Badgers/AZ State

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tikited said:
I'm with you on this. The knee does not look like it was 100% down even after watching it ten times. Very close to being about three different things at once which is why it was a stupid decision by the qb.
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Exactly. I'm guessing that when Stave goes into McDonald's he orders the Filet o' Big Quarter Mac Pounder, and gets pissed off when they serve him Chicken Nuggets.
 

tato2001 said:
Exactly. I'm guessing that when Stave goes into McDonald's he orders the Filet o' Big Quarter Mac Pounder, and gets pissed off when they serve him Chicken Nuggets.
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That's why they have #'s for meal deals. Should make things easier for guys like him.
 

scher215 said:
To me, Stave just made it VERY unclear he was downing the ball. You can see it with still shots and slow motion, but live - it isn't all that clear.

I think it was Robert Smith on ESPN who mentioned to even tell the official pre-snap you were downing it. Stave should have snapped it and literally fell down on the center of the field there. Not taken a knee. Then handed the ball right to the official. Lined up and spiked it to kick the FG.

Watching it live in full speed, the knee is fairly unclear and I can see why the officials and ASU had confusion. It looks to me like he rushed it way more than he needed to and didn't make his intentions clear.
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i agree, it was very unclear to me as well. but it was not unclear to the refs. they whistle the ball dead right away -- probably because stave did tell them that he intended to kneel before the play. then the refs stand around and let the defensive players jump on a dead ball and delay the game. stave did exactly what he was supposed to do. he kneeled and then set the ball down as quickly as possible so that they could get another snap in. the play call was fine by anderson and executed fine by stave. the only fault in this case lies with the refs.
 


bigtenchamps1899 said:
i agree, it was very unclear to me as well. but it was not unclear to the refs. they whistle the ball dead right away -- probably because stave did tell them that he intended to kneel before the play. then the refs stand around and let the defensive players jump on a dead ball and delay the game. stave did exactly what he was supposed to do. he kneeled and then set the ball down as quickly as possible so that they could get another snap in. the play call was fine by anderson and executed fine by stave. the only fault in this case lies with the refs.
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The kneeling was extremely questionable. I personally do not think he kneeled and that it should have been called a fumble. Blame the refs all you want.........but that was a boneheaded play by Stave. And while you want to blame ASU for delay of game......I didn't see Sconnies offense rushing to get lined up for another play until there was around two or three seconds left on the clock. Another mistake.
 


Badgers screw up and get hosed. Could this be the start of something good?
 

Why the hell wouldn't you just fall down there? He was knocked to the ground a hundred times already in the game. What's the difference if you go to the ground one more time?

I wonder if any of the refs will be suspended/fired for this one. They should be.
 

Wisconsin's offense once again struggled to get going in the first half, similar to ours this year, but had it not been for the botched snap by ASU they would have been down to start the second half. Wisconsin can blame themselves for the loss, the knee was unclear to me and I'm coach Anderson's postage he kept mentioning it was spiked. I didn't see Stave spike the ball either he set it down, I think the ASU D did what any other well coached team would do if they saw it the same way the viewers did.
 

I watched the play repeatedly and still have not seen anything that indicates to me his knee went down at full speed or slower. If there's a link to a better angle somewhere, please share it. So to me, that was Stave's first mistake. He ABSOLUTELY didn't spike the ball. He set it on the ground.

The second mistake is not hustling to the line to get ready for the next snap and spike when there were 8 or 9 seconds left. Even if Stave's knee had gone down, the clock would continue to run. To draw the delay of game penalty, your offense better be trying to get set for the play. As it is, they didn't try to get set until 2 seconds left on the clock. By then it was too late.

The refs were bad and mishandled the situation. Stave and the Badger offense and coaching were worse and probably deserved their fate.
 




CP Gopher said:
Is it possible the game was "fixed"?
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No. No chance.

year of the gopher said:
I watched the play repeatedly and still have not seen anything that indicates to me his knee went down at full speed or slower. If there's a link to a better angle somewhere, please share it. So to me, that was Stave's first mistake. He ABSOLUTELY didn't spike the ball. He set it on the ground.

