Ben Is the Coach - We Need Some Patience

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formerlybis said:
The last thing they need is another C, even if TT leaves. Garcia should be able to guard 5s for whatever amount of time Payne is sitting. Some combo of the remaining 6 PFs on the team can slide over to guard the 4 when either of them needs a break. But one of them should be on the floor at all times.
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Should and can are drastically different. I think Parker Fox is going to be in a world of hurt if he is trotted out to guard B10 centers
 

cjbfbp said:
No, it doesn't. The argument is only about whether Johnson deserves to be fired after two years instead of the normal minimum of three based on what we know today. This has nothing to do with whether Johnson should have been hired. He was hired so give him the usual minimum.
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Normal and usual thinking leads to normal and usual outcomes.

On a personal level, it is tough to judge whether or not he "deserves" more time. So far, the outcome is indisputable because it is historically bad. I personally don't have the true inside of what is being sold and what the true capacity is to deliver. So from afar, without said information, I personally would give him more time.

However, if the belief from the inside is this cannot be turned around, then there is literally a fiduciary responsibility to the people who fund the operation to make a change. From the outside, the UofM's admin looks incredibly amateurish and overwhelmed.
 

benlaur said:
Normal and usual thinking leads to normal and usual outcomes.

On a personal level, it is tough to judge whether or not he "deserves" more time. So far, the outcome is indisputable because it is historically bad. I personally don't have the true inside of what is being sold and what the true capacity is to deliver. So from afar, without said information, I personally would give him more time.

However, if the belief from the inside is this cannot be turned around, then there is literally a fiduciary responsibility to the people who fund the operation to make a change. From the outside, the UofM's admin looks incredibly amateurish and overwhelmed.
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Well said.
 


Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
Should and can are drastically different. I think Parker Fox is going to be in a world of hurt if he is trotted out to guard B10 centers
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To clarify, I meant that Garcia is the auxiliary 5 to Payne. No disagreement about Fox, or really any of the other PFs being able to eat many minutes at the 5. There are very few programs that have a 3rd C who actually plays much. Backcourt is a way higher priority.
 


benlaur said:
Normal and usual thinking leads to normal and usual outcomes.

On a personal level, it is tough to judge whether or not he "deserves" more time. So far, the outcome is indisputable because it is historically bad. I personally don't have the true inside of what is being sold and what the true capacity is to deliver. So from afar, without said information, I personally would give him more time.

However, if the belief from the inside is this cannot be turned around, then there is literally a fiduciary responsibility to the people who fund the operation to make a change. From the outside, the UofM's admin looks incredibly amateurish and overwhelmed.
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I hear that sometimes from people but I don't know what that means. Hiring PJ Fleck was an "inside the box" hire. He was the best MAC coach and we had an opening. Nick Saban was a pretty obvious hire at Bama.

In my opinion, you just do your best to try to land the best possible coach you can find. You try not to be confined by the "box" but you also don't push so hard on thinking outside the "box" that you're undervaluing mundane positive attributes.
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
I hear that sometimes from people but I don't know what that means. Hiring PJ Fleck was an "inside the box" hire. He was the best MAC coach and we had an opening. Nick Saban was a pretty obvious hire at Bama.

In my opinion, you just do your best to try to land the best possible coach you can find. You try not to be confined by the "box" but you also don't push so hard on thinking outside the "box" that you're undervaluing mundane positive attributes.
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By this thinking, I once again fall back to Smith and Dutcher. Even Medved would have been a far simpler hire that makes much more sense. I know this has been said multiple times, but once again, why be so risky?
 

cjbfbp said:
We know who killed the victim because a couple of witnesses saw him eating with three guys at a restaurant on the evening of the murder. The killer(s) is(are) one or more of those three.

Are you serious? There are multiple possible reasons for the ordering of transfers.

I remember Both and Brandon being among the last to leave but I seem to remember Gabe leaving earlier. Robbins left fairly late.
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The ones who jumped into the portal right away werent staying or were told to go. The others who waited gave it a chance to at least listen to him, they chose other spots and that’s fine.
 



Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
The issue with starting Payne and Garcia at the same time (while it should happen) is that who do you bring off the bench to play Center? If we go with this lineup, we are agreeing to give Thompson about 10 minutes a game…and we know he isn’t a center.
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How about they both play 30 minutes. Garcia plays C when Payne goes out for 5 mins each half… Basketball rotations are not like hockey.
Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
The gophers for the complete log game of bigs are completely lacking any real size outside of Payne who can defend bigs. Garcia and Thompson are matadors on defense against bigs with size. Another poor roster construction CBJ issue. A portal target should be a center (6”10-7’1 who is 260+ and is defense focused and can bang). I didn’t see Evans banging due to his frail frame, but center depth is an issue.
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Garcia is a way better defender than you are giving him credit for.
 

formerlybis said:
To clarify, I meant that Garcia is the auxiliary 5 to Payne. No disagreement about Fox, or really any of the other PFs being able to eat many minutes at the 5. There are very few programs that have a 3rd C who actually plays much. Backcourt is a way higher priority.
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Agree. Guards run college basketball. Just saying if we are going to have a stiff as a 3rd center, make it one who weighs 270 and isn’t a string bean
 

Gopherfan84 said:
How about they both play 30 minutes. Garcia plays C when Payne goes out for 5 mins each half… Basketball rotations are not like hockey.

Garcia is a way better defender than you are giving him credit for.
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Have you watched him play post defense? Rarely every stops anyone. He is fine around the perimeter. Garcia is our best player, but let’s not pretend he is a defender
 

Gopherfan84 said:
The ones who jumped into the portal right away werent staying or were told to go. The others who waited gave it a chance to at least listen to him, they chose other spots and that’s fine.
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All right. That's a decent explanation. I agree with the description of those who entered early (although I doubt many were told to go). They were going somewhere else (except for possibly Mashburn who specifically followed Pitino). For those who left later, I suspect they were leaving if the right position came up: Brandon going home, Gach returning to his previous school, and Robbins following his uncle to a prestigious university in Nashville.
 



Bob_Loblaw said:
I hear that sometimes from people but I don't know what that means. Hiring PJ Fleck was an "inside the box" hire. He was the best MAC coach and we had an opening. Nick Saban was a pretty obvious hire at Bama.

In my opinion, you just do your best to try to land the best possible coach you can find. You try not to be confined by the "box" but you also don't push so hard on thinking outside the "box" that you're undervaluing mundane positive attributes.
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Bob, given that he is already the coach, there are things the general public has learned and there are things the players, assistants and admin has learned. The general public can look and see the program is performing historically bad and is not hitting it out of the park on the recruiting side.

Those inside the program may have the feeling that coach Johnson is a star in the making and he will obviously right the ship or they may feel the exact opposite. Obviously that "inside" information should make for a more informed position than wins and losses as a stand alone measure.

The problem with a zero head coaching experience coach starting poorly makes the road ahead even tougher. At this point, you have to be selling faith and playing time because there is no tangible evidence of success for a recruit to see.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
The ones who jumped into the portal right away werent staying or were told to go. The others who waited gave it a chance to at least listen to him, they chose other spots and that’s fine.
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**IF** anyone was told to go, no one should think that a highly compensated coach with guarantees should be held to a different standard than a college kid.
 

benlaur said:
However, if the belief from the inside is this cannot be turned around, then there is literally a fiduciary responsibility to the people who fund the operation to make a change. From the outside, the UofM's admin looks incredibly amateurish and overwhelmed.
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Well, from the standpoint of football and hockey, the athletic department looks pretty good and that may be enough for now (for the administration and the general public).

Perhaps those inside the administration have no great faith that Johnson can be a winner here but they're willing to allow him to remain a placeholder for the time being. Maybe they're waiting until they can accumulate enough funding to terminate him and hire someone with a higher probability of winning.
 

benlaur said:
Bob, given that he is already the coach, there are things the general public has learned and there are things the players, assistants and admin has learned. The general public can look and see the program is performing historically bad and is not hitting it out of the park on the recruiting side.

Those inside the program may have the feeling that coach Johnson is a star in the making and he will obviously right the ship or they may feel the exact opposite. Obviously that "inside" information should make for a more informed position than wins and losses as a stand alone measure.

