comes into play. I would trade Fox for this unknown body in a heartbeat. Fox is replaceable with what we have on the roster today, what we don't have on the roster is size / beef to guard opponents size / beef.

How many 4/5 270+ D1 players are there to get? I think they’re far less plentiful than you imagine.

You don’t need to be that size to play good D in the post.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Didn't Tubby use a platoon system and everyone complained about it then?

There were at least a few seasons where he would do the 5 person hockey line change with two units. When the team was playing well, announcers would talk about how great that approach was because it kept guys rested and let two complete units develop chemistry. When the team struggled, announcers would talk about how bad that approach was because it spread out the minutes too much and prevented anyone from getting into a rhythym.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

Wasn’t Rice a Dutch recruit? My recollection is that he was in the bag and went on some European trip with an all-star team and staff didn’t think they needed to spend the money and the rest is history. That’s per Dutcher himself as I recall.

Yes, Rice played at Michigan from 85-89 and Clem’s first year was 86.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

That may be the case but no one should ever be afraid of doing something because it isn't the "norm." Dr. Tom Davis often used a platoon system when he coached Iowa. Lots of guys played in lots of games and no one averaged more than slightly over 30 minutes per game. With that kind of system most players believe they are going to play each game, morale should be better, legs should be fresher, and a better bench should develop.

I wish some team would pick up the mantle Nolan Richardson left and full court press for the whole game -“40 minutes of hell”

 

[skiumah1]

Tubby and Pitino both reached points where we knew the ceiling. There was nothing more to drag out.

Even though it's been awful, at least I don't feel that way with Ben yet. Hope baby.

 

[fan of Ray Williams]

If your CBJ (the GM of the team as well as the coach), you also have to think worst case scenarios sometimes.

What happens if TT transfers and Payne gets hurt next year with an ankle sprain and it out for a month? Who do they have play C (they shift Garcia obviously)...but then are we really expecting Fox or even Ihnen to play Center? This is where another big body (hopefully weighing 270+) comes into play. I would trade Fox for this unknown body in a heartbeat. Fox is replaceable with what we have on the roster today, what we don't have on the roster is size / beef to guard opponents size / beef.

Careful what you wish for. I’m certain you can still recall the two backups from last season, Charlie and Danny.

 

[Wet_Blanket_Guy]

Careful what you wish for. I’m certain you can still recall the two backups from last season, Charlie and Danny.

Charlie Daniels may have better defense than TT

 

[Bigg Robb]

Didn't Tubby use a platoon system and everyone complained about it then?

It wasn't as much the 'platoon' system as it was his hockey line sub strategy. He'd bring in 5 guys at the same time multiple times a game. It was frustrating to watch

 

[Dakota2]

Challenge accepted. I decided to do an analysis of the top 25 teams on t-rank. I am defining a rotational player as one who plays at least 10 minutes per game (25% of the available minutes). I also decided to limit the analysis to conference games only to take out the noise from early season cupcaking. Here's the list with each team's rotation:

Houston	8​
Alabama	7​
Tennessee	10​
UCLA	6​
Purdue	9​
St Marys	6​
CT	8​
SDSU	9​
Ariz	7​
Baylor	6​
Gonzaga	8​
Kansas	6​
Texas	8​
Marquette	7​
Creighton	6​
Arkansas	7​
TAMU	8​
WVU	8​
Xavier	7​
TCU	9​
Kansas St.	7​
Iowa St.	8​
Auburn	9​
Memphis	10​
Maryland	7​

The average is 7.6. Only 6 of the 25 play more than 8.

The flaw in your analysis is 10 minutes per game minimum. Does not tell the story as good teams get good play from guys playing less than 10 minutes.

 

[Dakota2]

That may be the case but no one should ever be afraid of doing something because it isn't the "norm." Dr. Tom Davis often used a platoon system when he coached Iowa. Lots of guys played in lots of games and no one averaged more than slightly over 30 minutes per game. With that kind of system most players believe they are going to play each game, morale should be better, legs should be fresher, and a better bench should develop.

This is especially true if you want to feature pressure defense. Would also be true if your roster has 5-7 comparably good bench players. Why use two of them only?

 

[Dakota2]

I didn't watch Tubby's teams until the last two years of his tenure. I can't say that occurred to me at the time but I guess he did play a fair number of players regularly now that I look at the numbers.

Tubby came to town saying he was going to defend the entire court 40 minutes a game. He did it for a couple years, subbing three to five guys at a time.

Later, Tubby became disinterested and often appeared to be someone's uncle invited to watch the game with the team.

 

[formerlybis]

The flaw in your analysis is 10 minutes per game minimum. Does not tell the story as good teams get good play from guys playing less than 10 minutes.

I can see you're a guy who will never admit anyone has a point that contradicts your narrative, without ever bringing data.

 

[Dakota2]

How many 4/5 270+ D1 players are there to get? I think they’re far less plentiful than you imagine.

You don’t need to be that size to play good D in the post.

No, but you need to be stronger than Garcia.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

The flaw in your analysis is 10 minutes per game minimum. Does not tell the story as good teams get good play from guys playing less than 10 minutes.

That's not true. If players are playing less than 10 minutes, they're not playing in every game and are not rotational players. Even Ramberg and TT are averaging more than 10 minutes per game.

 

[Dakota2]

I can see you're a guy who will never admit anyone has a point that contradicts your narrative, without ever bringing data.

I readily admit you have a point. It's just not a good one because it doesn't take into account guys who play less than 10 minutes but still add value to the team.

I can see you're a guy who will never admit anyone has a point that contradicts your narrative, without ever bringing data.

 

[GopherBlood777]

That's not true. If players are playing less than 10 minutes, they're not playing in every game and are not rotational players. Even Ramberg and TT are averaging more than 10 minutes per game.

TT and Ramberg should probably be appearing in more games. No reason they couldn't give us a hard 4-8 mins every night. We should have been using our bench to check the starters all year, especially with the younger guys. Ben has mismanaged rotations pretty much all year and here we are. He assembled a team and then tried to play a style counter intuitive to the few skills we do have. Also, any game in which Battle plays more than 32 minutes is too much. If you want him to play down a position and chase around guards, no way he is going to be effective at 38-40 minutes. This is Pitino 2.0. At least I could agree with the starting lineups Pitino threw out there, but he didn't know how to use or develop his bench either.

 

[formerlybis]

That's not true. If players are playing less than 10 minutes, they're not playing in every game and are not rotational players. Even Ramberg and TT are averaging more than 10 minutes per game.

Technically, by Dakota2's anyone-who's-played-in-non-garbage-time-counts assumption, the Gophers are 10-deep this year. Ya see, Ben doesn't have a short bench after all.

 

[CentralGopher]

It wasn't as much the 'platoon' system as it was his hockey line sub strategy. He'd bring in 5 guys at the same time multiple times a game. It was frustrating to watch

Usually when they would be on a run and kill any momentum