The second mistake is not hustling to the line to get ready for the next snap and spike when there were 8 or 9 seconds left. Even if Stave's knee had gone down, the clock would continue to run. To draw the delay of game penalty, your offense better be trying to get set for the play. As it is, they didn't try to get set until 2 seconds left on the clock. By then it was too late.

The refs were bad and mishandled the situation. Stave and the Badger offense and coaching were worse and probably deserved their fate.
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Couple points. One, this was delicious because you know there are delusional folks over there that thought this was the year they win a national title. This loss was for them. Secondly, I pin 5% of the loss on the coaches for not making a smart decision or having their guys prepared and the other 95% right on Stave. I didn't see his knee hit the ground, but that's immaterial here. The ref's called it down. What he needed to do is immeadiately get the team lined up, over the moron in black who was lying on the ball and start a play. Whether the refs let him or not. But letting 15 seconds run off the clock in unacceptable. I'd like to ask you this. Would AJ McCarron for Bama have handled this differently? I say without a doubt. The best QB's are aware of the situation and keep it all together. This is the downside of all plays being called by the sideline, especially after the defense is set. The QB isn't forced to think very much any more and in this case it cost Wisconsin a potential win...
 

I've been watching football a long time and have never seen what Stave did defined as kneeling. It should have been a fumble. The ASU players were well within their right to jump on the ball. Stave panicked. His team lost.
 

highwayman said:
I've been watching football a long time and have never seen what Stave did defined as kneeling. It should have been a fumble. The ASU players were well within their right to jump on the ball. Stave panicked. His team lost.
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1) There are a number of images that show definitively that Stave did get his knee down
2) It doesn't matter if he actually kneeled anyway, since the rule is that the player have to simulate/make the kneeling motion to end the play.
3) BOTH of those things are STILL immaterial because the refs blew the play dead anyway. So even if it had been a fumble, which it definitely wasn't, it wouldn't have mattered.

I'm still a big fan of how that game played out, but the badgers have something of a legit gripe, even if a better-prepared and/or smarter QB/team would have been able to deal with it and line up anyway, which would have forced the refs hand regarding the delay-of-game call.
 



I don't understand why they didn't just kick the field goal. You have no time outs; centering the ball for what's already a chip shot seems like an unnecessary risk.
 

RedPoo said:
1) There are a number of images that show definitively that Stave did get his knee down
2) It doesn't matter if he actually kneeled anyway, since the rule is that the player have to simulate/make the kneeling motion to end the play.
3) BOTH of those things are STILL immaterial because the refs blew the play dead anyway. So even if it had been a fumble, which it definitely wasn't, it wouldn't have mattered.

I'm still a big fan of how that game played out, but the badgers have something of a legit gripe, even if a better-prepared and/or smarter QB/team would have been able to deal with it and line up anyway, which would have forced the refs hand regarding the delay-of-game call.
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Please provide links for #1 and #2. I haven't seen a photo that shows Stave's knee conclusively down, even after a google search. And I haven't seen anyone post a rule that says it's okay to "simulate" a kneel down. You may well be right on both accounts, but I'd like to see the evidence.

I understand one official blew a whistle, but the others were uncertain about what had happened so clearly it wasn't blown loudly and Stave's kneel down was not obvious to all the officials.
 


year of the gopher said:
Please provide links for #1 and #2. I haven't seen a photo that shows Stave's knee conclusively down, even after a google search. And I haven't seen anyone post a rule that says it's okay to "simulate" a kneel down. You may well be right on both accounts, but I'd like to see the evidence.

I understand one official blew a whistle, but the others were uncertain about what had happened so clearly it wasn't blown loudly and Stave's kneel down was not obvious to all the officials.
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#1 - check out the image of the cover story at http://www.offtackleempire.com/

#2 - NCAA Rule 4, Section 1, Article 3(o): "A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead … When a ball carrier simulates placing his knee on the ground."
 