The problem with a zero head coaching experience coach starting poorly makes the road ahead even tougher. At this point, you have to be selling faith and playing time because there is no tangible evidence of success for a recruit to see.
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Inside info doesn't really apply at this point. There is 2 years of on the court performance to judge from. The admin may have felt strong about the hire initially and good for them. Not sure how this season can be explained away, even to the most empathetic of supporters inside the building.
 

Dakota2 said:
Anyone who signs a LOI was successfully recruited. If they leave without enrolling you look for the reason. In the case of Evans, he either got discouraged by the horrible season that failed to show improvement or an offer of money.

I suspect both were factors but that the dismal season was the biggest issue.
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Could it be possible that Henley said, "hey man, Minneapolis sucks."
 

Gopherfan84 said:
How about they both play 30 minutes. Garcia plays C when Payne goes out for 5 mins each half… Basketball rotations are not like hockey.

Garcia is a way better defender than you are giving him credit for.
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He's a total liability defensively. Against Maryland, I don't know if he got one stop all night (when he was backed down). And I've noticed when he does get the stop; he rarely gets the rebound.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
What was your favorite Dennis Evans Gopher memory?
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Gosh, so many it's hard to choose; but I think it's this one:

Evans said:
"I find ants fascinating and dress like Tim Duncan. It's all about comfort.
I'm a gold medallist, I want to major in business and next year I'll be a Golden Gopher at the University of Minnesota."
 

benlaur said:
Normal and usual thinking leads to normal and usual outcomes.

On a personal level, it is tough to judge whether or not he "deserves" more time. So far, the outcome is indisputable because it is historically bad. I personally don't have the true inside of what is being sold and what the true capacity is to deliver. So from afar, without said information, I personally would give him more time.

However, if the belief from the inside is this cannot be turned around, then there is literally a fiduciary responsibility to the people who fund the operation to make a change. From the outside, the UofM's admin looks incredibly amateurish and overwhelmed.
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Apt description. No urgency at all. Decades of failure at the top.
 

Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
The issue with starting Payne and Garcia at the same time (while it should happen) is that who do you bring off the bench to play Center? If we go with this lineup, we are agreeing to give Thompson about 10 minutes a game…and we know he isn’t a center.

The gophers for the complete log game of bigs are completely lacking any real size outside of Payne who can defend bigs. Garcia and Thompson are matadors on defense against bigs with size. Another poor roster construction CBJ issue. A portal target should be a center (6”10-7’1 who is 260+ and is defense focused and can bang). I didn’t see Evans banging due to his frail frame, but center depth is an issue.
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Nail squarely struck by hammer. Payne needs a true post backup. Keeping Payne out of foul trouble and strong means he plays under 30 minutes a game. A high portal priority is a backup center, allowing Payne and Garcia to play together.
 

GopherBlood666 said:
I agree however I would have TT play the backup C minutes. He is the next closest thing on the roster and there is no way anyone can argue we would be worse. TT has as many conference wins as a starter as the current squad has this season.
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Thompson won't be here next year. Ben has signalled clearly he isn't playing.
 


benlaur said:
In this case, my definition of success is the final outcome.
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Overall success, yes. Try to understand I am breaking coaching into two parts, recruiting and shaping the players you have. His recruing has been in strong point. The product on the floor is poor.
 


Dakota2 said:
Thompson won't be here next year. Ben has signalled clearly he isn't playing.
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My comments were regarding playing time this year. Do you think EVERYONE playing big minutes this year will be back next year?
 


Wet_Blanket_Guy said:
Agree. Guards run college basketball. Just saying if we are going to have a stiff as a 3rd center, make it one who weighs 270 and isn’t a string bean
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A portal center would not be a third center. We have only one, Payne. Garcia is not a center and it is misuse of his time on the floor to having him defend a post.

Having a true post backup means Garcia and Payne are on the floor together a good part of the game. That is desirable.

We are replacing spots held by Samuels, Ramberg, Evans, and Thompson. We have plenty of space for two guards and a center.
 


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