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i guess either i am watching a different game or many of you all are letting you hatred for the badgers cloud your judgement.

1. stave clearly kneels.

2. both the ref and the umpire blow their whistles right as stave sits the ball down and the umpire is clearly running toward the ball to spot it.

3. again, i don't know what game everyone else was watching, but every badger runs back to their line just after the whistle blows. the linemen can't get in position to snap because there are five devils standing around the ball. but they are all there ready to go.

4. the asu players know that it is down as well, or at least they know that the ball was dead. they hesitate, stare at the ball and each other and then jumped on it.

the refs clearly blew it and then ran away instead of correcting their mistake.

edit: not only does stave clearly kneel, the ref saw that he kneeled and pointed to the ground to say it is down with 10 seconds to go and heads back to his position for the next snap, which he assumes will happen in a matter of seconds. the umpire, who's job it is to spot the ball is clearly trying to get the players off the ball at 9 seconds to spot the ball, but then when the ball is spotted he, inexplicably, holds his hand up to keep the badgers from snapping for two more seconds.
 


bigtenchamps1899 said:
i guess either i am watching a different game or many of you all are letting you hatred for the badgers cloud your judgement.

1. stave clearly kneels.

2. both the ref and the umpire blow their whistles right as stave sits the ball down and the umpire is clearly running toward the ball to spot it.

3. again, i don't know what game everyone else was watching, but every badger runs back to their line just after the whistle blows. the linemen can't get in position to snap because there are five devils standing around the ball. but they are all there ready to go.

4. the asu players know that it is down as well, or at least they know that the ball was dead. they hesitate, stare at the ball and each other and then jumped on it.

the refs clearly blew it and then ran away instead of correcting their mistake.
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I agree refs blew it, the rule is clear should have been down, etc.

I think the other point is, there were things the Badgers could have done to avoid the ref screw up and the ASU delay. Not that they should have to.

1) Stave had enough time to fall down in the middle of the field (a la Tom Brady and NE)

2. Stave had enough time to then hand the ball right to the official, instead of setting it on the field.

3. Do more to get the next play snapped and make it even more obvious ASU was delaying the game.

I don't think ASU jumped on it to delay the game, I think they were legitimately confused as to what was going on. The refs could have fixed that or Stave could have done some things as well. Not saying that's his responsibility, but refs are human and you can't always assume it will be handled correctly by them.
 

After watching the video a few more times I do think there is a chance that they got the short end of the stick on that play, however this happens in games all the time to teams. It sucks for them but its the sport and these things happen. Wisconsin, if they were truly the superior team, shouldn't have let the game get to that point.

I would say the same thing about our Gophers, and while my hate for the Badgers may play some role in my earlier judgment on the play it still comes down to finishing the game before you leave it up to the ref's. It's like the old boxing say about not leaving the fight in the hands of the judges.

Gophers are 3-0 with a test this week, time to focus on that and move on.
 

positively4thstreet said:
I don't understand why they didn't just kick the field goal. You have no time outs; centering the ball for what's already a chip shot seems like an unnecessary risk.
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By doing what they did, they run a lot of risk. If there was a false start or had that been deemed an intentional grounding, they could have had a 10 second run off of the clock.

Over thinking on WI. part.
 



Finally saw Stave's knee down...

On BTN tape stop motion. But it was the fastest genuflection since France's Henry IV said "Paris is worth a mass."
 


The important question is not whether or not Stave's knee actually touched the ground. The ref ruled him down, so the call was fine for Wisconsin. I think there issue is the confusion and the lack of delay of game call on the ASU player who jumped on the ball. My problem with that logic is that, if the ASU player did not see the knee hit the ground, then he had a good faith belief that there was a fumble. If he thought it was a fumble, he should be trying to cover the ball, even if the ref says the player is down, because if they review a possible fumble, they look to see if one team clearly recovered. In that instance, I think that a delay of game call would be pretty harsh.
 



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